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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies


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Everybody always says that New Vegas is Obsidian's best game, or only good game, whatever. It seems to be the prevailing opinion. But I didn't even like New Vegas much, and I love a bunch of Obsidian's other games, so I guess I'm a weirdo.


Here's my favorite Obsidian games in descending order:

1. Alpha Protocol
2. Tyranny
3. Neverwinter Nights 2 (and expansions, especially Mask of the Betrayer)
4. The Outer Worlds
5. Pillars of Eternity 2
6. Pillars of Eternity
7. New Vegas, I guess


The first two, especially, are among my favorite games of all time.


Fairly similar to how I would rank them I guess. I am not really a fan of anything science fiction or futuristic however, so in my case I would exclude Alpha Protocol, The Outer Worlds and New Vegas from the list, because I blanket dislike the genre they fall into regardless (it would also make me a really poor judge of them anyhow). Tyranny I think is the best out of the remaining ones on that list, it was criminally short however and felt like a lost opportunity for something truly great. After that, NWN 2, then between Pillars 1 and 2 I am not really sure where I would rank them. I did not enjoy the story in either game, although I liked the story in the 2nd pillars even less than the first. The combat felt a bit better in the first game, however the character building in the 2nd had a higher degree of depth. I am not sure what it was about the 2nd game, but something about the combat made everything feel super spongy. There were quite a few fights where I started becoming bored during the fight, because they dragged on and on and were just a case of repeating the same button presses over and over again.

Last edited by Sharp; 08/12/20 07:32 PM.
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I love how for all you D:OS fans, everything you love about D:OS is "objective" but everything others hate about D:OS is "subjective." wink

The D:OS games were deplorable in every aspect. Yes, I only played the first game, but everything I hated about that game is also to be found in the second game, so I see zero reason to try it.

As for BG3, it also has horrible combat. The only reason I continue to stick around is in the hope that DESPITE its horrible combat its other aspects will prove to be good.

And to say BG3 is more D&D than the original BG games is just plain silly.

But, as @Abits says, this entire discussion is pointless. WotC decided to go with Larian, and that's that. Obsidian and CDPR are, indeed, my current two most favored RPG studios, and who make the best RPGs out there as far as I am concerned. But the decision was not up to me. Oh well. smile

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Originally Posted by kanisatha

The D:OS games were deplorable in every aspect. Yes, I only played the first game, but everything I hated about that game is also to be found in the second game, so I see zero reason to try it.

As for BG3, it also has horrible combat.



The second Original Sin is a big improvement over the first in every single respect. It's much less silly.

Well, gotta go now. I need to go find the forums for a company whose games I absolutely hate and post 1000 times there.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3

Well, it sold well .... for an indian game. It is considered one of the best cRPGs of ... modern years, because there is really nothing for the past 10 years.

And those 2 arguments are too fallacious. I am yet to understand all the buzz about DOS2, except it came out from a very sterile era.



There were tons of good CRPGs that came out in this new renaissance era of CRPGs.

Wasteland 2
Torment Tides of Numenera
Shadowrun Returns
Shadowrun Dragonfall
Shadowrun Hong Kong
Pillars of Eternity
Pillars of Eternity 2
Tyranny
Masquerada
Pathfinder Kingmaker
Divinity Original Sin
Divinity Original Sin 2


To the best of my knowledge, DOS2 sold the best out of all of those. By a wide margin, even.


Thanks for pointing out this list of of very unimpressive games. It was a terrible decade indeed.

CDPR is currently the only studio that understands how immersion is central to a RPG. They really mastered the technique.

And don't understand the hate for Obsidian. New Vegas is close to a masterpiece. PoE was designed as a throwback to IE games, not exactly an original game. Now that they have budget and ?time I want to see their full potential. Curious how Avowed will turn to be.

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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3


Thanks for pointing out this list of of very unimpressive games.




Well I like all those games. A few of them, I even love. I don't see why they're unimpressive.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Well I like all those games. A few of them, I even love. I don't see why they're unimpressive.

imo its because so many people now seem to define themselves by the particular bits of trashy popular culture they consume (including video games) and so then when someone likes what they dislike or dislikes what they like it becomes a personal attack, an attack on their very selves. This is pretty funny because its all about video games which are just fancy toys.

Last edited by alice_ashpool; 08/12/20 09:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool

imo its because so many people now seem to define themselves by the particular bits of trashy popular culture they consume (including video games) and so then when someone likes what they dislike or dislikes what they like it becomes a personal attack, an attack on their very selves. This is pretty funny because its all about video games which are just fancy toys.



That's a weird thing to define yourself by. Honestly, some of these "fandoms" kind of creep me out with how extreme they get. The games I'm into (or books, shows, whatever) is like, the least interesting thing about me.

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Maybe I'll come back to DoS II later but if nothing else, Larian needs to give us an option to speed up enemy combat animations. I can't say enough how aggravating it is to wait for every last slug to slowly cast a spell, especially when they start crawling over from the far edges of the map and I didn't know they were there.
With DoS you can get endless resurrect scrolls and beat every encounter. You can have one of your characters leap out of combat, take a waypoint to a merchant, buy potions and scrolls, and teleport back to your team that's been paused "in-combat" all along.That's game-breaking.
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Well I like all those games. A few of them, I even love. I don't see why they're unimpressive.

imo its because so many people now seem to define themselves by the particular bits of trashy popular culture they consume (including video games) and so then when someone likes what they dislike or dislikes what they like it becomes a personal attack, an attack on their very selves. This is pretty funny because its all about video games which are just fancy toys.


Some of us like to debate, I often have an opinion that goes against the grain and I usually get banned from every forum after one post, I'm suprised this thread went so far.
Maybe I have a vivid imagination but I like games with a lot of customization, and making a full custom party in Pillars was why I enjoyed it so much. DoS is a lot more confining and limiting, even though it has pointless mechanics like letting you carry around boxes and barrels and random objects that do nothing for no reason. And quests where you're escorting a chicken

Last edited by starlord7; 08/12/20 10:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by starlord7
Maybe I'll come back to DoS II later but if nothing else, Larian needs to give us an option to speed up enemy combat animations. I can't say enough how aggravating it is to wait for every last slug to slowly cast a spell, especially when they start crawling over from the far edges of the map and I didn't know they were there.
With DoS you can get endless resurrect scrolls and beat every encounter. You can have one of your characters leap out of combat, take a waypoint to a merchant, buy potions and scrolls, and teleport back to your team that's been paused "in-combat" all along.That's game-breaking.
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Well I like all those games. A few of them, I even love. I don't see why they're unimpressive.

imo its because so many people now seem to define themselves by the particular bits of trashy popular culture they consume (including video games) and so then when someone likes what they dislike or dislikes what they like it becomes a personal attack, an attack on their very selves. This is pretty funny because its all about video games which are just fancy toys.


Some of us like to debate, I often have an opinion that goes against the grain and I usually get banned from every forum after one post, I'm suprised this thread went so far.
Maybe I have a vivid imagination but I like games with a lot of customization, and making a full custom party in Pillars was why I enjoyed it so much. DoS is a lot more confining and limiting, even though it has pointless mechanics like letting you carry around boxes and barrels and random objects that do nothing for no reason. And quests where you're escorting a chicken


You know what game also had a side quest were you escort a chicken?

Baldur’s Gate.

And you can make full custom parties in BG3. Right now it isn’t fully implemented yet so you can only do so by creating LAN games with yourself, but BG3 full release will have it as an option you can select from the get-go.

DOS2 also had full custom parties added in one update.

Last edited by Warlocke; 08/12/20 10:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies


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Everybody always says that New Vegas is Obsidian's best game, or only good game, whatever. It seems to be the prevailing opinion. But I didn't even like New Vegas much, and I love a bunch of Obsidian's other games, so I guess I'm a weirdo.


Here's my favorite Obsidian games in descending order:

1. Alpha Protocol
2. Tyranny
3. Neverwinter Nights 2 (and expansions, especially Mask of the Betrayer)
4. The Outer Worlds
5. Pillars of Eternity 2
6. Pillars of Eternity
7. New Vegas, I guess


The first two, especially, are among my favorite games of all time.

Was gonna say that New Vegas in the bottom is weird, then I saw Alpha Protocol on top.

Last edited by Danielbda; 08/12/20 11:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3

Well, it sold well .... for an indian game. It is considered one of the best cRPGs of ... modern years, because there is really nothing for the past 10 years.

And those 2 arguments are too fallacious. I am yet to understand all the buzz about DOS2, except it came out from a very sterile era.



There were tons of good CRPGs that came out in this new renaissance era of CRPGs.

Wasteland 2
Torment Tides of Numenera
Shadowrun Returns
Shadowrun Dragonfall
Shadowrun Hong Kong
Pillars of Eternity
Pillars of Eternity 2
Tyranny
Masquerada
Pathfinder Kingmaker
Divinity Original Sin
Divinity Original Sin 2


To the best of my knowledge, DOS2 sold the best out of all of those. By a wide margin, even.




CDPR is currently the only studio that understands how immersion is central to a RPG. They really mastered the technique.



And yet the combat in their Witcher games is horrendous.
CP2077 seems to step up the game though.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by kanisatha

The D:OS games were deplorable in every aspect. Yes, I only played the first game, but everything I hated about that game is also to be found in the second game, so I see zero reason to try it.

As for BG3, it also has horrible combat.



The second Original Sin is a big improvement over the first in every single respect. It's much less silly.

Well, gotta go now. I need to go find the forums for a company whose games I absolutely hate and post 1000 times there.

We were having a good discussion. Was it really necessary to be asinine?

I only started posting here when Larian announced a game titled BALDUR'S GATE. As a diehard fan of the original BG games, a pretty reasonable thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies



Here's my favorite Obsidian games in descending order:

1. Alpha Protocol
2. Tyranny
3. Neverwinter Nights 2 (and expansions, especially Mask of the Betrayer)
4. The Outer Worlds
5. Pillars of Eternity 2
6. Pillars of Eternity
7. New Vegas, I guess


The first two, especially, are among my favorite games of all time.

Well the only respectable thing about this list is putting Tyranny high.

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I disagree. It would have become forced first person since that is what they seem to be making nowadays and I can't play those. I haven't played any other Larian games yet but so far they have held my interest with BG3 and that is hard to do because I tend to find isometric TB boring and unimmersive. Can't even finish the first BG because of this.

Originally Posted by Argyle
It seems like all game creators go through the same phases. When they are a bunch of gamers and artists trying to get a business going, they sometimes make ground-breaking products. But when they are a business who is trying to make games, the spirit is just not the same.

Agreed. Often there is a disconnect between what the corporate types who see only the money making want to see, and what the developers want to create as well.

Originally Posted by Danielbda

They couldn't have gone in a better direction.
Systems like Vampire and Cyberpunk are not traditional party-based RPGs, they work very well in first person, as Bloodlines already shown. For a game in this setting an immersive FPS is much more interesting than a top down isometric game.

Would have loved to play these but FPS makes me puke. I agree that TPS/FPS is more immersive though.


Originally Posted by Madscientist

Real time or turn based is a matter of taste. Some players like this more and some like something else.
DnD is turn based per definition and 5E is harder to put in real time than 2E or 3E, at least I have not seen a real time 5E game so far.

I would love to see 5E done as a TPS, unfortunately I don't think it would be possible.

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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Well I like all those games. A few of them, I even love. I don't see why they're unimpressive.

imo its because so many people now seem to define themselves by the particular bits of trashy popular culture they consume (including video games) and so then when someone likes what they dislike or dislikes what they like it becomes a personal attack, an attack on their very selves. This is pretty funny because its all about video games which are just fancy toys.


Lol. Funny how people draw psychological profiles through internet. It tells more about you than others.

Originally Posted by Danielbda
And yet the combat in their Witcher games is horrendous.
CP2077 seems to step up the game though.


I think it is fun. People vastly differ in what they consider a good combat in these days.

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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Well I like all those games. A few of them, I even love. I don't see why they're unimpressive.

imo its because so many people now seem to define themselves by the particular bits of trashy popular culture they consume (including video games) and so then when someone likes what they dislike or dislikes what they like it becomes a personal attack, an attack on their very selves. This is pretty funny because its all about video games which are just fancy toys.


I think people are just conservative about what they like. Everyone is like this. If they love something they will defend it and try to preserve and protect it so that it can continue to exist into the future.
I don't think it's about defining one's self, it's about becoming attached to something valuable.

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If this game was called anything BUT BG3 I think Larian is doing an incredible job.
Marketing it as a BG game is definitely getting setting some expectations that are not met, tied to the old games.

But in 2020, who actually played the old games? less than 10% of the community??? Most impressions are now NEGATIVE towards these brilliant games.
So basically IGNORE the title, and enjoy the game. Its sad but thats to be expected with this Dragon age/ Witcher type game generation.

I am sure that Larian employees understand that and actually do still play and enjoy the old games wink

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I played the old games, all of them, and I'd hate to see an exact remake. I see what Larian is coming with as superior in most aspects. It is a bit rough on edges and requires some balancing, that's what EA is for.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm not sure Larian was not the good studio but it's a shame they just never talked about the old BG during their interviews.
Oh yeah "they said that everyone in the company played the old games before they start working on BG3" -> seriously ? Anyone believe this ?

Now we can understad why : If we don't consider D&D (which is only a part of BG), nothing feels like BG in BG3 except the beautifull worldmap^^
Whatever we're talking about combats, party size, control, ambiant, day/night, rest, (fast) travel, random encounter, world design, user interface, ...

Larian has done NOTHING for BG3 to taste a bit like a "new gen BG"... The only things are probably a far far link with the story and a companion to ""please"" the fans (like Han solo in SW7^^).

Baldur's Gate 3 taste D&D and maybe the FR even if we could disagree on many things about this one... but it has nothing to do with the old BG.
(every games using D&D and the FR aren't named BG).

I hoped they have done something for this game to have a feeling of BG, but they don't.


Hard to disagree. I'm not even a BG purist, i'm trying right now to finish my first trilogy run, which probably won't happen because Cyberpunk, but even just the main menus give a different vibe.

I would say, though, that capturing the feel of a game is pretty hard to begin with, especially so when what you're trying to capture is the feel of 20 year old isometric rpgs and import it into a Dragon Age style game.


Hard to disagree too...
It's not only about "a feeling", it's about real mechanics or visual

- Fast travel could work on the worldmap => like in BG
- A few menu/popup could have some kind of parchment as background and a better font than times new roman => like in BG
- Party of 6 is possible => like in BG
- Day/Night cycle is something that was a kickstarter goal for DoS si it's possible in their engine => like in BG
- Random encounter is also possible when you fast travel or rest => like in BG
- The first act map could have been divided in a few maps to give more consistency to the world and the story => like in BG
- Going back to a town, to a village or an inn is also something in BG. The burning inn could have been a place to rest, to buy/sell and to meet characters => like in BG
- Dice rolls at the character creation is something in BG, they could have implemented both point buy and dices roll.

I'm not saying everything here is fine, that's not a list of suggestions but there are many other exemples of things that was a part of the old BG and that could have been a part of BG3.

I guess no one asked them to copy/paste anything from the 20 yo BG games... But they did nothing for BG3 to looks like BG. That's a fact and according to me, even if I like BG3... it's a shame and I really understand those that are strongly dissapointed.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 09/12/20 09:56 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rieline
Also sorry but i can't help but laught when i read: CDPR should had done that.

CDPR is what turned one of my favourite pen and paper franchise in a First Person Shooter. So no. I am glad CDPR did stay far away from D&D and BG

Never forgive. Never Forget.

Yup, this 100%. And the complete arrogance of ignoring all feedback about the dangers for migraineurs, epileptics, and people with other photosensitivity or motion conditions was stunning in all the worst ways. They didn't just make it in a way people who don't like FPS "don't like it"... they made it actively harmful!

There was no need to turn it FPS, there have been many many successful and well done 3rd person scifi RPG's to back that up. Hell there have been other CYBERPUNK games that prove it was purely a dev choice/opinion, not a 'necessary' way to present the game. Between that fiasco, the way they treated their staff for the last 2 years, and the fat jokes shoehorned throughout Witcher 3, I'm completely done with CDPR. Couldn't be happier that Larian got the gig.

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