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Is it weird that I actually like Shadowheart, she is cute as fuck, pragmatic mostly, and likes Scratch.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Abits
I think your point about the dice roll is true. I don't think dice rolls should be a part of companion story arc.

This
There are way too much roll in every situation and it's very dissapointing missing things about companions because of dices.

I second/third this: if these companions are meant to represent our adventuring party members, then they are the parallel to other players in a D&D adventure, and you don't roll against players, by etiquette - social interactions are roleplay. If they aren't that, then they are NPCS, and shouldn't be getting so much spotlight... We shouldn't ever really be rolling against our party members; but if we do, it should be in a supporting way, and not as the gate-keeper to content. Insight checks might indicate something to us, but they shouldn't ever open up options that we're not allowed to say unless we pass it. If I think Astarion is holding something back, I need to be able to say so, as my personal judgement - I shouldn't be gated behind having to pass a check before I can say the line to him. Whether a character is willing to open up to me about a personal detail or not should be determined by how much they trust me, not by an on-the-spot skill check.

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Is it weird that I actually like Shadowheart, she is cute as fuck, pragmatic mostly, and likes Scratch.

I mean, she's also rude, standoffish above and beyond acceptable expectations, condescending, holier-than-thou, smug and hypocritical, and she doesn't believe that turnabout is fair; she'll eagerly press you for details about private matters, get sniffy if you won't immediately spill your guts to her, demands that you reveal information about your experiences to her, and justify it as wanting to see how well your thoughts/beliefs align first, but will not at all respect you if you think or behave the same way towards her - and will in fact ramp up her condescending attitude towards you, or act like you're being an idiot, if you do so. Only for *her* though - *she's* the only one that you're stupid for keeping secrets from; she likes it when you deceive anyone else... oh and also has a fair pinch of racism thrown in, back-handed religious zealotry, and is the kind of personality that jumps at the opportunity to trash-talk and insult people who think differently from her.

But to answer your question, no, it's apparently not weird... Apparently a lot of people don't find any of that off putting enough to overrule the fact that she's a conventionally attractive human-like female, and the only such available currently (discounting Minthara). Some also find her story compelling enough to overrule all of that; I'm trying to do so, but have not succeeded yet.

I'm doing a play through currently where I keep her in the party, do her events and play nice with her about her secrets as and when they come out.... my opinion of her behaviour is not *much* improved, considering that she suggested we talk about it at camp later, and then when I tried to her first response was to snap at me with anger about how *she* doesn't have to tell *me* anything... she's seemed a bit more reasonable in some places since I learned her secret (only achievable by passing *multiple* easy to fail checks, and forgoing other dialogue options forever in order to pursue them), and has been at least palatable on the journey so far... but she's certainly not seeming like the kind of person I, or most of my characters, would choose to associate with.

I don't know if I've hit her 'new' dialogue lines yet, the ones that are different from the original; folks have said I'll be able to tell, because they're jarring and different, but I don't actually know what and where they are, and so far I haven't encountered anything that feels like it's out of character for her, or obviously new or different.

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Eh, sometimes all the women around you suck (are not nice). Does not bother me.

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You know, maybe it's because i woke up feeling SJW, but i kinda wish the companions had had their genders swapped. Don't get me wrong SH is my favorite one and Lae'zel is just a bit too 100% all the time, but i get the feeling the strong independent shtick wouldn't have been a thing if the two most outwardly hostile companions had also been the only males among them.

Maybe the genderswap would have lowkey made Astarion tolerable too, who knows.

Last edited by Innateagle; 19/12/20 08:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by Innateagle
You know, maybe it's because i woke up feeling SJW, but i kinda wish the companions had had their genders swapped. Don't get me wrong SH is my favorite one and Lae'zel is just a bit too 100% all the time, but i get the feeling the strong independent shtick wouldn't have been a thing if the two most outwardly hostile companions had also been the only males among them.

Maybe the genderswap would have lowkey made Astarion tolerable too, who knows.
Bruh Astarion and Shadowheart are the only companion I have no complaints about.
BUt yeah, I agree on Laezel, she is a dude with titties.

Last edited by Bruh; 19/12/20 10:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by Niara
I mean, she's also rude, standoffish above and beyond acceptable expectations, condescending, holier-than-thou, smug and hypocritical, and she doesn't believe that turnabout is fair; she'll eagerly press you for details about private matters, get sniffy if you won't immediately spill your guts to her, demands that you reveal information about your experiences to her, and justify it as wanting to see how well your thoughts/beliefs align first, but will not at all respect you if you think or behave the same way towards her - and will in fact ramp up her condescending attitude towards you, or act like you're being an idiot, if you do so. Only for *her* though - *she's* the only one that you're stupid for keeping secrets from; she likes it when you deceive anyone else... oh and also has a fair pinch of racism thrown in, back-handed religious zealotry, and is the kind of personality that jumps at the opportunity to trash-talk and insult people who think differently from her.
I'm not sure whether your criticism is about the quality of her writing, or are you just being critical of her behavior. If it's the later, it's fine I guess, and a matter of personal tastes. Not to say I approve of her behavior or anything, I just think it is an interesting character to have. If you think it's a writing issue, I have to disagree. I think these "contradictions" in her behavior are intended. And it's clearly the start, not the end. I also think you kind of treats all of the dialogue you have with her as if it all happens at the same time... because a lot of what you talk about (how she is not willing to share anything but want to learn anything) gets addressed later (She tells you everything she knows other than her mission, and literally can't tell you much more).
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But to answer your question, no, it's apparently not weird... Apparently, a lot of people don't find any of that off putting enough to overrule the fact that she's a conventionally attractive human-like female, and the only such available currently (discounting Minthara). Some also find her story compelling enough to overrule all of that; I'm trying to do so, but have not succeeded yet.
that oversimplification is not completely wrong, but I could say the same about Astarion and Gale and say that's the only reason they are so popular and call it a day. seems weak imo.
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I'm doing a play through currently where I keep her in the party, do her events and play nice with her about her secrets as and when they come out.... my opinion of her behaviour is not *much* improved, considering that she suggested we talk about it at camp later, and then when I tried to her first response was to snap at me with anger about how *she* doesn't have to tell *me* anything... she's seemed a bit more reasonable in some places since I learned her secret (only achievable by passing *multiple* easy to fail checks, and forgoing other dialogue options forever in order to pursue them), and has been at least palatable on the journey so far... but she's certainly not seeming like the kind of person I, or most of my characters, would choose to associate with.

I don't know if I've hit her 'new' dialogue lines yet, the ones that are different from the original; folks have said I'll be able to tell, because they're jarring and different, but I don't actually know what and where they are, and so far I haven't encountered anything that feels like it's out of character for her, or obviously new or different.
The problem with her new dialogue is that it's really different than what you describe. Now since you don't like her so much, it will probably won't improve your opinion about it. that's why I am so opposed to it. I feel like if they wanted to change her, they should have made a much bigger change instead of this half assed one that just makes her inconsistent.


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I was just answering another person's question with my view on that matter; whatever the expected justifications or explanations, it doesn't alter the facts - and they are facts - that she behaves towards you as I described, and that is the source of my dislike.

Aside from those factual details, my reading of her from that is, of course, all just personal opinion.

Sure, maybe she does tell you more later, if you pass a half a dozen checks over the course of several events... but that doesn't *change* the fact that she is the sort of person who will eagerly press *You* for information, get huffy, snide or agitated at you when you *Don't* spill everything to her, but in the same breath and at the same point in her development, will *Not* consider it fair for you to ask the same questions of her, and will get angry and condescending at you for doing so.

It doesn't *matter* what the justification for that is. It IS what it is, and it's atrocious behaviour.

It's about her characterisation, yes, but it's also about the writing - because obviously they want to write her in a way that will make people want to unpack her story and find out - and from my perspective, they fail at doing so abysmally. If I show interest, the game punishes me, and she's just generally an unpleasant person to be around the vast majority of the time; NO, I'm not interested in devoting time and energy to someone whose primary reaction to anything is to insult, belittle, condescend or act superior towards - with almost no exception, for the first chunk of your interactions, even when angling more positive. Even when you DO learn more, and she *Invites* you to talk to her about it later - her next response is to snap waspishly at you for daring to have the impertinence to follow her up on that invitation. I'm sorry, I play this game to have fun - not to be treated like dirt for even trying.

Like I said; I don't KNOW if I've hit her 'new' dialogue or not yet, because I hadn't seen the old on its own before this playthough... I'm up to the point where she's told me what I think is more or less everything (I know she likes a certain type of flower, and cannot, apparently swim). It's been less than pleasant a journey, and I've had to frequently swallow any objection I would otherwise take to her trash-talking of other people's beliefs and views, just because I'm trying to actually get her dialogue unpacked, and any wrong word at any point cuts it short, or seems to. Certainly, if I have seen any of the 'new' dialogue, I could not distinguish it from what was there before just by listening. As I said, I don't know.

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How did they change Laezel? I never made it very far before the last big patch.

Also, not sure why the female party members, in particular, need to be nice. There are unkind women, and given how randomly the party is brought together in the beginning (alien abduction), it’s conceivable that no one in the party, or even none of the women in the party, would be nice.

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Originally Posted by LTowey
How did they change Laezel? I never made it very far before the last big patch.

Also, not sure why the female party members, in particular, need to be nice. There are unkind women, and given how randomly the party is brought together in the beginning (alien abduction), it’s conceivable that no one in the party, or even none of the women in the party, would be nice.


They didn't change Laezel. They change Shadow.


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How about a female member tha ttalks to me? It's impossible to get anything out of SHadowheart, when you botch the dice rolls. I find it ok, if some stuff is behind a charisma check or something like that, but everything? I onyl get from her 'Leave me alone, I don't want to talk to you'. I'm at the point, where I just leave her alone, don't talk to her anymore and just explore Faerun without her.

I don't get it. I mean, I barely used Astarion in my group and he spilled all the beans about himself in the second or so conversation. Same with Wyll or Gale. Even Lae has more to say and she is very foscussed on getting the tadpole out of her - which I find ok. I get Lae, she is in a foreign land, she has a time bomb inside her and she is very disciplined and focussed on getting the problem solved. She isn't the most social character, but that's ok. Shadowhunt is basically the only character that doesn't talk at all to me - apart from the dreams. That's the strangest part - she doesn't tell me about herself, her life, her godess, but she tells me about her erotic dreams - thanks for sharing but no thanks in that case rolleyes.

I don't really view either SH or Lae as evil. SH seems to genuinly care about the wellbeing of the Tiefling refugees (that was the one thing, I got out of her apart from her very personal dreams) and seems to be glad, we helped them.
Lae comes from a very strict warrior culture (from what little I know about the Githyanki) and seems to simply hate weekness in others. I wouldn't call that evil, just a lack of empathy maybe.
So far, Lae seems to be the only companion without a drama in the background, which is kind of refreshing. I hope, it stays that way. I see a lot of work for the other companions already in the future plus a moping priest that reminds me of a very moody teenager.

Edit, because
I just met the Githyanki patrol and they were searching for a polyhedron weapon - and I was thinking of the thing, that SH is protecting. If she is the reason, we've got into that really hard fight, so help me, I'll end her, if I can.

Last edited by fylimar; 20/12/20 07:00 PM.

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I avoided this thread because I didn't like the title but I see some good posts so here goes --

I'm with @abits on this one. There is a difference between disliking a character and thinking the writing is bad. I don't like Gale, he's manipulative, he mansplains, and I think he's a phony. He's Anomen + Yoshimo. Like Yoshimo he's superficially charming but I think he's hiding his real motives and will sell us out the Raphael. Still, the fact that he annoys me tells me that I think of him as a person and that tells me he's well written.

Now, like others, I want some friendly companions of both genders. Where is Imoen, my best friend who always had my back? Where is Mazzy, the eternally optimistic Joan of Arc character?

But what I don't want is to change Shadowheart into Aerie. With Patch 3 there is a disconnect between SH words and her facial expressions. SH gets the tension of the situation: we need to think about our own needs, we have a timebomb our head -- in just few short days we are going to have tentacles exploding from our mouths. We have time to help others, why, exactly? Yet, despite those words, she is walking around with slight smile on her face. It's like she's been possessed by Aerie.

The BG2 logo had multiple meanings -- it was about alignment, the battle of good and evil, about the struggle between the drow and surface elves and it was about your companions. The golden feathered headdress of an avariel (with a hamster tucked in) and the cowl of a drow. Viconia and Aerie were designed to be polar opposites -- one NPC was moody and often insulted the party; in a romance Viconia initially resisted all attempts at intimacy but, in a classic tsundre move we find that her exterior hides a gooey center. Aerie, on the other hand, was all sugar and spice quick with the compliment and ready to commit and have children with the first man she ever slept with.

BG3 has replicated the battle of light and dark but instead of surface elves and drow we have Shar and Selune. Shadowheart is Viconia and we need to have an "Aerie" to balance her out. But we shouldn't try to make SH into Aerie.

The line about seeing promise in the relationship should only come near the end of the game where SH has either renounced Shar or persuaded Tav to join the dark choir. Shar doesn't want he followers to see promise in a relationship or to look to new horizons. Shar wants her followers to nurse their resentments and cling only to the hope that they will one day experience the eternal darkness of the spotless mind.

Clearly the people who disliked SH aren't happy with the changes so I really hope they revert to personality 1.0

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Since I'm pretty new to the game, I only know current SH. What exactly did they change? DId they make her nicer? Not that I notice much of that - I botched every check so far, so she basically doesn't talk to me. I don't think, she can ever become an Aerie , without a really drastic character change - not that I want an Aerie, she annoyed me so much in BG2. I had a real cleric problem there, because I didn't like Anomen and Aerie and Viconia didn't get along with my favorite fighters Mazzy and Keldorn.

And I'm ok with companions not all being nice or easy (but I want my best friend too - I'm thinking more of Varric from DA), I just think, they overdid it with SH insofar, that she doesn't talk at all to you, when you don't suceed in the dice rolls. I would maybe change that, it leaves too much to chance. I mean, I'm nearly done with my first playthrough and all I get from SH is 'Leave me alone', 'Don't talk to me' and 'Don't ask questions'. I don't need her whole life story, but I don't even know the basics, she is a very moody blank slate for me.


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One of my favorite TV shows -- sadly cancelled -- was Counterpart. If you've not seen it, it's a sci fi analogue for the Berlin wall. (and selfhood, self reflection and some other stuff)

In this show an experiment creates two different dimensions that are locked in a cold war. In one dimension the main character is an office drone and devoted husband, in the second dimension he's a Machiavellian spy who carries a deep resentment for his ex wife. Each of the two characters have to enter the other dimension and pretend to be the other. The actor was so good at controlling facial expressions and body movement that you could always tell which was which even when then two were wearing identical clothes. The office drone slumped his shoulders, he let gravity pull his wrinkled face to floor and he only sincerely smiled when he saw his wife. The spy held his head above others, he walked with a sense of purpose and he wore his contempt for others on his face. Much of the story was written on the face of the main character.

Orphan black, if you've seen that, was similar -- really helps your understand how you can tell stories with facial expressions.

SH1 had a resting scowl. When you pushed her to reveal personal information the scowl deepened to irritation and anger. She only smiled twice -- once when you mentioned night orchids and during the romantic wine scene. The next morning, after the kiss, she broke off the relationship and said it was a mistake. (which is the same thing that Viconia did, break the relationship only to start it again / break it off again / start it again)

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Oh, agreed BG2 had a cleric problem. Annoyamen was, well, annoying and that only leaves you with Aerie and Jaheria. Which is a problem but I took it as a welcome problem since the evil party is sooo much powerful than the good party and that went along with the 'evil path' / 'good path' story.

Personally, I don't think SH is overdone

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I don't see how anyone who ever played Bg2 with even a little Viconia can say SH is overdone. I mean the way dialogue worked in BG2 created situations when Viconia would initiate a conversation just to insult you and tell you how lame you are. Sweet, sweet Viconia


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My favorite Viconia insult comes right after you save her from vamprism " . . . your words flow like curdling milk."

Anyway -- I will say that @fylimar's reaction speaks to the need for: 1) an entirely good party and 2) for BG3 to have 17-18 NPCs just like BG2 had. What if we get a good party and it's made up of people as annoying as Aerie, Anomen and Gale? We needs lotsa choices.

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I don't understand why they made one of the biggest changes be how she reacts after the romance scene. Surely the people pursuing her romance her were the ones for whom her existing personality was fine?

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Originally Posted by NorimizuRintarou
Surely the people pursuing her romance her were the ones for whom her existing personality was fine?
I assume you're not a hetero male.

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Yeah, a good party would be great, I agree.
My only concern with SH at the moment is, that all her conversations are packed behind a wall of roll checks. And as lucky as my girl is normally with rolls, she didn't manage to succeed in a single conversation roll with SH. You can end the EA with not having had one normal conversation with her.

Btw:I do like Gale, apart from his little problem.


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Originally Posted by fylimar
Yeah, a good party would be great, I agree.
My only concern with SH at the moment is, that all her conversations are packed behind a wall of roll checks. And as lucky as my girl is normally with rolls, she didn't manage to succeed in a single conversation roll with SH. You can end the EA with not having had one normal conversation with her.

Btw:I do like Gale, apart from his little problem.
Well, I understand and share this frustration from companion content being locked behind dice rolls. This is stupid period. They should find better ways to develop her story. and they already have approval system in place, why not use it?
However, I don't think it's a problem with shadwoheart as a character and you shouldn't conflate the two together


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"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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