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If a character is lying about themselves and has no reason to trust you, then it's good use of the game mechanics to use dice rolls.
And that's SH. She can't trust you so to get through to her or get a straight answer you're going to need sense motives and persuasion checks to get through it.
If you're going to have a character who just complies to the player because they're the player, then it would be frustrating if they were written as deceptive and untrusting. Her gameplay is good as it's shaped to her characterisation.

This is assuming the approval rating effects the DC of the roll, if not then that would be the solution. As SH is entirely written as a character who kepts things from friends, and there really isn't enough time in the EA so far so even count as that.

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in my opinion, all the companions seem pretty friendly, depending how you talk to them.

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Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by NorimizuRintarou
Surely the people pursuing her romance her were the ones for whom her existing personality was fine?
I assume you're not a hetero male.

What is that supposed to mean

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Not me, I want to roll with Kagha and Minthara and Lae'zel.

By all means, add more "nice" companions. I'll probably ignore most of them, but don't go all schizo with the existing personalities. If they want sugar and spice, just add more companions with new personalities.
I thought I knew you Shadowheart? But you've changed!
lol

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Originally Posted by NorimizuRintarou
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by NorimizuRintarou
Surely the people pursuing her romance her were the ones for whom her existing personality was fine?
I assume you're not a hetero male.

What is that supposed to mean

Don't you know that the kind of personalities people like is directly corellated with their sex and sexuality? kappa

Last edited by Kadajko; 22/12/20 04:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by fylimar
Yeah, a good party would be great, I agree.
My only concern with SH at the moment is, that all her conversations are packed behind a wall of roll checks. And as lucky as my girl is normally with rolls, she didn't manage to succeed in a single conversation roll with SH. You can end the EA with not having had one normal conversation with her.

Btw:I do like Gale, apart from his little problem.
Well, I understand and share this frustration from companion content being locked behind dice rolls. This is stupid period. They should find better ways to develop her story. and they already have approval system in place, why not use it?
However, I don't think it's a problem with shadwoheart as a character and you shouldn't conflate the two together

I didn't say that the dice role diminishes SH as a character, I only said that it is annoying, that her whole character development is behind dice roles. I can't say much about SH character apart from her snapping at me when I ask a question now, after 4 or so botched roles. I think, for this playthrough, I won't get any more from SH, maybe I have more luck next time - because that's all that is - luck. I wish, at least a few of her conversations were based on things you actually do, but apart from the dreams, which get reactions from all companions, there is just nothing.


And I'm all for more companions.

Edit: I finally succeeded in a roll and found out something about SH - I want fanfares now. I think, it wasn't really me, that convinced her, but the dog (he was standing behind me, looking at SH with big eyes).

Last edited by fylimar; 22/12/20 05:31 PM.

"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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Dogs are an important yet overlooked aspect of reciprocal communication.

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Originally Posted by Starshine
Dogs are an important yet overlooked aspect of reciprocal communication.

I fully agree.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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Originally Posted by NorimizuRintarou
Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by NorimizuRintarou
Surely the people pursuing her romance her were the ones for whom her existing personality was fine?
I assume you're not a hetero male.

What is that supposed to mean
I wouldn't take the fact that they're pursuing romance with her as evidence either way about how they feel about her personality, just that they like the way she looks. It's not like they're deciding to have a real life long term relationship with her (at least I hope not).

Last edited by Labayu; 26/12/20 08:13 AM.
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Ngl this thead made me laugh. Yes! We'll get good aligned female companions eventually, Larian simply needed to launch the bad ones first because... if I recall it correctly, there was an issue with people not caring much about the bad characters they created on previous games. Something along these lines.

Originally Posted by Ankou
I keep seeing people saying we get evil first so expect them to be abrasive and unlikable. The best evil people are super charming. They're just selfish. Astarion is actually a great example of this. Shadowheart isn't even really that evil, and seems to be evil despite herself frankly, and I'm guessing the story will explain that in such a way that she isn't even bad. Nonetheless, Laezel makes perfect sense to me. I mean look at the other Githyanki we meet. Damn!

I know right, I they are absolutely charming. They did a great job on the character design, that's for sure.

Last edited by A_va; 27/12/20 05:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by Niara
I was just answering another person's question with my view on that matter; whatever the expected justifications or explanations, it doesn't alter the facts - and they are facts - that she behaves towards you as I described, and that is the source of my dislike.

Aside from those factual details, my reading of her from that is, of course, all just personal opinion.

Sure, maybe she does tell you more later, if you pass a half a dozen checks over the course of several events... but that doesn't *change* the fact that she is the sort of person who will eagerly press *You* for information, get huffy, snide or agitated at you when you *Don't* spill everything to her, but in the same breath and at the same point in her development, will *Not* consider it fair for you to ask the same questions of her, and will get angry and condescending at you for doing so.

It doesn't *matter* what the justification for that is. It IS what it is, and it's atrocious behaviour.

It's about her characterisation, yes, but it's also about the writing - because obviously they want to write her in a way that will make people want to unpack her story and find out - and from my perspective, they fail at doing so abysmally. If I show interest, the game punishes me, and she's just generally an unpleasant person to be around the vast majority of the time; NO, I'm not interested in devoting time and energy to someone whose primary reaction to anything is to insult, belittle, condescend or act superior towards - with almost no exception, for the first chunk of your interactions, even when angling more positive. Even when you DO learn more, and she *Invites* you to talk to her about it later - her next response is to snap waspishly at you for daring to have the impertinence to follow her up on that invitation. I'm sorry, I play this game to have fun - not to be treated like dirt for even trying.

Like I said; I don't KNOW if I've hit her 'new' dialogue or not yet, because I hadn't seen the old on its own before this playthough... I'm up to the point where she's told me what I think is more or less everything (I know she likes a certain type of flower, and cannot, apparently swim). It's been less than pleasant a journey, and I've had to frequently swallow any objection I would otherwise take to her trash-talking of other people's beliefs and views, just because I'm trying to actually get her dialogue unpacked, and any wrong word at any point cuts it short, or seems to. Certainly, if I have seen any of the 'new' dialogue, I could not distinguish it from what was there before just by listening. As I said, I don't know.

Everything Niara said about Shadowheart is 100% my experience with her. In BG2 I liked the romances with Jaheira or VIcona. DAO - Morrigan. Isabella in DA2, the evil Thiefling in Pathfinder. And naturally Yen in Witcher 3. It's not that I can't handle strong female characters, I actually prefer them and can't stand princess-/save-me-type females. So in theory Shadowheart should be in my lane, but she is horribly written. The only reason I tried talking to her after the first couple of comments was that I wanted to see if I can unlock the content and if somehow she would surprise me - but those rolls prevented it and I simply didn't care at all about her enough to keep trying. She acts like you desparately need her and she is in possession of power that you need or that you are completely enthralled by her wit... well she doesn't and I ain't.



Lae'zel... yeah, if you want to play evil maybe you can find some connection to her. I think she is ok when it comes to writing, but I simply don't care about an alien rassist that proves to be pretty clueless about her own faction or anything else you encounter. So yeah, well written, but completely uninteresting for me if I don't want to play something along her lines. Combined with SH though you get 2 out of 2 female characters that think highly of themselves while acting quite dumb and constantly belittering you - surprisingly that doesn't connect with a part of the audience.

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Tbh none of the females seem to be especially evil. Edgy maybe, but not evil.
Lae'zel comes from a obviously harsh society and compared to the other Githyanki you meet, she is OK. She is dedicated to find a cure and to get on with her life without the ticking time bomb in her head, which is understandable imo.
SH gives you approval for saving the Tiefling, being nice to animals and even agreeing to help the Mykonids. Not really evil imo.
Are they likeable? I guess, that depends on what a player like in their companions. I'm OK with both of them (although I would like, if not all of SH dialigues would be behind dice luck), but I want a some more fun loving companion, someone not quite as serious, like Isabela or Sera, as another female companion next.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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The whole Gith ideology is evil. So being not that bad for a Gith - I'm still calling her evil wink Going on with her life means doing Gith things and that's not about being nice to puppys smile

For Shadowheart - I don't care if she is evil or what else. Truth to be told, I don't care about her at all and that is the problem. Evil characters can be great. Even romance between a good PC and an evil NPC can be entertaining. But honestly, I only talked to Shadowheart because I knew her quest is locked behind her dialog and I didn't want to miss out - pure metagaming, forcing me to listen to her crap, which is a bad sign for a story driven element and I don't see me even bothering with it once the game comes out because I can't stand her BS as Niara summarized it perfectly.

Last edited by biomag; 27/12/20 07:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by fylimar
Tbh none of the females seem to be especially evil. Edgy maybe, but not evil.
Lae'zel comes from a obviously harsh society and compared to the other Githyanki you meet, she is OK. She is dedicated to find a cure and to get on with her life without the ticking time bomb in her head, which is understandable imo.
SH gives you approval for saving the Tiefling, being nice to animals and even agreeing to help the Mykonids. Not really evil imo.
Are they likeable? I guess, that depends on what a player like in their companions. I'm OK with both of them (although I would like, if not all of SH dialigues would be behind dice luck), but I want a some more fun loving companion, someone not quite as serious, like Isabela or Sera, as another female companion next.

Lae'zel gets horny for you after you slaughter a bunch of people and she doesn't care if those were goblins or a bunch of refugee kids.

Shadowheart worships a Goddess that wants the living world to end.

Last edited by Kadajko; 27/12/20 08:35 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Shadowheart worships a Goddess that wants the living world to end.

Shadowheart whines if you kill the tieflings and it closes romance with her. So I think she is neutral.


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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by fylimar
Tbh none of the females seem to be especially evil. Edgy maybe, but not evil.
Lae'zel comes from a obviously harsh society and compared to the other Githyanki you meet, she is OK. She is dedicated to find a cure and to get on with her life without the ticking time bomb in her head, which is understandable imo.
SH gives you approval for saving the Tiefling, being nice to animals and even agreeing to help the Mykonids. Not really evil imo.
Are they likeable? I guess, that depends on what a player like in their companions. I'm OK with both of them (although I would like, if not all of SH dialigues would be behind dice luck), but I want a some more fun loving companion, someone not quite as serious, like Isabela or Sera, as another female companion next.

Lae'zel gets horny for you after you slaughter a bunch of people and she doesn't care if those were goblins or a bunch of refugee kids.

Shadowheart worships a Goddess that wants the living world to end.

I know all of that, I just said, that both don't really DO evil things so far - at least not in my (first) playthrough - and there is so much emphasis in every companion thread, that our current companions are the evil ones, yet I don't really see it? Maybe with Astarion, I forbid him to kill innocents, yet I get the impression, he wouldn't loose sleep over killing someone completely innocent.

I could see Lae'zel betraying us in the future for her people or for getting rid of the tadpole. I don't think she cares, if any of her companions will get rid of theirs, she only sticks with us, because we could help HER.

With SH I have no idea, what will happen. As mentioned, she gives approval when helping the Tieflings and the Mykonids and when you are nice to animals (hell, petting the dog Scratch gives you approval), yet her goddess is not a nice one to say at least.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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I could only see SH betraying or acting against you out of desperation or self interest, not ideology, despite the god worship I'd say she's CN from her behaviour maybe, I could even see her as CG but hiding it if it wasnt for clerics needing to be in neighbouring or same alignment with diety, but that rules out CN too, so I'd guess shes NE, Evil in that she's selfish but not enough to wish harm to others or enjoy seeing it? It's awkard to place her given the little information so far. But she's definitely not evil laugh evil or anything. While she worships Shar, that doesn't equal wants the whole world and everyone in it to die, she's not a frothing doomsday fanatic and seems way too selfish/proud to be cool with the world ending in her lifetime.
With Lae'z I'd only see her betraying us if a superior rank Gith told her too as she's loyal to that cause above everything. I can see that by the time we get rid of baby frogs (if ever) she might be as loyal to the party as the war as I'm guessing that's her arc, either that or getting burned by the gith so going vengence but she seems L to me, but LE, LN or LG idk. I know her approval probably rules out LG, but given Gith have alien morals that could be LG for her, we've seen LG humans who are pro- killing innocent goblins/drow/etc in the past, Lae'z could be LG as a send up to Keldorn and the bigoted paladins of BGpast.

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SH's traditionally evil, no two ways about it. If she was simply selfish and out for herself, which she mostly is, an argument could be made, but she supports destroying the grove, going so far as disapproving of betraying the drow at the last second, and only shows regret after killing a bunch of kids. That's not really being neutral in my book.

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Originally Posted by fylimar
could help HER.

With SH I have no idea, what will happen. As mentioned, she gives approval when helping the Tieflings

Protecting tieflings and feeling sorry for them is evil though.

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Originally Posted by Bruh
Originally Posted by fylimar
could help HER.

With SH I have no idea, what will happen. As mentioned, she gives approval when helping the Tieflings

Protecting tieflings and feeling sorry for them is evil though.
Why?


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