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I'm so tired of the fake outrage about 'representation' of some humans subgroups in alien races. What's next? Demanding 2 meters tall Korean-looking dwarfs because it doesn't represent 'me'? Non-human races are not supposed to represent you as a player in any form. All non-human races should not look human. Pick humans or half-humans if you want to model yourself. Nowadays many companies think the 'representation' will make their games good. It won't. They should focus on the plot and scenarios and ignore people with ridiculous demands.


Originally Posted by A Clown

Agreed! I like the way the elves look in this! It's almost like DAI

DAI is garbage, nothing to be worth aiming to.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!

No, they don't look great. They are just humans in BG3.

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I’m actually surprised Larian didn’t dial up the otherworldliness of elves, considering their own take on elves in Divinity is quite alien in appearance.

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Originally Posted by Maerd
I'm so tired of the fake outrage about 'representation' of some humans subgroups in alien races. What's next? Demanding 2 meters tall Korean-looking dwarfs because it doesn't represent 'me'? Non-human races are not supposed to represent you as a player in any form. All non-human races should not look human. Pick humans or half-humans if you want to model yourself. Nowadays many companies think the 'representation' will make their games good. It won't. They should focus on the plot and scenarios and ignore people with ridiculous demands.


Originally Posted by A Clown

Agreed! I like the way the elves look in this! It's almost like DAI

DAI is garbage, nothing to be worth aiming to.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!

No, they don't look great. They are just humans in BG3.


I dont want to start anything but I think you're missing the point, its not "fake" outrage! There is no outrage! It's just a simple request to add more diverse features because yes it is nice to be represented! Especially nowadays where we have to tools and the knowledge to be more inclusive! You can still focus on the plot and scenarios since that is a big project! But it is also the little things that make a game enjoyable! Again it is a small request and suggestion! If its offered to put in our ideas why not include the small ones?

It's just a small request please dont get heated at people who just want to see more representation! There is no place for anger just friendly suggestions smile

Also personally I like DAI you could pick from a range of diverse features and edit it! I usually dont like character creation that goes into full detail but it felt nice to pick and choose!

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how dare you like X when I do not like X.

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Originally Posted by A Clown
I understand the argument on making the elves look less human, but what features would they need to include? From my idea I know elves are a humanoid race (same with a lot of the dnd races)

But what could be classed as an elf feature? Super upright eyes? That's still a human feature a lot of people have,

Youd have to make them look completely alien to not look human.


This is not the first thread about elves. The previous ones had some examples from earlier D&D books (3E)
Basically their faces had sharper lines and were more angular than humans.
[Linked Image][Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by A Clown
You can still focus on the plot and scenarios since that is a big project! But it is also the little things that make a game enjoyable! Again it is a small request and suggestion! If its offered to put in our ideas why not include the small ones?

It's just a small request please dont get heated at people who just want to see more representation! There is no place for anger just friendly suggestions smile


And why exactly you want representation in the different species of humanoids? There are humans in the game that can represent exactly you. Why all humanoid species should look like you?

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Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by A Clown
You can still focus on the plot and scenarios since that is a big project! But it is also the little things that make a game enjoyable! Again it is a small request and suggestion! If its offered to put in our ideas why not include the small ones?

It's just a small request please dont get heated at people who just want to see more representation! There is no place for anger just friendly suggestions smile


And why exactly you want representation in the different species of humanoids? There are humans in the game that can represent exactly you. Why all humanoid species should look like you?


Bro, what I'm saying is the non human species features just dont have enough diverse options! And I'm not saying it should 100% like me jeez that would be so freaky man! I'm saying it would be nice to have representation! That is all my chum!

Even with non human races you can still include diverse and a range of features WITHOUT making them look too human! That is all!

I dont think you realise how much representation matters man! Even with the human heads the options feel quite naff and you dont have many options!

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by A Clown
I understand the argument on making the elves look less human, but what features would they need to include? From my idea I know elves are a humanoid race (same with a lot of the dnd races)

But what could be classed as an elf feature? Super upright eyes? That's still a human feature a lot of people have,

Youd have to make them look completely alien to not look human.


This is not the first thread about elves. The previous ones had some examples from earlier D&D books (3E)
Basically their faces had sharper lines and were more angular than humans.
[Linked Image][Linked Image]


That looks incredibly stunning! Thank you! Can definitely see a lot of options to play with!

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Originally Posted by A Clown
Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by A Clown
You can still focus on the plot and scenarios since that is a big project! But it is also the little things that make a game enjoyable! Again it is a small request and suggestion! If its offered to put in our ideas why not include the small ones?

It's just a small request please dont get heated at people who just want to see more representation! There is no place for anger just friendly suggestions smile


And why exactly you want representation in the different species of humanoids? There are humans in the game that can represent exactly you. Why all humanoid species should look like you?


Bro, what I'm saying is the non human species features just dont have enough diverse options! And I'm not saying it should 100% like me jeez that would be so freaky man! I'm saying it would be nice to have representation! That is all my chum!

Even with non human races you can still include diverse and a range of features WITHOUT making them look too human! That is all!

I dont think you realise how much representation matters man! Even with the human heads the options feel quite naff and you dont have many options!


Do you play halflings?

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Originally Posted by A Clown

Bro, what I'm saying is the non human species features just dont have enough diverse options! And I'm not saying it should 100% like me jeez that would be so freaky man! I'm saying it would be nice to have representation! That is all my chum!

Even with non human races you can still include diverse and a range of features WITHOUT making them look too human! That is all!

I dont think you realise how much representation matters man! Even with the human heads the options feel quite naff and you dont have many options!


From the pure biological point of view elves should NOT be diverse. Diversity happen when genes recombine and mutate, which happens every next generation. The shorter is the life span of the species the greater the diversity. According to the lore, elves are virtually immortal therefore they don't have necessary recombination happening, therefore, they should be more look-alike than any other species. If anything, they look way more diverse than it makes sense given circumstances.

Last edited by Maerd; 05/12/20 11:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by A Clown

Bro, what I'm saying is the non human species features just dont have enough diverse options! And I'm not saying it should 100% like me jeez that would be so freaky man! I'm saying it would be nice to have representation! That is all my chum!

Even with non human races you can still include diverse and a range of features WITHOUT making them look too human! That is all!

I dont think you realise how much representation matters man! Even with the human heads the options feel quite naff and you dont have many options!


From the pure biological point of view elves should NOT be diverse. Diversity happen when genes recombine and mutate, which happens every next generation. The shorter is the life span of the species the greater the diversity. According to the lore, elves are virtually immortal therefore they don't have necessary recombination happening, therefore, they should be more look-alike than any other species. If anything, they look way more diverse than it makes sense given circumstances.


Youre right there! but all elves cant look exactly the same! Dont forget elves have different sub races and races! I'm pretty sure a sun high elf is gonna look a little different from a moon high elf! And a drow is gonna be completely different looking than a wood elf! Otherwise it's just boring! You need to be able to tell the different variations and why not do that by exploring diversity since there is a wide range of sub races! smile

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Originally Posted by A Clown
Youre right there! but all elves cant look exactly the same!


Yes, in fact there should be a lot of difference in the colour palettes of our Elf subraces. Sun Elves are warm toned, so golds, reds and coppers. Moon Elves are cool toned, so whites, blacks and blues. Wood Elves are browns, greens and bronzes. And Drow are greys, blacks, and silvers. Although that last one has varied a lot by edition, let us not forget the eggplant purple Drow of old.

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Originally Posted by A Clown

Youre right there! but all elves cant look exactly the same! Dont forget elves have different sub races and races! I'm pretty sure a sun high elf is gonna look a little different from a moon high elf! And a drow is gonna be completely different looking than a wood elf! Otherwise it's just boring! You need to be able to tell the different variations and why not do that by exploring diversity since there is a wide range of sub races! smile

While they shouldn't be exactly the same, due to immortality many of them literally brothers and sisters, because older elves are more experiences, therefore, more powerful, and, thus, tend to survive, live longer, and produce much more offsprings. The once who die are usually young and inexperienced, which even more tilt the diversity towards look-alikeness. Elven subrases are fine as long as each subrace looks very similar to each other within that subrace. But whatever they are, they should NOT look like humans with pointy ears. The original poster complained that elves are lacking African, Mesoamerican and other human specific features... which is why I'm totally against such 'representation'. For those there are humans in the game. Elves should represent just elves and look non-human.

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Originally Posted by Maerd
I'm so tired of the fake outrage about 'representation' of some humans subgroups in alien races. What's next? Demanding 2 meters tall Korean-looking dwarfs because it doesn't represent 'me'? Non-human races are not supposed to represent you as a player in any form. All non-human races should not look human. Pick humans or half-humans if you want to model yourself. Nowadays many companies think the 'representation' will make their games good. It won't. They should focus on the plot and scenarios and ignore people with ridiculous demands.


Originally Posted by A Clown

Agreed! I like the way the elves look in this! It's almost like DAI

DAI is garbage, nothing to be worth aiming to.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!

No, they don't look great. They are just humans in BG3.



It was a joke, but actually I'm completely happy with Astarion's appearance and don't want to see him more "alien". And yes, if you change elves in character creator, you will probably have to change companions as well. I am absolutely against it.


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Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much.


If you've read the thread or even thought about the issue for more than ten seconds it should be clear that "diversification for the sake of diversification" is not what is going on here (and it's laughable that you're holding up the entire genre of science fiction as though it hasn't also had it's issues with representation). If you really want to peddle whataboutism might as well do it to Wizards of the Coast:

Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is strength, for only a diverse group of adventurers can overcome the many challenges a D&D story presents. In that spirit, making D&D as welcoming and inclusive as possible has moved to the forefront of our priorities over the last six years. We’d like to share with you what we’ve been doing, and what we plan to do in the future to address legacy D&D content that does not reflect who we are today. We recognize that doing this isn’t about getting to a place where we can rest on our laurels but continuing to head in the right direction. We feel that being transparent about it is the best way to let our community help us to continue to calibrate our efforts.

One of the explicit design goals of 5th edition D&D is to depict humanity in all its beautiful diversity by depicting characters who represent an array of ethnicities, gender identities, sexual orientations, and beliefs. We want everyone to feel at home around the game table and to see positive reflections of themselves within our products. “Human” in D&D means everyone, not just fantasy versions of northern Europeans, and the D&D community is now more diverse than it’s ever been.


https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd

Originally Posted by Rieline

I am not of course repeating myself again it cold be that my english is not perfect because is not the primary languange however i may give you a friendly advise for the future. Debating and disagree on something is perfectly fine as long every part does it respectfully i noticed you got maybe a little upset and this is not how a conversation between civil people should go


Some friendly advice back; there is nothing wrong with people getting upset or angry at certain views, and telling people to "be civil" or "calm down" is a common tactic to try to discredit them. Just look at Colin Kaepernick who protested civil rights in an incredibly calm, non-disruptive way and yet he was hounded for not being respectful or civil.

Originally Posted by Rieline
My reasons are under the nose of everyone that knows well D&D or at least have some degree of knowledge about it. The main reason i oppose to this idea in the end is just one logic one. Elves are not human and they never been human apply human enthnicy to elves to have more inclusivity have no sense at the same manner the elves heads that are currently in the game for bot players and npc have no sense.


Elves are not presented as aliens, as has been pointed out if any of these elves walked down the street, minus the ears, you'd think nothing of it. If Larian had decided to create novel elven facial features that don't align with any RL ethnicities then you'd have more of a leg to stand on. But they've not done that, they've not indicated they're going to do that, they've made elves with caucasian features. In which case the RL inclusivity argument definitely holds. See above for the statement from wizards.

Originally Posted by Rieline
What's next?
"I don't feel represented by Githianki heads i want more latin faces for them that don't have a bat upturned nose or is not diverse enough?"
or
"I want to make an Halfling that is tall like an human?"

I would also not put in doubt the moral integrity of who disagree with me.


Your moral integrity isn' in question because you disagree, it's because of how you disagree. Seriously, a slippery slope argument? Asking for a more diverse range of real ethnicities in races that have clearly been based on a real ethnicity is not at all the same as asking that species that do have significantly novel features appear human.



Heh, I read this post and I was like, "Oh nice, here's another person being reasonable, articulate, and thoughtful in the thread. This is great." Then I looked to see who it was, and OF COURSE it was you, Braxton. Sad that there wasn't another person on the right side, but always glad to read one of your posts nonetheless.

The things you're saying make so much clear and obvious sense, it's amazing how many people come out of the woodwork to disagree.

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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


Not that it makes any difference, but Bib Fortuna is a twi’lek too!



Oh shit! You're right! I totally thought he was a different species, for some reason. Maybe because of the way his lekku wrap around or something. Well, you got me there.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth

It was a joke, but actually I'm completely happy with Astarion's appearance and don't want to see him more "alien". And yes, if you change elves in character creator, you will probably have to change companions as well. I am absolutely against it.

Well, Larian can keep his appearance intact. They just need to make him human. It won't change much because, being a vampire spawn, he can live for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by Nyloth

It was a joke, but actually I'm completely happy with Astarion's appearance and don't want to see him more "alien". And yes, if you change elves in character creator, you will probably have to change companions as well. I am absolutely against it.

Well, Larian can keep his appearance intact. They just need to make him human. It won't change much because, being a vampire spawn, he can live for a long time.


Isn't Astarion an half helf?.. Vampirism or Being Vampire Spawn change the complexion of the skin white cadaveric and makes the eyes red. Half elves does not need to change at the countrary i would like to see more Ethnicy Human mixing with elven features.

But the Elves needs to be redone totally. Right now they look like just humans with pointy ears.

Asking more HUMAN ethnicy for clearly not Human races is not logic nor reasonable. Elves are not Humans. Period.

Said that Elves are diverse on theyr own like i said several times and people seems to don't understand.
[Linked Image] Forgotten realms elves.

Again Forgotten Realms elves the first one is human.
[Linked Image]

They have the diversity they need concerning their race that again is not Human.







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Originally Posted by Rieline


Isn't Astarion an half helf?


He is high elf according to his character sheet but human with pointy ears in appearance.

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I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.

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