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Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin
I think most everyone who has hunted out of a tree stand would disagree.

Pretty much haha, I was hoping another hunter would be here to chime that point.


But why is it easier?

Is it because:
- the target gets closer to you because it doesn't see you?
- there are bushes/foliage along the forest floor that impede your sight on the ground?
- is it because you can literally just sit there while you wait?

Just speculation here, these all seem like things that would make hunting easier from a tree stand, but really don't make the target easier to hit.

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Originally Posted by Nezix
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin
I think most everyone who has hunted out of a tree stand would disagree.

Pretty much haha, I was hoping another hunter would be here to chime that point.


But why is it easier?

Is it because:
- the target gets closer to you because it doesn't see you?
- there are bushes/foliage along the forest floor that impede your sight on the ground?
- is it because you can literally just sit there while you wait?

Just speculation here, these all seem like things that would make hunting easier from a tree stand, but really don't make the target easier to hit.






Those things do make the target easier to hit though

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For the sake of game balance, and to preserve a mild benefit for seeking higher ground (that is in line with 5E rules) – I would suggest removing the advantage to hit for the high ground attacker and instead give them a +2 to AC vs attacks from below.

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Originally Posted by Veilburner
Originally Posted by Nezix
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin
I think most everyone who has hunted out of a tree stand would disagree.

Pretty much haha, I was hoping another hunter would be here to chime that point.


But why is it easier?

Is it because:
- the target gets closer to you because it doesn't see you?
- there are bushes/foliage along the forest floor that impede your sight on the ground?
- is it because you can literally just sit there while you wait?

Just speculation here, these all seem like things that would make hunting easier from a tree stand, but really don't make the target easier to hit.






Those things do make the target easier to hit though


These things add up to getting advantage for attacking a foe who is unaware of you – not high ground. In 5E you *do* get advantage if you are hidden when you attack.

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Originally Posted by Veilburner


Those things do make the target easier to hit though


It seems like these things make it easier to set up a shot, but once you are taking a shot, you have a smaller target (unless what you're shooting is wider than it is tall). So they help hunting, but in a vacuum if you had to shoot a dummy target from the same distance at 45 degrees (up high) or 0 degrees, it would be easier to do so from the ground.

All that being said, if we're talking real life, I expect the angle is never that extreme. How high is the average tree stand, 20 ft? How far is your target? I just have to speculate here, but I imagine it could vary wildly. They'd have to be 20ft from the bottom of your tree to get a 45 degree angle. At 100 ft the angle is going to be pretty small (11 degrees) so the target size is going to barely decrease at all.

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Shooting from higher ground is easier since you have a wider
target though not smaller.

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Originally Posted by Veilburner
Shooting from higher ground is easier since you have a wider
target though not smaller.


I like learning things so please educate me, how does the target get wider? I'm aware that if you were shooting at someone who was laying on the ground that the higher you got the larger the target area would be, but for a an average humanoid shape that's facing you I don't see that happening, as illustrated in the first post.

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Originally Posted by Nezix
Originally Posted by Veilburner


Those things do make the target easier to hit though


It seems like these things make it easier to set up a shot, but once you are taking a shot, you have a smaller target (unless what you're shooting is wider than it is tall). So they help hunting, but in a vacuum if you had to shoot a dummy target from the same distance at 45 degrees (up high) or 0 degrees, it would be easier to do so from the ground.

All that being said, if we're talking real life, I expect the angle is never that extreme. How high is the average tree stand, 20 ft? How far is your target? I just have to speculate here, but I imagine it could vary wildly. They'd have to be 20ft from the bottom of your tree to get a 45 degree angle. At 100 ft the angle is going to be pretty small (11 degrees) so the target size is going to barely decrease at all.

TLDR: High elevation should provide minor to no accuracy bonuses. Low elevation should suffer accuracy penalties at targets in higher elevations.

As far as "target area goes" shooting from a tree stand or higher elevation does not make it "easier to shoot". A bigger target makes the target easier to shoot. So yes, standing on the same elevation where the target is presented squarely for the shot is the better shot. But, the advantage of gaining the high ground specifically for hunting is getting the better vantage point. That reflects directly into a combat situation as well. A higher elevation lets you see your target's "location" and the area around it.

Now let's translate that to game speak. The way the game treats vision advantage from the high ground is spot on. The higher you are, the more you can see, the more you can hit. When it comes to accuracy in game. I said this earlier but i think it's silly that you get such a big accuracy bonus. I think the character with the high ground should get some bonuses but it should not be the say all be all for better accuracy. Honestly what should give a shooter better accuracy is distance, that is the say all and be all for better accuracy hence bigger target. Which i believe is already implemented and is great to see. (Im downloading the game as i type)

The only other thing i believe elevation should play a part in, is that the character in the lower elevation should suffer accuracy penalties on attacks at characters in higher elevations.

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Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang


The only other thing i believe elevation should play a part in, is that the character in the lower elevation should suffer accuracy penalties on attacks at characters in higher elevations.


Good form and practice overcomes accuracy penalties from both low and high ground. The first time you practice shooing from an elevated or lower position you'll probably shoot high with each. With practice you can be as accurate shooting uphill or very close to shooting on level terrain. With practice and good form you can be more accurate from an elevated position than level ground, maybe because less arc idk really know why. However I still struggle with good form shooting at a steep downward angle as maintaining the 'perfect T" and only bending at the waist is tough (for an older guy) but those shots are rare in reality. Damage is less from low ground and more from elevated ground IRL. Gravity really plays a surprising factor in projectile speed.

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Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang


The only other thing i believe elevation should play a part in, is that the character in the lower elevation should suffer accuracy penalties on attacks at characters in higher elevations.


Good form and practice overcomes accuracy penalties from both low and high ground. The first time you practice shooing from an elevated or lower position you'll probably shoot high with each. With practice you can be as accurate shooting uphill or very close to shooting on level terrain. With practice and good form you can be more accurate from an elevated position than level ground, maybe because less arc idk really know why. However I still struggle with good form shooting at a steep downward angle as maintaining the 'perfect T" and only bending at the waist is tough (for an older guy) but those shots are rare in reality. Damage is less from low ground and more from elevated ground IRL. Gravity really plays a surprising factor in projectile speed.



DOS2 had insane damage boosts from high ground, at least we’re not dealing with that here.

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Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin

Good form and practice overcomes accuracy penalties from both low and high ground. The first time you practice shooing from an elevated or lower position you'll probably shoot high with each. With practice you can be as accurate shooting uphill or very close to shooting on level terrain. With practice and good form you can be more accurate from an elevated position than level ground, maybe because less arc idk really know why. However I still struggle with good form shooting at a steep downward angle as maintaining the 'perfect T" and only bending at the waist is tough (for an older guy) but those shots are rare in reality. Damage is less from low ground and more from elevated ground IRL. Gravity really plays a surprising factor in projectile speed.

While true, all of this matter little. What matters is that this height advantage/disadvantage adds too much to the strategy to be just abandoned. I am pretty sure Larian is smart enough to understand that and ignore this thread even if it gets to 100 pages.

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Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang


The only other thing i believe elevation should play a part in, is that the character in the lower elevation should suffer accuracy penalties on attacks at characters in higher elevations.


Good form and practice overcomes accuracy penalties from both low and high ground. The first time you practice shooing from an elevated or lower position you'll probably shoot high with each. With practice you can be as accurate shooting uphill or very close to shooting on level terrain. With practice and good form you can be more accurate from an elevated position than level ground, maybe because less arc idk really know why. However I still struggle with good form shooting at a steep downward angle as maintaining the 'perfect T" and only bending at the waist is tough (for an older guy) but those shots are rare in reality. Damage is less from low ground and more from elevated ground IRL. Gravity really plays a surprising factor in projectile speed.



There are a lot of factors to consider in all of this. So we can only try to play the factors as evenly as its two identical shooters in skill and weaponry, the only difference is that one is elevated on a platform and the other is ground level. There's no denying that the elevated shooter will gain the better lay of the land compared to the ground shooter. So when it comes to "accuracy" specifically, there's no real gain or loss in either position. But if it were the heat of battle and both shooters had the intent to launch an arrow thru the other's body. One shooter has an active look at the others full lay of land, while the other can only see the one spot where the shooter may or may not shoot from.

I guess imagine it like bird watching. Is it easier to maintain "focus" on a bird hopping around on the ground from bush to bush while you are above it, or when you are on the ground and it's hopping from tree to tree.

Again lots of minor factors to weigh on. Let's hope we can find a solid shared opinion haha.

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I hope that's the biggest take away from this thread haha. Getting crazy amounts of bonus attack damage for being in the "High ground" was ridiculous.

Last edited by YT-Yangbang; 08/12/20 10:45 PM.
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Since I already touched this theme in my feedback topic I'll start with the link https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=737932#Post737932

So... you're partially right, partially wrong, OP.
The assumption that it's much harder to hit a target just because it's smaller is wrong. On short distances an archer never aims at the border of the silhouette, he aims at the center of the silhouette. So overall silhouette size changes nearly nothing for a normal trained archer, it's somewhat a dot for him anyway. For better understanding how aiming happens with the bow - https://youtu.be/Y-RnSsP3ix8

In the game we have laughable 18m distance for ranged weapon.

What really creates problems it's shooting straight downwards or at very small angle downwards with bows and crossbows, because of their construction and the way you would normally handle those weapons for precise aiming. It as BraveSirRobin said:
Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin
at a steep downward angle as maintaining the 'perfect T" and only bending at the waist is tough


Also you scheme on "prone" disadvantage is wrong. It looks as if our archer would lay down himself to shoot the prone target.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Since I already touched this theme in my feedback topic I'll start with the link https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=737932#Post737932

So... you're partially right, partially wrong, OP.
The assumption that it's much harder to hit a target just because it's smaller is wrong. On short distances an archer never aims at the border of the silhouette, he aims at the center of the silhouette. So overall silhouette size changes nearly nothing for a normal trained archer, it's somewhat a dot for him anyway. For better understanding how aiming happens with the bow - https://youtu.be/Y-RnSsP3ix8

In the game we have laughable 18m distance for ranged weapon.

What really creates problems it's shooting straight downwards or at very small angle downwards with bows and crossbows, because of their construction and the way you would normally handle those weapons for precise aiming. It as BraveSirRobin said:
Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin
at a steep downward angle as maintaining the 'perfect T" and only bending at the waist is tough


Also you scheme on "prone" disadvantage is wrong. It looks as if our archer would lay down himself to shoot the prone target.

Sorry if I’m derailing this thread, but do you think ranged spell attacks should work the same way?

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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Sorry if I’m derailing this thread, but do you think ranged spell attacks should work the same way?

I would imagine that spells should work perfectly as normal with no advantage or disadvantage, but with cover rules implemented. A spellcaster directs his spells by one of mental abilities so they should be affected not by physics, but by his comprehension.

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I think some of the disagreement here may be language - I think everyone agrees someone on high ground has an advantage, and someone on low ground has a disadvantage - the questions is; should someone on high ground have "Advantage," and someone on low ground have "Disadvantage?" I would argue, No.

Advantage is equivalent to +5, or a 25% increased chance to hit. Same with Disadvantage in the negative. A +5 is the same as 3/4 cover. So, at an equivalent distance shooting at someone above you, in the open, is equally hard as if they were at your elevation with 3/4 cover - I'm just not seeing it.

I agree some modifier is appropriate, but would prefer to see a +2/-2 (same as 1/2 cover), over full Advantage/Disadvantage. As it is now, it just seems to make one combat strategy far to powerful, and, IMHO, makes combats a bit boring; get high ground and ping away until dead. Move to next target.

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Originally Posted by jmos

I agree some modifier is appropriate, but would prefer to see a +2/-2 (same as 1/2 cover), over full Advantage/Disadvantage. As it is now, it just seems to make one combat strategy far to powerful, and, IMHO, makes combats a bit boring; get high ground and ping away until dead. Move to next target.

They need to balance that a bit better indeed, right now it is a bit too much. Most of the time it is really hard to quickly get the high ground though, so balancing it will make combat easier, not harder. Most of the tough fight enemies get to the high ground really well. Think mama spider, rooftop goblins, githyanki with teleport spells. Having said that, do we have any projectile defense spells in 5e? That would change the balance dramatically in those situations.

Last edited by Choosen of KEK; 09/12/20 12:44 AM.
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High ground should not give ranged advantage or any other modifier for ranged combat.
Because of the way the engine functions it should be easy to have it automatically calculate cover based on how many obstacles are between you and the enemy and when you have the high ground there will be less obstacles and thus cover naturally even without giving you a special numerical bonus.

If the engine is not able to do such calculation, then just have high ground downgrade cover by 1 level.

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Agree, first time through, when you don't know what to expect.

After that, it's easy to sneak up on the roof with the goblins in the blighted village and take them out.

If you leave 2 party members up on the bridge it's easy to beat up the githyanki.

Many goblin fights in the scantum you can get above them and pick them off; they rarely get in a hit.

After taking out all the goblins in the sanctum, I find it fun to come out on the upper deck and take out all 20-some of them in the courtyard and see how little damage I can take. Move up, shoot, back off - shooting fish in a barrel. This also shows some limitations with the AI; if you don't go near the side with the steps (left side looking at it) they won't climb up and rush you. They should be able to swarm you, but don't. Mostly try ineffectively to hit you while you take them out.

The current mechanic makes misty step super valuable, along with Jump and the Roques ability to Dash twice.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this breaks the game as implemented. I just think it would be balanced better if the mechanic wasn't quite so overwhelming.

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