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Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline
[quote=Braxton][quote=BuckettMonkey]
One answer: Lore.


For consistency then are you against the ability to turn off customisation restrictions? I'm not aware of any lore that says there are tomato elves with bright red skin and a frizz of green hair but we can make them.

It seems a strange hill to die on to insist that for your enjoyment of the game other players shouldn't be allowed a greater range of customisation options, particularly when the game already lets you make characters that have skin and hair colours that don't match lore.


It gives the setting more consistency those are racial distinct features if one dislike such feature why chose that race in the first place? It is not like everything must look varied as humans. Otherwise what could stop me to make a white skinned Ghitianky that looks like Jhonny Depp?

It makes the setting more coherent and it create diversity among the race that contains. If everything would look the same what is the point to make a different race from the humans. Let's just make all humans.

Pretending a not Human race to have Human tracts is quite well... A pretense.

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Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
[Yes, if you turn off customization restrictions. By the way, sun elves have bronze skin, while forest elves have copper and tanned skin.
And I still don't see the point in introducing new faces for non-white elves. You can make a black-skin elf anyway.


So what's your complaint against people requesting that Larian add more faces that allow you to make an elf that appears ethnically black (or non-Caucasian)? If we already have the ability to turn off restrictions to make any colour combination, why not have that restriction enable more face options?

The fact that it has no justification in the lore. I have nothing against new faces (Although I would like this to primarily affect the dwarves), but I would like these faces to comply with the established canons.
If there were elves with black people facial features in Faerûn, I would not have written a word, but I do not remember that such elves existed in the setting.
And one more thing, I don't know if this is important for our discussion or not, but I do not approve of the ability to turn off restrictions on colors, this function annoys me a little... This is a subjective opinion.

Last edited by BuckettMonkey; 04/12/20 04:00 PM.

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Originally Posted by Rieline
It gives the setting more consistency those are racial distinct features if one dislike such feature why chose that race in the first place? It is not like everything must look varied as humans. Otherwise what could stop me to make a white skinned Ghitianky that looks like Jhonny Depp?

It makes the setting more coherent and it create diversity among the race that contains. If everything would look the same what is the point to make a different race from the humans. Let's just make all humans.

Pretending a not Human race to have Human tracts is quite well... A pretense.


1) How does it affect your enjoyment of the game that other people are given more customisation options that you are not required to use?

2) Are you against the current customisation options that allow you to make characters with any combination of skin, hair and eye colour?

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Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.


Actually that's not true at all. The imagine of elves in 5th edition still are following the bone structure the elves have supposed to have. Cut of the eyes. Long noses. In D&D and in faerun the elves are supposed not to look like humans there was a well made thread in forum that actually proved that.



Actually, that is not true at all. For every example there is of an elf that follows the rules, there is one that doesn't. There are plenty of elves in the PHB who do not have the oddly angled eyes that they should have, there is even an elf who has a very round face in there. Which again, proves my point of this coming down to the artist.

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Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline
It gives the setting more consistency those are racial distinct features if one dislike such feature why chose that race in the first place? It is not like everything must look varied as humans. Otherwise what could stop me to make a white skinned Ghitianky that looks like Jhonny Depp?

It makes the setting more coherent and it create diversity among the race that contains. If everything would look the same what is the point to make a different race from the humans. Let's just make all humans.

Pretending a not Human race to have Human tracts is quite well... A pretense.


1) How does it affect your enjoyment of the game that other people are given more customisation options that you are not required to use?

2) Are you against the current customisation options that allow you to make characters with any combination of skin, hair and eye colour?


1) Yes it does. As i play forgotten realms in both pen and paper and videogames since i was a child. Adding things that breaks the lore smash the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me. Is not a necessary add on. What needs to be done in my opinion is move the current elven head in the half race elf. And then implement proper elven head. In the case of OP i think wild elves would be perfect to her. Also again adding human diversity of a race that again "Is not supposed to be human at all" is completely unnecessary and kills off the distinct tracts of that specific rest.

2)No really. I even used that feature to create my tiefling as my tiefling is supposed to be one coming from a regular fiend and not an Archdemon or Archdevil wich is perfectly in the lore. However from custom color palette to having elves with the bone structure to reflect different HUMAN RACE etnicy there is a whole lot of difference.

Last edited by Rieline; 04/12/20 04:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by dreambled
Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.


Actually that's not true at all. The imagine of elves in 5th edition still are following the bone structure the elves have supposed to have. Cut of the eyes. Long noses. In D&D and in faerun the elves are supposed not to look like humans there was a well made thread in forum that actually proved that.



Actually, that is not true at all. For every example there is of an elf that follows the rules, there is one that doesn't. There are plenty of elves in the PHB who do not have the oddly angled eyes that they should have, there is even an elf who has a very round face in there. Which again, proves my point of this coming down to the artist.


Provide links of that image.

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Originally Posted by Rieline
1) Yes it does. As i play forgotten realms in both pen and paper and videogames since i was a child. Adding things that breaks the lore smash the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me.



With respect, that's a you problem. I've also played tabletop for many years and if in my game, pen and paper or cRPG, I customise a character in a way that hasn't been shown in lore that in no way breaks your immersion. If Larian added more faces for a range of ethnicities and let you use them with any race, even if it required you unticking the customisation restriction setting, it in no way will affect your game.

Originally Posted by Rieline

2)No really. I even used that feature to create my tiefling as my tiefling is supposed to be one coming from a regular fiend and not an Archdemon or Archdevil wich is perfectly in the lore. However from custom color palette to having elves with the bone structure to reflect different HUMAN RACE etnicy there is a whole lot of difference.


It really isn't and shows a double standard. You say that a face based on a non-Caucasian ethnicity would break and smash the game that you hold so dear, yet you're completely fine with non-Caucasian and even alien skin/hair tones. I'd suggest you reflect on that inconsistency because it doesn't point to anything good.

I don't have anything more to say beyond these points, I don't think anything more needs to be said. This boils down to you feeling like a very specific subset of options for other players is damaging to you, and I completely disagree. So I'm going to leave it there.

Last edited by Braxton; 04/12/20 04:13 PM.
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I'm just hoping Larian put in a body type option as well id like my fighter look more like me in term of body type especially when barbarian one of my favorite classes finally drops in the game

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Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline
1) Yes it does. As i play forgotten realms in both pen and paper and videogames since i was a child. Adding things that breaks the lore smash the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me.



With respect, that's a you problem. I've also played tabletop for many years and if in my game, pen and paper or cRPG, I customise a character in a way that hasn't been shown in lore that in no way breaks your immersion. If Larian added more faces for a range of ethnicities and let you use them with any race, even if it required you unticking the customisation restriction setting, it in no way will affect your game.

Originally Posted by Rieline

2)No really. I even used that feature to create my tiefling as my tiefling is supposed to be one coming from a regular fiend and not an Archdemon or Archdevil wich is perfectly in the lore. However from custom color palette to having elves with the bone structure to reflect different HUMAN RACE etnicy there is a whole lot of difference.


It really isn't and shows a double standard. You say that a face based on a non-Caucasian ethnicity would break and smash the game that you hold so dear, yet you're completely fine with non-Caucasian and even alien skin/hair tones. I'd suggest you reflect on that inconsistency because it doesn't point to anything good.

I don't have anything more to say beyond these points, I don't think anything more needs to be said. This boils down to you feeling like a very specific subset of options for other players is damaging to you, and I completely disagree. So I'm going to leave it there.


Setting exist for a reason. It gives you a context and a world to play and roleplay in. If you disregard the setting there is no point to have a setting at all. Unfortunately bg3 is in a well know setting and this setting in particular is very popular because is how it is. Elves are elves. They are not human they are not supposed to be human they are not supposed to look like human they don't even share any sort of ancestry with humans. Expecting them to look like humans or having humans Ethnicies is like expecting a goldfish to go to school and walk on land. Completely out of context. The moment we start not respecting a setting or breaking the lore with a setting we won't have a point to have a setting anymore. Yes it does affect my game because if i find an npc that have a ethnicy is not supposed to have i will deem them lore breaking and so it will break my immersion. WOuld be not a problem if the choice would be just avaliable for the player only.

2) You are not making any sense at all. What i said is the color wheel in the case of Tiefling is very useful. There is a large number of tiefling that comes from Asmodeus,Zariel,Mephistophele. However not all of them. A tiefling could actually be coloured like an human with distinct fiendish aspect.

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Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.


Actually that's not true at all. The imagine of elves in 5th edition still are following the bone structure the elves have supposed to have. Cut of the eyes. Long noses. In D&D and in faerun the elves are supposed not to look like humans there was a well made thread in forum that actually proved that.



Actually, that is not true at all. For every example there is of an elf that follows the rules, there is one that doesn't. There are plenty of elves in the PHB who do not have the oddly angled eyes that they should have, there is even an elf who has a very round face in there. Which again, proves my point of this coming down to the artist.


Provide links of that image.


Sure!

The bard looks like my coworker with white hair and long ears. Eyes are not at the correct angle for an elf.

These guys near the beginning of the book look like humans with pointy ears.

This druid, whom I believe is really a half-elf, shows no signs of being part elf besides the stubby pointed ears.

This elf near the Spells section of the book I believe does not have those gaunt cheeks you would expect elves to have.

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AH yes i can see that howver i never specified gaunted cheecks the main difference in the elves bone structure is the cut of the eyes and the noses. The first one and the last one and even second one had those. I can agree on the OP on just one thing. Currently elves in bg3 looks way too caucasian and they are not supposed to be. ((i would love to create a super lovely elven lady like in the last picture with chubby cheeks.))

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Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

Originally Posted by ash elemental
differences that are similar to what you can find among human cultures as such. Consider the drow: in BG2 you get to visit a drow city. And what do you see: a city market, a temple, a tavern and houses in-between. Same for the elven city you get to visit. How does it really differ from human cities except for the architectural style?

Life, activities, matriarchy, religion and the presence of a huge number of slaves.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
same as the elven bodies are based on the human body

Abd what's the problem here? Do you think that in order to be different from a person you need to be like the Old Ones from the Lovecraft books?
If a fantasy species is supposed to be "alien" and not just another human copycat with few cosmetic design differences? Yes. Matriarchy, religion, slavery are all human inventions, and so are cities, so I fail to see the difference in what you have listed here, especially since the drow and elf life activities consist of human behaviors like haggling in markets, drinking in taverns and worshipping at temples. Even the elven faces (not in-game, but the examples posted here) just look like caricatures to me, where you simply use a human as a model, but exaggerate some face features on purpose.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

Originally Posted by ash elemental
differences that are similar to what you can find among human cultures as such. Consider the drow: in BG2 you get to visit a drow city. And what do you see: a city market, a temple, a tavern and houses in-between. Same for the elven city you get to visit. How does it really differ from human cities except for the architectural style?

Life, activities, matriarchy, religion and the presence of a huge number of slaves.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
same as the elven bodies are based on the human body

Abd what's the problem here? Do you think that in order to be different from a person you need to be like the Old Ones from the Lovecraft books?
If a fantasy species is supposed to be "alien" and not just another human copycat with few cosmetic design differences? Yes. Matriarchy, religion, slavery are all human inventions, and so are cities, so I fail to see the difference in what you have listed here, especially since the drow and elf life activities consist of human behaviors like haggling in markets, drinking in taverns and worshipping at temples. Even the elven faces (not in-game, but the examples posted here) just look like caricatures to me, where you simply use a human as a model, but exaggerate some face features on purpose.

So, do you exclude that over the many years of coexistence, some races have exchanged experiences and technological advances or just stolen them?
And for you, a fantastic race must necessarily be alien and incomprehensible, both physically and socially?

Last edited by BuckettMonkey; 04/12/20 04:35 PM.

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Originally Posted by Rieline
AH yes i can see that howver i never specified gaunted cheecks the main difference in the elves bone structure is the cut of the eyes and the noses. The first one and the last one and even second one had those. I can agree on the OP on just one thing. Currently elves in bg3 looks way too caucasian and they are not supposed to be. ((i would love to create a super lovely elven lady like in the last picture with chubby cheeks.))


The real test here, and the point I'm making, is that if you give all of those examples I linked human ears, would you even notice that they weren't supposed to be human originally? I would say besides the last one you wouldn't. If the argument is elves are not supposed to look like humans, and they have their own distinct features besides just pointy ears, then WOTC is not enforcing that.

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Originally Posted by dreambled
Originally Posted by Rieline
AH yes i can see that howver i never specified gaunted cheecks the main difference in the elves bone structure is the cut of the eyes and the noses. The first one and the last one and even second one had those. I can agree on the OP on just one thing. Currently elves in bg3 looks way too caucasian and they are not supposed to be. ((i would love to create a super lovely elven lady like in the last picture with chubby cheeks.))


The real test here, and the point I'm making, is that if you give all of those examples I linked human ears, would you even notice that they weren't supposed to be human originally? I would say besides the last one you wouldn't. If the argument is elves are not supposed to look like humans, and they have their own distinct features besides just pointy ears, then WOTC is not enforcing that.


My point is another like i state perviously the imagine you linked still have the elven features very well evident even if different between the image. The problem is that currently elves in bg3 just way too much like humans. They lack totally for the most part the distinct facial tracts elven have. Tracts that were present more or less in the picture you posted. To me the elven head in bg3 must be redone. Or simply swapped to the half elves. There is not currently an head in bg3 for elves that represent how elves should like. Wotc is pretty clear in the elven descriptions how they look like. Also FR has is own races of elves that are well decribed on how they appear the color of the skin eyes and hair and that's also important because this features are what distinguish an elven race for another. For istance i can't come to you and tell.. Ohhh i want to make a drow but i want his skin to be pinkish and her hair to be pink!... You could say to me. But that's not what a drow looks like. And i could tell you: Hey don't kill off my fantasy i want it to look like that. And with that i would trow down an entire background and race distinction down to the toilet.

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Originally Posted by Rieline

2) You are not making any sense at all. What i said is the color wheel in the case of Tiefling is very useful. There is a large number of tiefling that comes from Asmodeus,Zariel,Mephistophele. However not all of them. A tiefling could actually be coloured like an human with distinct fiendish aspect.


I said I was dropping it and I really intend to but you seem to have missed the point. We're not talking about Tieflings, we're talking about elves. Currently you an make an Elven character with any skin colour, any hair colour and any eye colour. You can even give them all black eyes or a variety of demon eyes. When I asked you whether you were against this you said no, despite the fact that this is not in lore.

The only thing to conclude from this inconsistent position is that the lore you particularly care about is specifically one of ethnicity. It's not a great look, to say the least, that you apparently couldn't possibly cope with people being able to make non-Caucasian elves in their own games but you're fine with the idea of creating a bright orange, carrot topped one. Kind of indicates where your specific issues lie, if it was all about Lore then you would have kicked up this much of a fuss when the game first released and you saw it came with the ability to turn customization restrictions off. If you're only complaining now that someone has asked for some non-Caucasian faces...well like I said. Maybe something for you to reflect on.

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Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline

2) You are not making any sense at all. What i said is the color wheel in the case of Tiefling is very useful. There is a large number of tiefling that comes from Asmodeus,Zariel,Mephistophele. However not all of them. A tiefling could actually be coloured like an human with distinct fiendish aspect.


I said I was dropping it and I really intend to but you seem to have missed the point. We're not talking about Tieflings, we're talking about elves. Currently you an make an Elven character with any skin colour, any hair colour and any eye colour. You can even give them all black eyes or a variety of demon eyes. When I asked you whether you were against this you said no, despite the fact that this is not in lore.

The only thing to conclude from this inconsistent position is that the lore you particularly care about is specifically one of ethnicity. It's not a great look, to say the least, that you apparently couldn't possibly cope with people being able to makenon-Caucasian elves in their own games but you're fine with the idea of creating a bright orange, carrot topped one. Kind of indicates where your specific issues lie, if it was all about Lore then you would have kicked up this much of a fuss when the game first released and you saw it came with the ability to turn customization restrictions off. If you're only complaining now that someone has asked for some non-Caucasian faces...well like I said. Maybe something for you to reflect on.


I won't define my statements like compaling. I am just giving feedback. TO be clear with you i would not have problem if those would be just tied to your character as i could chose to ignore that. I would have a problem tho if i would see in the game elven npc with Asian,African,Cacuasian,Latin faces because that would be absolutely lore breaking. I also think that developing something to add human diversity to a race that is not supposed to have Human ethnicy would be a waste of resources. I'd rather would instead they focus the development on made the elven heads actually elven.

Also you are starting to go in the zone of assumption there is nothing to assume my position is pretty clear and is not meant to offend anybody. Also do you want to make an elven char that has also a human Ethnicy? do it! That's what half elves are for.

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Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

So, do you exclude that over the many years of coexistence, some races have exchanged experiences and technological advances or just stolen them?
And for you, a fantastic race must necessarily be alien and incomprehensible, both physically and socially?

Not some, all of the playable races in D&D look similar enough to the humans. That's why I disagree with the 'elves are an alien species' argument; there is nothing alien about them. To make it clear: I don't care if a fantasy race is basically a " copy&paste, only make it fashion" version of a human. But, as I wrote before, I don't have any respect for unoriginal lore like that.

D&D is a setting of "borrowed" features. Heck, from what I remember the Tolkien estate sued at some point, because they "borrowed" too much. And so they had to change the lore.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

So, do you exclude that over the many years of coexistence, some races have exchanged experiences and technological advances or just stolen them?
And for you, a fantastic race must necessarily be alien and incomprehensible, both physically and socially?

Not some, all of the playable races in D&D look similar enough to the humans. That's why I disagree with the 'elves are an alien species' argument; there is nothing alien about them. To make it clear: I don't care if a fantasy race is basically a " copy&paste, only make it fashion" version of a human. But, as I wrote before, I don't have any respect for unoriginal lore like that.

D&D is a setting of "borrowed" features. Heck, from what I remember the Tolkien estate sued at some point, because they "borrowed" too much. And so they had to change the lore.


They may be not alien like Illithids. However they have unique body and face features.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental

Not some, all of the playable races in D&D look similar enough to the humans. That's why I disagree with the 'elves are an alien species' argument; there is nothing alien about them.

It looks like you misunderstood my point. I write that elves are different from humans, albeit with some fantasy clichés. But at the same time, I do not believe that we should reduce all cultural and physiological differences to sharp ears and thin physique.
However, if the "fantasy non-human race" needs only tentacles and colonies united by a giant psionic brain, that's your business.

Last edited by BuckettMonkey; 04/12/20 05:28 PM.

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