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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Eh, good things can come from pointless threads. We've already hijacked some for quality discussion, some of which might be of use for Larian.

Perhaps, but I don't think it's the case here. But you're right that it's not only about shitting on Larian. We shit on Obsidian here as well! Fun times indeed


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by starlord7
I wish this was made in the style of Pillars of Eternity II but even more refined. Pillars II was so impressive, imagine what a company who actually understands and respects Baldur's Gate would have achieved.

I'm playing Divinity II, got to Arx and I've lost all interest in playing the game. The mechanics is some of the sloppy and exploitable stuff I've ever seen, but Larian seems to think everything is peachy and they importing nearly all those gaming concepts into Baldur's Gate. But what I really can't stand is the slowness of turn-based combat and how every enemy goes through a slow casting animation, it makes combat frankly unbearable.

Larian, while creative and brilliant, seem totally whimsical to me as if they don't even give a $*** what we think. A lot of the game mechanics in Divinity II are so unnecessary and sadistic, Obsidian had a faaar better understanding of paying homage to Baldur's gate and I would have LOVED RTwP... they deserved to make it, it's all so sad the state of the world these days, no offense meant to Larian but why can't they make a Divinity III with faster combat instead, it's like some executive saw that Divinity gets good reviews on metacritic and they gave it to them based solely on that.


Obsidian can't make a game about NOT killing God to save their lives.
PoE is an overrated, awful, boring game. Combat sucked, the story also sucked, and frankly it's hard to find a game that screws up in both departments but now we have a first.
The only positive thing that PoE accomplished is that it admits that the universe it takes place in is completely and utterly meaningless and has no purpose nor any morality, and you can basically ask Eothas to just end it all.

Obsidian should stick to secular themes, they simply can't handle spiritual themes in a way that's interesting. They basically copy Nietzsche and Hegel and imagine themselves to be original.
Tyranny was superior to PoE in both combat and storytelling, despite it being like a 12 hour game, showcasing that Obsidian can do good stuff, they just seem to loose their mind whenever god and other spiritual themes are featured in a story. Fallout: New Vegas is another gem, but that's an entirely different kind of game.


TBH I wasn't really following the story in PoE1, all the stuff about "souls" was so intangible and difficult to grasp I stopped paying attention.
But I liked the old-school 2d format a lot more and customizing a full party with unique portraits and I vastly prefer real-time-with-pause. I don't pay attention to in-game companions with the endless dialogues, I don't care about their personal stories, I make a party of my own unique characters and forge my own path. Unfortunately most RPGs have mediocre writing that doesn't hold my attention for long but I focus on the gameplay instead. In fact in the Pillars game I killed all the pre-designed companions as soon as I met them and sold their loot to a vendor, then went to the inn and created my own companions, effectively writing my own story in a way.
Pillars II refined the original Baldur's Gate formula to its most satisfying and modern version. Larian meanwhile is on a different planet.
I go way back, I played Divine Divinity when it came out. I like that game better than Original Sin. There's a lot of nice flowery stuff about the Original Sin games but there's elements that suck out all my enjoyment: the turn-based combat that drags on with painfully slow casting animations, as well as very very flawed mechanics that are too open-ended it ends up being a lot of distracting, frivolous time-wasting nonsense.
Combat takes WAY too long and WAY longer than it should. They couldn't even give us an option to speed up the enemy turns, at least. That's why I think Larian is kind of in their own world, doing whatever they want, taking a completely whimsical and frivolous approach to designing their own brand of RPG

Last edited by starlord7; 08/12/20 12:44 PM.
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Well no offense, but the combar in BG3 is already superior to whatever PoE managed to put on the table, and I'm sure the story will be better too, because PoE had an abysmally bad story.... and lots of it.

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I quite enjoyed The Outer Worlds and preferred it to some of Obsidian's other games; but as much as some of BG3's mechanics might not be entirely to my taste, I'd rather that than first-person which seems to be their current "thing". It was the only bit of TOW I wasn't so keen on.


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Originally Posted by Bruh
Well no offense, but the combar in BG3 is already superior to whatever PoE managed to put on the table, and I'm sure the story will be better too, because PoE had an abysmally bad story.... and lots of it.


It wasn't that bad, the world-building was good and the game was truthful to Baldur's Gate. PoE2 had excellent combat

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Originally Posted by vometia
I quite enjoyed The Outer Worlds and preferred it to some of Obsidian's other games; but as much as some of BG3's mechanics might not be entirely to my taste, I'd rather that than first-person which seems to be their current "thing". It was the only bit of TOW I wasn't so keen on.


I don't worship everything about Obsidian, I tried Outer Worlds and gave up after 10 minutes that game is frankly a triple-A piece of s**t.
Before trying out Pillars I was skeptical from all the bad reviews, but I started and couldn't stop, played through both Pillars games and had a grand time.
I can't even finish the Original Sin games because the slow turn-based combat is so maddening and unfun.

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Originally Posted by starlord7
Originally Posted by Bruh
Well no offense, but the combar in BG3 is already superior to whatever PoE managed to put on the table, and I'm sure the story will be better too, because PoE had an abysmally bad story.... and lots of it.


It wasn't that bad, the world-building was good and the game was truthful to Baldur's Gate. PoE2 had excellent combat


I beg to differ

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My main dislike of the Outer Worlds was that it clearly tried to be... I can't remember the name of that game right now. But you know with the Hammerlocks and the psychic chicks and the handsome jacks -- except without any of the humour. Well, it sure tried to be humorous, but it sure wasn't.

So it was basically just a very shitty shooter. And I'm pretty certain it was made with the awful Bethesda gamebryo engine, so that's a major minus just there.

I honestly feel Obsidian has their days behind them. They haven't made a game that hooked me since New Vegas (which itself was heavily based on ideas from even longer ago!). I think they've lost their edge.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
My main dislike of the Outer Worlds was that it clearly tried to be... I can't remember the name of that game right now. But you know with the Hammerlocks and the psychic chicks and the handsome jacks -- except without any of the humour. Well, it sure tried to be humorous, but it sure wasn't.

So it was basically just a very shitty shooter. And I'm pretty certain it was made with the awful Bethesda gamebryo engine, so that's a major minus just there.

I honestly feel Obsidian has their days behind them. They haven't made a game that hooked me since New Vegas (which itself was heavily based on ideas from even longer ago!). I think they've lost their edge.


I think the team that created Pillars II should do Baldur's Gate III, they were really onto something and nailed the gameplay... idk if Obsidian has been bought and are now being forced to make shitty console games, generally when designers are forced to do things they don't want within a time limit they churn out mediocre games but the marketing and IGN reviews are more important... and they pander to consoles because there's too much piracy with PC games, but that's why we love Kickstarter

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Originally Posted by Dexai
My main dislike of the Outer Worlds was that it clearly tried to be... I can't remember the name of that game right now. But you know with the Hammerlocks and the psychic chicks and the handsome jacks -- except without any of the humour. Well, it sure tried to be humorous, but it sure wasn't.

So it was basically just a very shitty shooter. And I'm pretty certain it was made with the awful Bethesda gamebryo engine, so that's a major minus just there.

I honestly feel Obsidian has their days behind them. They haven't made a game that hooked me since New Vegas (which itself was heavily based on ideas from even longer ago!). I think they've lost their edge.

Saints Row, maybe? Anyway, I liked it, I found the humour a lot less dry than they can tend to be; I guess my counterpoint being that I really didn't enjoy- actually, no, that's nonsense, I did enjoy New Vegas, but I didn't see it as being head and shoulders above everything else and pretty much put it and FO3 on a level footing, with a slight preference for the latter.

Mixed feelings about Bethsoft's version of Gamebryo. It had a lot of problems with stability and ugliness (in the latter regard I'd view Skyrim as a bit of a retrograde step over its predecessors) but it's very modder-friendly so I like it from that point of view. They seem to have ironed out both those problems with FO4 IMHO. It may not be as "shiny" as Frostbite (literally: I'm now convinced the main reason it seems to look better is because its shaders are turned up to 11) but is much easier to work with. But that's by the by, TOW doesn't use it, it's based on Unreal 4. I must admit I did a lol slightly at the claims that the only reason NV played like a Bethsoft game was due to it being an imposition, and then they went on to do the same thing completely independently of them.


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I looked it up after posting and I meant the... shit I've already forgotten again. Let me just Google... There -- I meant the Borderlands series.


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To be honest i rather don't Obsidian now is focussing more on action rpgs and pillars of eternity was plagued by many bad design decision just after the release that took some time to get corrected.

A) When the first pillars released Sawyer did not wanted immunity in creatures as result you could do silly stuff like blind Oozes or cause them to go prone. It was insanely hilarious and bad everyone complained about it but in the end it took months to Sawyer to admit it was absolutely trash.

B) The experience of pillars of eternity is taken by filling the bestiary and do quest. If you filled the bestiary there was not progression even if the creature encountered was a difficoult one to face no exp. That and quest experience only. This alone was problematic because in large scale it killed the exploration and the wonder.

C)The first pillars of eternity even if it had a good world building has no wonder no mistery. Everything was perfectly explained to you rather than allowing you to figure out things. The whole divinity thing was so bad that when i finished the game i felt like empty inside. It has no substance it want to be fantasy? It wants to be a science fiction? Is like a setting that felt very undecided on what it wanted to be.

No i don't think the modern obsidian would be capable to do this game. And in the market despite all the development problematic i see only Larian capable to pull off a BG3. The only reason of concern i have toward Larian is that maybe they are too much intimidated from implementing the core rules as they should be and this is a thing the D&D community that is very big is way looking forward.

This is why Solasta get mentioned a lot. It has loyal to the source material rules and it get appreciated for that. Despite being rather dull and generic and having a bad artstyle. I do believe if larian start to implement the core rules way better and is not intimidated by them they could create not only a worthy successor but even the best D&D around.

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I think people are so attached to the idea of Obsidian as this amazing studio, and the made up version of "the perfect Baldur's Gate game" they've got in their head, that they forget how mediocre Obsidian really is. People got so wound up with the whole "Obsidian got screwed by Bethesda" narrative (which is mostly true tbf) they now put rose tinted glasses on with every single Obsidian release, because hey, remember New Vegas?

Like, PoE is one of the most over written, bloated with information and shoddy worldbuilding RPGs I've ever played, and gameplay wise it wasn't that amazing either. This is of course just my opinion, but I do think Obsidian is a heavily overrated studio. I get tired of seeing everyone and their uncle shout them out whenever the question of "Who should make an RPG of this IP?" comes up.

Also, considering what I've heard about CP2077, I'm not so sure handing over Baldur's Gate to CDPR would've been a good idea either.

Last edited by zeel; 08/12/20 01:10 PM.
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PoE's main world building issue was, to me, that they made every other part of the world sound much more interesting to play in than the one we got (including the one we played in if we only got to play in it during a different, more interesting time).


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Originally Posted by zeel
I think people are so attached to the idea of Obsidian as this amazing studio, and the made up version of "the perfect Baldur's Gate game" they've got in their head, that they forget how mediocre Obsidian really is. People got so wound up with the whole "Obsidian got screwed by Bethesda" narrative (which is mostly true tbf) they now put rose tinted glasses on with every single Obsidian release, because hey, remember New Vegas?

Like, PoE is one of the most over written, bloated with information and shoddy worldbuilding RPGs I've ever played, and gameplay wise it wasn't that amazing either. This is of course just my opinion, but I do think Obsidian is a heavily overrated studio. I get tired of seeing everyone and their uncle shout them out whenever the question of "Who should make an RPG of this IP?" comes up.

Also, considering what I've heard about CP2077, I'm not so sure handing over Baldur's Gate to CDPR would've been a good idea either.

Well, maybe because they are an amazing studio that makes great games with little money.
They have in my opinion the best track record of the decade, only rivaled by Fromsoft: New Vegas, PoE1, PoE2, Stick of Truth and Tyranny. Even Outer Worlds has great reception even though it sucks.
Larian has one great game in the decade with DOS2 (DOS1 sucked).

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I'm not sure Larian was not the good studio but it's a shame they just never talked about the old BG during their interviews.
Oh yeah "they said that everyone in the company played the old games before they start working on BG3" -> seriously ? Anyone believe this ?

Now we can understad why : If we don't consider D&D (which is only a part of BG), nothing feels like BG in BG3 except the beautifull worldmap^^
Whatever we're talking about combats, party size, control, ambiant, day/night, rest, (fast) travel, random encounter, world design, user interface, ...

Larian has done NOTHING for BG3 to taste a bit like a "new gen BG"... The only things are probably a far far link with the story and a companion to ""please"" the fans (like Han solo in SW7^^).

Baldur's Gate 3 taste D&D and maybe the FR even if we could disagree on many things about this one... but it has nothing to do with the old BG.
(every games using D&D and the FR aren't named BG).

I hoped they have done something for this game to have a feeling of BG, but they don't.

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It seems like all game creators go through the same phases. When they are a bunch of gamers and artists trying to get a business going, they sometimes make ground-breaking products. But when they are a business who is trying to make games, the spirit is just not the same.

The music industry is similar, except for AC/DC! It's a long way to the top ...

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by zeel
I think people are so attached to the idea of Obsidian as this amazing studio, and the made up version of "the perfect Baldur's Gate game" they've got in their head, that they forget how mediocre Obsidian really is. People got so wound up with the whole "Obsidian got screwed by Bethesda" narrative (which is mostly true tbf) they now put rose tinted glasses on with every single Obsidian release, because hey, remember New Vegas?

Like, PoE is one of the most over written, bloated with information and shoddy worldbuilding RPGs I've ever played, and gameplay wise it wasn't that amazing either. This is of course just my opinion, but I do think Obsidian is a heavily overrated studio. I get tired of seeing everyone and their uncle shout them out whenever the question of "Who should make an RPG of this IP?" comes up.

Also, considering what I've heard about CP2077, I'm not so sure handing over Baldur's Gate to CDPR would've been a good idea either.

Well, maybe because they are an amazing studio that makes great games with little money.
They have in my opinion the best track record of the decade, only rivaled by Fromsoft: New Vegas, PoE1, PoE2, Stick of Truth and Tyranny. Even Outer Worlds has great reception even though it sucks.
Larian has one great game in the decade with DOS2 (DOS1 sucked).


That is very unfair to say. Larian were the first ones bold enough to bring back turn based classic style isometric RPGS in a era where everyone else were saying that it was just a thing of the past OBSIDIAN included even sawyer admitted himself that he would rather make an historical game or an action oriented rpg instead of a classic isometric rpg. The first divinity original sin despite the flaws it had managed to have a discreet degree of success so much that it saved the company.

The DOS2 came along and it was a nice success. Now they are working in baldurs gate 3 with the blessing of WOTC. The only great rpgs of obsidian were New Vegas. And Pillars of eternity ((despite being very mediocre it went out in a time that isometric rpgs were needed)) Outer World is another mediocre title that gained a degree of success because of the failing of bethesda in the Fallout franchise with Fallout 76.

THe only great game Obsidian made was in the end new vegas. That game is the best fallout since the departing of the isometric fallout style.

Criticism is fair and good. But instead of being distructive why don't put some faith on them and provide them with good criticism? that would help Larian to figure out things about this game



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Originally Posted by Danielbda

Well, maybe because they are an amazing studio that makes great games with little money.
They have in my opinion the best track record of the decade, only rivaled by Fromsoft: New Vegas, PoE1, PoE2, Stick of Truth and Tyranny. Even Outer Worlds has great reception even though it sucks.
Larian has one great game in the decade with DOS2 (DOS1 sucked).


did DOS1 suck because you did not like it or you are talking in general?
because it was never receive badly and got a really good score overall (from the critics and from the users)

Metacritic:
The outer World: 85
Tyranny: 80
POE1: 89
POE2: 88
DOS1: 87

Steam(All):
The outer World: 86
Tyranny: 86
POE1: 86
POE2: 86
DOS1: 89



Last edited by Human; 08/12/20 01:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Human
Originally Posted by Danielbda

Well, maybe because they are an amazing studio that makes great games with little money.
They have in my opinion the best track record of the decade, only rivaled by Fromsoft: New Vegas, PoE1, PoE2, Stick of Truth and Tyranny. Even Outer Worlds has great reception even though it sucks.
Larian has one great game in the decade with DOS2 (DOS1 sucked).


did DOS1 suck because you did not like it or you are talking in general?
because it was never receive badly and got a really good score overall (from the critics and from the users)

Metacritic:
The outer World: 85
Tyranny: 80
POE1: 89
POE2: 88
DOS1: 87

Steam(All):
The outer World: 86
Tyranny: 86
POE1: 86
POE2: 86
DOS1: 89



BTW, I hate DOS1







No, it just sucks. The flaws are so in your face that the scores the game received still baffle me. Maybe because of the CRPG revival?
A game with randomized loot where enemies don't respawn and almost never drop such loot, not even the gear they are using; ugly characters, bad soundtrack, stupidly difficult combat (for real, every fight has you outnumbered 2x1 at least, with enemies higher level than you), overreliance on surface effects, no respec in a game where you can hit a wall very early and might have to restart.

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