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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I guess no one asked them to copy/paste anything from the 20 yo BG games... But they did nothing for BG3 to looks like BG. That's a fact and according to me, even if I like BG3... it's a shame and I really understand those that are strongly dissapointed.


That's exactly the problem. I'm A-okay with BG3 being a game that makes use of all the modern tools and it's more than appropriate for a Baldur's Gate main entry to set a new standard for cRPGs and push the genre forward. However, more than anything, it should still be BG in more than name and a couple of story connections. But people are quick to dismiss such concernes with "you just want a copy-paste of 20 year old game". No. That's not it. Please stop using this "argument".

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Let's be honest - it's impossible to please everyone.
Every time someone is trying to do something with "legends", just like Baldurs Gate, there always be 3 or more groups of people:
The one who loves it, hates it, neutrals, and everyone between. It is a normal flow.

I was a huge fan of Fallout 1 and 2, when there was an announcement for Fallout 3 i was super excited - but then it turns out that this is 3rd person, no isometric view etc. It was not my pair of shoes. I didn't play any of this game to this day - not because I'm super mad about them - It's just not something I enjoy.

For me, Larian was a very good choice for BG3 - and I really enjoy it so far. Is it perfect? No. Is there a huge potential that this will be the game that I will play for the next couple of years? Yup.

It's really surprising for me that some of the people - who don't quite enjoy the game, generally don't enjoy it because of the title, and how much it's different than the imaginary BG3 - it's nothing wrong with it - I'm just surprised.

Back in the days, when I was a kid, I owned a collection edition of Baldurs Gate 2, and I was hoping for so many years for BG3, for me they nailed it - but for others, it could be a story like me vs fallouts series.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Warlocke
And I’m so happy that WotC didn’t give the game to Obsidian. POE2 was a joyless, humorless game with a sterile, overly balanced rule system that I ultimately found a chore to sit through. I didn’t find the story particularly compelling, either.

DOS2 is one of my newest favorite games of all time, and I’m enjoying the marriage between Divinity and Baldur’s Gate.

Exactly the opposite of my experiences. D:OS was easily the worst RPG I've ever played, and every single aspect of that game was a painful chore, worst of all the horrible world the game is set in.

By contrast, everything about the PoE games was awesome, from the world to the characters to the story. And the best part of those games is the new set of rules they created that are NOT based on D&D/D20, which is one of the worst rulesets for RPGs.

Besides, seems you're admitting BG3 has a lot of D:OS in it, despite all of the many attempts at denial in this forum. wink

Opinions are like assholes...everyone's got them. As for POE2 vs DOS2 there is simply no contest if you move past subjective preferences and *your* obvious fanboyism. Despite Larian being a relative newcomer on the scene, DOS2 outsold POE2, who was a big flop, by a factor of ten or more. DOS2 likewise outperformed POE2 in metacritic scores both from critics and users. When it comes to moral integrity/business model, Larian is a shining beacon compared to Obsidian which pretty much washed their hands of a still buggy game with performance issues, while Larian polished and released an enhanced edition free for game owners.

That said, I too agree with some of the criticisms against Larian; they have failed to this far deliver on their promise of faithfully implementing DnD and instead gone with what worked well in DOS2 but works less well within the DnD framework. BG3 have convinced me that is has the makings of a truly great RPG when it comes to actual roleplaying and story narration, the characters are interesting and the voice-acting superior to just about anything I know. This is still early, early access, so pushing the panic/entitlement button is way too premature.

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I did play bg1,2 and been playing Ad&d since a kid. my biggest joy of bg3 is the emphasis on dialog, and feeling like a real role playing game.

the hardest part for me honestly is the camera.

I saw that it was to be 'based on D&D' and '5E rule set' specifically. yet that doesn't hold them to strict guidelines. based is just based. and even bg1 , 2 have core rules options and a handful of other diffuculty modifiers which in its time were the best they could do to customize it.

I feel like this deviates in some ways from the rule set. yet at least in 2e from my day. The DMG itself said these rules are simply guidelines. they were not intended to be strict. Many groups had house rules.

So it being strict to D&D at its core is minor to me IF it really emphasizes role playing. and it does. very well actually. i feel aware of my npcs, and the townsfolk, and consequences for my actions. plus i can just engage, find new info, have meaningless dialog and banter at camp.

In that way, this is MORE D&D than many games with the title, according to the forward in D&D's own manuals.

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Originally Posted by starlord7
I wish this was made in the style of Pillars of Eternity II but even more refined. Pillars II was so impressive, imagine what a company who actually understands and respects Baldur's Gate would have achieved.

I'm playing Divinity II, got to Arx and I've lost all interest in playing the game. The mechanics is some of the sloppy and exploitable stuff I've ever seen, but Larian seems to think everything is peachy and they importing nearly all those gaming concepts into Baldur's Gate. But what I really can't stand is the slowness of turn-based combat and how every enemy goes through a slow casting animation, it makes combat frankly unbearable.

Larian, while creative and brilliant, seem totally whimsical to me as if they don't even give a $*** what we think. A lot of the game mechanics in Divinity II are so unnecessary and sadistic, Obsidian had a faaar better understanding of paying homage to Baldur's gate and I would have LOVED RTwP... they deserved to make it, it's all so sad the state of the world these days, no offense meant to Larian but why can't they make a Divinity III with faster combat instead, it's like some executive saw that Divinity gets good reviews on metacritic and they gave it to them based solely on that.


i dont have a problem with turn-based combat. i thought larian this time would move out of their comfort zone and maybe do something different. but no sadly. it's basically a DOS2 clone. completed EA and i would say i'm terribly disappointed. They basically make a DOS2 game using the DND5e and it turns out worst. Lost the flexibility like in DOS2 and you just keep.. miss.. miss.. miss. Out of the biggest offender would be 4 party character. From earlier Baldur's Gate of 6 reduced down to 4. Game is not fun and often most of the battles are pre-scripted and pre-placed where there are high grounds for you to shove and battles are outrageously unfair and resorting you to abuse barrelmancy.

In all honesty.. Larian is a wrong choice for Baldur's Gate 3. It doesn't have the Baldur's Gate feeling at all. I would have be much happier if they were to be making DOS3 instead and leave BG3 to Obsidian. Sure it seems to look very succesful as Larian is banging on hype and nostalgia. It won't work long term and they can only keep repeating doing the same DOS formula till one day their review will get a low 4/10.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Warlocke
And I’m so happy that WotC didn’t give the game to Obsidian. POE2 was a joyless, humorless game with a sterile, overly balanced rule system that I ultimately found a chore to sit through. I didn’t find the story particularly compelling, either.

DOS2 is one of my newest favorite games of all time, and I’m enjoying the marriage between Divinity and Baldur’s Gate.

Exactly the opposite of my experiences. D:OS was easily the worst RPG I've ever played, and every single aspect of that game was a painful chore, worst of all the horrible world the game is set in.

By contrast, everything about the PoE games was awesome, from the world to the characters to the story. And the best part of those games is the new set of rules they created that are NOT based on D&D/D20, which is one of the worst rulesets for RPGs.

Besides, seems you're admitting BG3 has a lot of D:OS in it, despite all of the many attempts at denial in this forum. wink

Opinions are like assholes...everyone's got them. As for POE2 vs DOS2 there is simply no contest if you move past subjective preferences and *your* obvious fanboyism. Despite Larian being a relative newcomer on the scene, DOS2 outsold POE2, who was a big flop, by a factor of ten or more. DOS2 likewise outperformed POE2 in metacritic scores both from critics and users. When it comes to moral integrity/business model, Larian is a shining beacon compared to Obsidian which pretty much washed their hands of a still buggy game with performance issues, while Larian polished and released an enhanced edition free for game owners.

HAHAHA. Talk about fanboyism. Living in glass houses and all that.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I guess no one asked them to copy/paste anything from the 20 yo BG games... But they did nothing for BG3 to looks like BG. That's a fact and according to me, even if I like BG3... it's a shame and I really understand those that are strongly dissapointed.


That's exactly the problem. I'm A-okay with BG3 being a game that makes use of all the modern tools and it's more than appropriate for a Baldur's Gate main entry to set a new standard for cRPGs and push the genre forward. However, more than anything, it should still be BG in more than name and a couple of story connections. But people are quick to dismiss such concernes with "you just want a copy-paste of 20 year old game". No. That's not it. Please stop using this "argument".

+1

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I guess no one asked them to copy/paste anything from the 20 yo BG games... But they did nothing for BG3 to looks like BG. That's a fact and according to me, even if I like BG3... it's a shame and I really understand those that are strongly dissapointed.


That's exactly the problem. I'm A-okay with BG3 being a game that makes use of all the modern tools and it's more than appropriate for a Baldur's Gate main entry to set a new standard for cRPGs and push the genre forward. However, more than anything, it should still be BG in more than name and a couple of story connections. But people are quick to dismiss such concernes with "you just want a copy-paste of 20 year old game". No. That's not it. Please stop using this "argument".

+1


a yes and no from me. on one hand while watching this i truly was curious and eager to see how this related to the bhaalspawn story. on the other hand 1/2 E is the time period where the story of the war where bhaal died, and the bhaalspawn story take place. 5e is much later in the D&D history timeline. It would be somewhat obtuse to a lot of people if they in 5e rehashed old faerun history. All that considered I would much rather it be a new name, yet i also understand that baldurs gate is a city. so in theory anything relating to that city could share the title. It will absolutely rub people the wrong way over its development. I never played the DOS games, so i have no way to compare this in that regard. Yet it is a fun story, its engaging, and has a lot of roleplay mechanics.

I will add that the video game culture has changed dramatically since bg1/2. we were a lil more lowkey back then, to be fair. we could have ripped it apart for not being strict to 2e ( it wasn't ) we could have complained that it was similar to icewind dale etc. ( order of release irrelevant ) so companies do what works for them for mechanics. this is no way perfect its still EA there is time to read the feedback and make changes.

I will give them credit because to take up the name Baldur's Gate ... well its a huge endevor in itself. because we know we cannot please everyone, we know how easily that opens up for criticism. its a big choice for a company.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Everybody always says that New Vegas is Obsidian's best game, or only good game, whatever. It seems to be the prevailing opinion. But I didn't even like New Vegas much, and I love a bunch of Obsidian's other games, so I guess I'm a weirdo.

Here's my favorite Obsidian games in descending order:

2. Tyranny

4. The Outer Worlds

7. New Vegas, I guess

The first two, especially, are among my favorite games of all time.

Edited to exclude the stuff I haven't played, but yeah, that, pretty much. I liked New Vegas, but less than the other two Obsidian games shown there and less than the other two modern Fallout games (not including that MMO thing). It's okay, but in the same way that Gothic 3 is okay.

Based on my previous comments about objectivity and stuff I'm not claiming that this is anything but an opinion; just an opinion from someone who remains mystified about why FNV gets so many accolades from self-styled hardcore gamers.


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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Opinions are like assholes...everyone's got them. As for POE2 vs DOS2 there is simply no contest if you move past subjective preferences and *your* obvious fanboyism. Despite Larian being a relative newcomer on the scene, DOS2 outsold POE2, who was a big flop, by a factor of ten or more. DOS2 likewise outperformed POE2 in metacritic scores both from critics and users. When it comes to moral integrity/business model, Larian is a shining beacon compared to Obsidian which pretty much washed their hands of a still buggy game with performance issues, while Larian polished and released an enhanced edition free for game owners.

HAHAHA. Talk about fanboyism. Living in glass houses and all that.

Guys, quit calling each other fanboys.


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Are we talking about Obsidian from times of yore? If so, partial agree - despite the poorly handled tone.

I definitely think the best Obsidian had to offer would quite easily outshine Larian in terms of storytelling and companion writing. Larian's writing hovers around the line of mediocrity, with an unfortunate tendency towards the whimsical, even when they try to explore darker and more serious angles.

They are quite good at making the game part of a videogame, though. Their turn-based combat design in particular has been a favorite of mine in the genre. I really enjoy the use of the environment (barrelmancy memes aside) and verticality. I also think their quest design is pretty good.

I will say that BG3 feels perfectly DnD to me, as the system encompasses a wide variety of possible tones and styles. It does *not* however scratch the same itch for me that the older games did. And I would lie if I claimed I wasn't disappointed by that realization.

When it comes to spiritual successors, I hope Owlcat can eventually fill those shoes. They have their own problems, but have demonstrated tremendous willingness to learn and improve. I think Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous has a good shot at recreating the feel of older DnD titles.

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Originally Posted by starlord7
I wish this was made in the style of Pillars of Eternity II but even more refined. Pillars II was so impressive, imagine what a company who actually understands and respects Baldur's Gate would have achieved.


Well, Obsidian would have been an excellent choice and afaik they were willing to develop BG3 10-12 years ago.
However I think POE is not a good model for a BG3 game.
I am a POE hardcore fan and I know where it comes from. A very small budget game made thanks to the fans, for the fans. POE(1) is a true jewel in the gaming industry but it is clearly not appealing to the masses.
For that, imho, you need 1) a more epic ambiance, not so refined, not so finely honed 2) a less intellectual narrative 3) and it greatly pains me to say it, a not so elitist combat system.

Pay attention to Obsidian's plans, let them develop Avowed which may well combine the best of many genres. OP rejoice! Its lore comes from POE.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
So I have quite mixed feelings on this. If someone asked me about this a couple of months ago, I'd say I wouldn't trust Obsidian to do BG3 justice and that Larian is the best choice - after I've read the interviews and watched the team speak with such passion about this project. I actually did say this many times and argued with the nay-sayers.

But now that we've seen EA... Idk. It seems Larian has a very, VERY different idea about what BG is and what BG3 should be than I do. And I dare say I'm not the only one. (Obligatory disclaimer: no, I'm not calling for IE copy-paste.)


100% this.

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Originally Posted by Blacas


Well, Obsidian would have been an excellent choice and afaik they were willing to develop BG3 10-12 years ago.
However I think POE is not a good model for a BG3 game.
I am a POE hardcore fan and I know where it comes from. A very small budget game made thanks to the fans, for the fans. POE(1) is a true jewel in the gaming industry but it is clearly not appealing to the masses.
For that, imho, you need 1) a more epic ambiance, not so refined, not so finely honed 2) a less intellectual narrative 3) and it greatly pains me to say it, a not so elitist combat system.

Pay attention to Obsidian's plans, let them develop Avowed which may well combine the best of many genres. OP rejoice! Its lore comes from POE.


Yeah I definitely see the combat as one of the main issues with PoE, it just makes it unplayable for me. I could put up with the atrociously bad setting if at least killing things was fun.

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Originally Posted by Blacas
Originally Posted by starlord7
I wish this was made in the style of Pillars of Eternity II but even more refined. Pillars II was so impressive, imagine what a company who actually understands and respects Baldur's Gate would have achieved.


Well, Obsidian would have been an excellent choice and afaik they were willing to develop BG3 10-12 years ago.
However I think POE is not a good model for a BG3 game.
I am a POE hardcore fan and I know where it comes from. A very small budget game made thanks to the fans, for the fans. POE(1) is a true jewel in the gaming industry but it is clearly not appealing to the masses.
For that, imho, you need 1) a more epic ambiance, not so refined, not so finely honed 2) a less intellectual narrative 3) and it greatly pains me to say it, a not so elitist combat system.

Pay attention to Obsidian's plans, let them develop Avowed which may well combine the best of many genres. OP rejoice! Its lore comes from POE.

Absolutely, I love PoE and yet fully agree it would not be a good model for BG3. The whole point of the new mechanics Sawyer developed for PoE was to have it be something very different from D&D/D20 mechanics, which Sawyer has openly stated.

And yes, I am super stocked for Avowed. smile

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Ultimately, with BG3, it is the name that it all comes down to for me. If everything else about this game were exactly the same except for it having some other name than BG3, my reactions would be completely different. My curiosity for a new D&D game and my love of cRPGs would've caused me to come take a look. Once I got that look I would've said "Nah, this doesn't look like a good game to me at all," and walked away. But the moment it was named Baldur's Gate 3, that changes everything.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Ultimately, with BG3, it is the name that it all comes down to for me. If everything else about this game were exactly the same except for it having some other name than BG3, my reactions would be completely different. My curiosity for a new D&D game and my love of cRPGs would've caused me to come take a look. Once I got that look I would've said "Nah, this doesn't look like a good game to me at all," and walked away. But the moment it was named Baldur's Gate 3, that changes everything.


am i not alone in feeling that the name gripped me, yet equally i felt like it was so unexpected what i received?

i actually like the bg3 game in its current experience, yet i definitely hit a point where i wondered if the name choice was simply to acquire a userbase, where a new D&D title may not have achieved the same

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Obsidian hmm... I have never played Starwars but Neverwinter Nights 1 (Bioware &Obsidian) vs Neverwinternights 2 (Obsidian created)? Neverwinter Nights 1 was better. The tool to create stuff in Neverwinter Nights 1 took more time true but amazing persistent online worlds community created and lots of modules.

Neverwinter Nights 2 was not bad, (though lots of bugs at release), but never gave me jaw drapping experiences like Neverwinter Nights 1 did with 3D and community created content.

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Originally Posted by AzAthena
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Ultimately, with BG3, it is the name that it all comes down to for me. If everything else about this game were exactly the same except for it having some other name than BG3, my reactions would be completely different. My curiosity for a new D&D game and my love of cRPGs would've caused me to come take a look. Once I got that look I would've said "Nah, this doesn't look like a good game to me at all," and walked away. But the moment it was named Baldur's Gate 3, that changes everything.


am i not alone in feeling that the name gripped me, yet equally i felt like it was so unexpected what i received?

i actually like the bg3 game in its current experience, yet i definitely hit a point where i wondered if the name choice was simply to acquire a userbase, where a new D&D title may not have achieved the same


Of course it's about acquiring a consumerbase, why do you think people keep watching newver and newer starwars movies? Because they love the brand!
BG is a cult classic and it's a time-tested game that is still great to play to this day, people love it and want more of it.
Using this franchise is only bad if they give us a product that caters to the masses instead of delivering high quality. Sadly catering to the masses is definitely happening, because under our current economic incentives bigger numbers mean more income, and profit is why people make video games. BUT I think that Larian has some people on top who are actually passionate about gaming, which may actually make this game decent. I don't see any reason to expect the worse so far.
I will begin whining when they reveal the edgy female tiefling paladin companion who is more of a snowflake then the damn vampire in our party ( whom I dearly love ).

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Originally Posted by Bruh

I will begin whining when they reveal the edgy female tiefling paladin companion who is more of a snowflake then the damn vampire in our party ( whom I dearly love ).


a paladin with cripplingly low fire resistance does sound like a bad move.

and yea i am aware of marketing tactics/ reasons. it does not discredit that i am cynical, untrusting, and move through life trying to keep expectations to a minimum least i be disappointed. its still nice to hear echos of ' did you do this for the hype ' in regards to the name.

again, i like this game, i tend to be more passive and roll with i will like a game or not, i didnt make it, i dont have to like it. if i buy something that isnt good, well learn, and buyer beware. however agree that this game has great roleplay potential. i also think with a name this big. this long after... we know a million ideas of what 'should be' come to the table. all that aside, ill repeat its a bold move to pick up this name by any company, and i hope it works our for larian. It draws so much attention, it have consequences good/bad.

--fixed quote mistake

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