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Hi guys...

Does anyone know why we can face minotaurs in the underdark ???

That's very strange that 2 creatures are alone there in the game, especially because the BG3's first act map of the underdark is a cave. There is no access to the rest of the underdark except by the water and there are no minotaurs on the surface.

Considering that only a few minotaurs are supposed to live in a very specific location in the Underdark, isn't that so strange that we can cross 2 of them there ???

Did they swim a lot and are now lost ?
What are they eating ? Mushrooms ?

I always find strange to fight against these creature in the underdark especially because it looks like they're just dropped there without any connexion to the world design... But it also looks like it's not something from the FR's lore...

What do you think about it ?
Is there an explanation I missed ?

Last edited by Maximuuus; 17/12/20 07:54 AM.
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They do live in the Underdark, more specifically the north dark in a place called the labryrinth. How does anything get anywhere? Optimism my friend!

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The wiki say that a small number of them live in the Labyrinth, not that there are usual creatures in the Underdark.

If you look at a Map of the underdark and compare with the location of Menzoberranzan, the Labyrinth is supposed to be somewhere between Luskan and Neverwinter, so hundreds of miles in the North.

I hope Larian won't just pick "cool creatures" and dropped them anywhere to build BG3's world.

I guess no one care fighting 40 types of different creatures in act 1 and all of them doesn't have to be so unusual.... They don't have to pick everywhere in the MM to offer innapropriate variety.

Whatever we're talking about the underdark or the surface... There are tons of hostile creatures which could be implemented in way that suits more to the reality of the FR.

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The official dnd website lists their habitats as:

“labyrinthine dungeons, twisting caves, primeval woods, and the maze-like streets and passages of desolate ruins”

The Underdark makes perfect sense.

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holy shit you absolute pedants.

yes, i damn hope they pick cool creatures

"Nuh uh there can only be cave olms here because in this off word remark by greenwood in 1994 it says that below baldurs gate theres no were badgers"
Why is it ALWAYS you pedants who want to virtue signal about prefering boring things to non boring things.
The underdark is THE adventure place, it doesnt have to maek sense. It deliberatley does not.
DnD is a stupid game, deliberatley so. its about fighting cool monsters. You realy think that you ought to say "no im not fighting that cool monster because its only plausible and not likeley"

listen to yourselves.

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I still think the party should be higher level before encountering these tbh, the minotaurs are a pretty beefy (heh) enemy that I wouldn't expect a party that's basically just started out would be able to defeat, the underdark itself being accessible in act 1 also seems a bit much with like 5 ways to enter and exit it it seems overly accessible to stumble into it, you know, first day of the campaign and your DM tumbles you into the underdark at lvl 4? I'd assume he's done with the campaign and wants to just TKO the party and write a new campaign.

Like I go from killing goblins straight to killing minotaurs in the underdark? feels like we're skipping a whole bunch of steps here lol, like going from killing rats in the tavern for your first quest straight into running into a beholder in the same tavern cellar, like you can make it a level 1 minotaur or beholder but this does severely diminish the feeling of these monsters and reduces them to tutorial enemies IE not threatening at all, at the moment the only reason the minotaurs in the underdark are a challenge is because the party is capped at level 4, which seems to indicate they want to discourage exploration in the underdark for now? I dunno really feels off compared to what I remember the underdark being (extremely hostile & threatening not for beginning adventurers but for seasoned veterans, housing almost every actually terrifying monster & with really not many folks that don't have a kill on sight mentality from drow to driders to slime cubes to mindflayers, and all the other wildlife down there, again level 4-6 seems way too early to stumble into that place.

like I dunno but I just feel that place is currently too accessible but that might be me talking from 3e experience and not being aware of the more background changes lorewise related to the underdark, maybe between 3e and 5e the underdark just became more accessible or something? its easier to travel to and from it? I dunno

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Originally Posted by Ianthebea
I still think the party should be higher level before encountering these tbh, the minotaurs are a pretty beefy (heh) enemy that I wouldn't expect a party that's basically just started out would be able to defeat, the underdark itself being accessible in act 1 also seems a bit much with like 5 ways to enter and exit it it seems overly accessible to stumble into it, you know, first day of the campaign and your DM tumbles you into the underdark at lvl 4? I'd assume he's done with the campaign and wants to just TKO the party and write a new campaign.

Like I go from killing goblins straight to killing minotaurs in the underdark? feels like we're skipping a whole bunch of steps here lol, like going from killing rats in the tavern for your first quest straight into running into a beholder in the same tavern cellar, like you can make it a level 1 minotaur or beholder but this does severely diminish the feeling of these monsters and reduces them to tutorial enemies IE not threatening at all, at the moment the only reason the minotaurs in the underdark are a challenge is because the party is capped at level 4, which seems to indicate they want to discourage exploration in the underdark for now? I dunno really feels off compared to what I remember the underdark being (extremely hostile & threatening not for beginning adventurers but for seasoned veterans, housing almost every actually terrifying monster & with really not many folks that don't have a kill on sight mentality from drow to driders to slime cubes to mindflayers, and all the other wildlife down there, again level 4-6 seems way too early to stumble into that place.

like I dunno but I just feel that place is currently too accessible but that might be me talking from 3e experience and not being aware of the more background changes lorewise related to the underdark, maybe between 3e and 5e the underdark just became more accessible or something? its easier to travel to and from it? I dunno


My thoughts exactly. Admittedly I'm only familiar with The Underdark from BG2 where it felt a perilous place but surely it is meant for seasoned adventurers...why on earth is a lvl 4 party there in the first act?

I'm starting to wonder whether Larian can do subtlety because everything just feels so crazy and outlandish from the outset.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
holy shit you absolute pedants.

yes, i damn hope they pick cool creatures

"Nuh uh there can only be cave olms here because in this off word remark by greenwood in 1994 it says that below baldurs gate theres no were badgers"
Why is it ALWAYS you pedants who want to virtue signal about prefering boring things to non boring things.
The underdark is THE adventure place, it doesnt have to maek sense. It deliberatley does not.
DnD is a stupid game, deliberatley so. its about fighting cool monsters. You realy think that you ought to say "no im not fighting that cool monster because its only plausible and not likeley"

listen to yourselves.


I totally understand your viewpoint and it made me consider my own opinion but I don't think it's about 'preferring boring things', it's about progression...if the first act already has myriad 'cool monsters' what do we fight in later acts? What makes them 'cool' is the fact that they are rare and usually incredibly hard to defeat?

I am all for fighting interesting and unique creatures in exciting and dangerous locations but feel that there should be a logical progression to doing so.

I also don't think there is any need to label people pedants for having a different opinion.

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Haha Sordak.
Still a pleasure to read your condescending bullshit.

Why the hell Minotaurs should be the cool creatures we encounter in the underdark ? There are tons of creatures that LIVES in the underdark. Except for a very short number of them living in a very specific locations (not where we are), Minotaurs aren't usual Underdark creatures.

A new (so) original creature at every corner is all but consistent especially if its creature have absolutely no reasons to be there.

But I know you're not interrested that much in the consistency of the world. You had proven this for the last few monthes here and what you like is lolz and explosion. Once again, your very limited imagination doesn't allow you think about things without being agressive.

Originally Posted by Etruscan

I'm starting to wonder whether Larian can do subtlety because everything just feels so crazy and outlandish from the outset.


This... So much this.

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Well to be fair D&D isn't known for the consistency or the structured background (that's one of the reason a miriad of rpg followed this one).

Said that.

My point of view: something strange is happening in Faerun, not only mindfliers are making a move, but there are hidden players able to bring very different races to cooperate (Drows, Bugbears, Trolls, Goblins), furthermore said players were able to made Drows and Goblins to left their faith and embrace the Absolute, the tadpoles this fellas concocted is able to resist the powers of a hag, a high druid, a mindiflyer, it allows a lower vampire to walk under the sunlight, and even death doesn't affect its parasitic tie with character and companions.

Moreover, if my memory doesn't betray me, the Undeerdark too, in this set, is somehow immersed in a chaos of sort.

The circumstances of the area are so weird they attracted the attention of an explorer like Volo.

So I don't find strange that there are minotaurus, I won't be surprised if some enemies that are in act 1 (hag and minotaurs) are being placed there (by manipulating them from the shadows, or by force what could be happened to the minotaurus) to test the recilience, resistence, of the particular strain of tadpoles that infests the protagonists).

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This is all a matter of design and understanding the design of BG3.

When is fighting a minotaur fun?
is fighting a minotaur fun at level 10 or at level 5?

at level 10 a minotaur is probably going to replace orcs. youll fight 5 of em at a time and dont break a sweat. at level 5, a minotaur is a challenge, fighting one is a terrible battle.

If you only fight monsters at the level they are "meant" to be fought, youll end up without challenges, or with realy contrived encoutners where you fight 10 manticores.

This was normal in older DnD games where there are trash encounters that you blow through, with increasingly tougher enemies as the game ramps up.

In this game, all encoutners are hand crafted, as such the narrative feeds off tough encounters that push you to your limit.


Naturally, this wouldnt come to a surprise to you if you actually play DnD.
Enemies arent meant to be "balanced" exactly to the party, avoiding them was ofthen the entire idea, especialy in older editions where you leveled off spending your loot, rather than fighting things.
But in a narrative driven campaign, the same can be used for an "oh shit" moment.

The idea that you are "skipping" a few steps is nonsense. This is not an MMORPG, thats the entire point of the Underdark, its an "oh shit" moment.
one thats exectued pretty niceley if you ask me.


>interrested in consistency in your world
And there youre wrong.
otherwise i probably wouldnt have pages upon pages of backstory for my campaign that i rigidly enforce.
However, backstory is a means to an end, the end is the game, the story, wahtever angle you prefer.
FR is a pretty stupid setting that gets taken very seriously by people that somehow grew up with it. To me its just that tho, a kitchen sink DnD settig in which real life egyptians exist side by side with god wizards and dragon people.

Minotaurs EXISt in the Underdark. Its not likeley that youll encounter them, but its not implausible either. In fact, nothing is "likeley" in the Underdark, its a very implausible place to begin with.
Just because somethign isnt likeley to happen, doesnt mean that it isnt something that shouldnt happen for th esake of a good story.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Hi guys...

Does anyone know why we can face minotaurs in the underdark ???

...

I always find strange to fight against these creature in the underdark especially because it looks like they're just dropped there without any connexion to the world design... But it also looks like it's not something from the FR's lore...

What do you think about it ?
Is there an explanation I missed ?

Right down the bottom of the page under "environment".D&D and beyond, from the source (page 145)

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Originally Posted by Bufotenina
Well to be fair D&D isn't known for the consistency or the structured background (that's one of the reason a miriad of rpg followed this one).

Said that.

My point of view: something strange is happening in Faerun, not only mindfliers are making a move, but there are hidden players able to bring very different races to cooperate (Drows, Bugbears, Trolls, Goblins), furthermore said players were able to made Drows and Goblins to left their faith and embrace the Absolute, the tadpoles this fellas concocted is able to resist the powers of a hag, a high druid, a mindiflyer, it allows a lower vampire to walk under the sunlight, and even death doesn't affect its parasitic tie with character and companions.

Moreover, if my memory doesn't betray me, the Undeerdark too, in this set, is somehow immersed in a chaos of sort.

The circumstances of the area are so weird they attracted the attention of an explorer like Volo.

So I don't find strange that there are minotaurus, I won't be surprised if some enemies that are in act 1 (hag and minotaurs) are being placed there (by manipulating them from the shadows, or by force what could be happened to the minotaurus) to test the recilience, resistence, of the particular strain of tadpoles that infests the protagonists).

Ok let's try to think about it another way...
The first act's map is something like what ? 1km2 ?

On 1km2 you have :
- a village
- a druid grove
- a swamp
- an inn
- an outpost
- a forest
- an ancient temple
- a goblin's camp in another ancient temple (or something like that
- 3 or 4 entrance to the underdark.
-...

On this 1 km2 you have tons of different creatures.
There are no usual wolves that would have make sense but there are lots of unsusual creatures.
Some of them are here for story events, that's fine... But lots of them are supposed to live in this km2 even if they don't have any place to...

That's something I find strange and inconsistent. That's nothing related to D&D, that's related to the world and map design.

Even the gnolls are just dropped there... Maybe I miss something but where does these hyena comes from ???
A colony of hyena in the 200m between an inn and an outpost on a trade route ?
This world don't look alive at all... Everything looks completely static with things just dropped one after the other without any reasons and consistency.

It's the same in the underdark.
This is a cave of 300m2 in which you have tons of different creatures... Even creatures that aren't supposed to be there such as minotaurs.
It's not like it's a colony or something... It's just another handcrafted encounter where they decide to drop minotaurs...

As Etruscan said... That's about subtelty.

Maybe such things aren't important in a D&D campaign but usually, BG games aren't a random D&D campaign... It's a part of the FR's history and stories and BG3's world doesn't feels like a consistent location in the FR... even if references are everywhere and even if important events happen in the world.

That's not only related to minotaurs but minotaurs are the only things that bother me about the underdark's creatures.
(I could talk about how easy it is to go in the underdark... That's also inconsistent to me but that's something else).

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So your issue is that a video game is a video game.

Considering that the most popular mod for Divinity original sin 2 is the one that makes everyone run faster, i dont think that a huge ass world full of nothing so the encounters feel more "subtle" is something that the fans want.

And quite frankly i also dont think that this is what the infinity engine games were like. Look at the immense ammount of enemy packs scattered around icewind dale maps (that miraculously dont notice when someone ten meters away from them is getting killed)

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I see a problem with minotaurs in the Underdark when they live there

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
On this 1 km2 you have tons of different creatures.
There are no usual wolves that would have make sense but there are lots of unsusual creatures.
Some of them are here for story events, that's fine... But lots of them are supposed to live in this km2 even if they don't have any place to...

The wolves probably left the area when a freaking battleship fell out of the sky and wrecked half the coast or were pushed out of their natural place in the ecosystem by the horde of omnicidal hyena people who canonically slaughter everything on sight.

Or maybe there ARE wolves still in the area and they, being wolves and not mindless attack animals, simply avoid attacking our group like an actual real animal would do.


Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Even the gnolls are just dropped there... Maybe I miss something but where does these hyena comes from ???
A colony of hyena in the 200m between an inn and an outpost on a trade route ?
This world don't look alive at all... Everything looks completely static with things just dropped one after the other without any reasons and consistency.

Gnolls prefer warm plains by the nature of their condition causes them to roam far and wide to the point that they can show up basically anywhere in the world. Keep in mind Forgotten Realms is not Earth. Faerun does have deserts and warm plains sharing a continent with where this game takes place, so a horde of gnolls showing up is both not impossible and indeed even probable. That is the entire point of gnolls. They roam and a place that might not have seen them in a hundred years could end up being attacked and it is up to adventurers to save the day.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It's the same in the underdark.
This is a cave of 300m2 in which you have tons of different creatures... Even creatures that aren't supposed to be there such as minotaurs.
It's not like it's a colony or something... It's just another handcrafted encounter where they decide to drop minotaurs...

Minotaurs are native to the Underdark. Most of them are in Labyrinth, but there is no lore that suggests that they only ever appear there. Their favored terrain is underground and near ruins and OH LOOK we find them underground near a ruined temple. And even if this weren't the case it isn't like minotaurs never roam. There are minotaur communities above ground too.

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From the Underdark (Forgotten Realms 3rd edition D&D) sourcebook:

Minotaur (listed as a potential character race in an Underdark themed campaign)

"With the exception of the vast region known as the Labyrinth, minotaurs control few realms of their own in the Underdark. Most are found elsewhere, often serving as marauders, mercenaries, and slaves in the great drow and duergar cities. Minotaurs tend to be cruel, dimwitted, and violent, but they are loyal to their comrades and fearless in battle. A minotaur adventurer can travel freely through the domains of most Underdark races, selling his sword to the highest bidder. Minotaurs who turn to good often strive to break the power of slaveholding races and fight furiously for the emancipation of captives."

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Originally Posted by Sordak
So your issue is that a video game is a video game.

Considering that the most popular mod for Divinity original sin 2 is the one that makes everyone run faster, i dont think that a huge ass world full of nothing so the encounters feel more "subtle" is something that the fans want.

And quite frankly i also dont think that this is what the infinity engine games were like. Look at the immense ammount of enemy packs scattered around icewind dale maps (that miraculously dont notice when someone ten meters away from them is getting killed)

The IE games had more maps.
Smaller, but more maps and you travel between those maps. The scale of the world looks real in the old games, it doesn't in BG3 and there's a few obvious problems in the story because of it (goblins unable to find the grove which is literally 300m further on in a straight line).

And I never said there are too much ennemies... But I think there are too much different cluster on such a little map.
It gives me the feeling that every encounter is carrefully handcrafted as specific "instances" (this is really good but) without thinking about the map/the world as a whole.

Nothing really looks natural... The first part of SaurianDruid's answer is full of "maybe", "they probably"...
But if you consider the timeline of the events nothing make sense.

Again, I never said that gnolls/hyenas shouldn't be in act 1 or in this part of the world...
There are tons of event everwhere on this map and this is cool but the question of the time never had any answer.

If hyenas/gnolls were there for a few days, they would have been in the cave in which the Zetharim are.
If they just enter the area right at the time we come to them, how did they avoid goblins/githyankis/flaming fists/refugees/druids/...? Perhaps another "maybe" ?

This is an easy exemple of how this specific situation could have been more consistent to me : Zentharim on the road attacked by Hyenas coming from the cave.
It wouldn't have led to any questioning : hyenas are living there (whatever it's for a long or a short time) and just attacked lost merchants that are in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is okay when it's not about too much NPC/Creatures...


Originally Posted by deserk
From the Underdark (Forgotten Realms 3rd edition D&D) sourcebook:

Minotaur (listed as a potential character race in an Underdark themed campaign)

"With the exception of the vast region known as the Labyrinth, minotaurs control few realms of their own in the Underdark. Most are found elsewhere, often serving as marauders, mercenaries, and slaves in the great drow and duergar cities. Minotaurs tend to be cruel, dimwitted, and violent, but they are loyal to their comrades and fearless in battle. A minotaur adventurer can travel freely through the domains of most Underdark races, selling his sword to the highest bidder. Minotaurs who turn to good often strive to break the power of slaveholding races and fight furiously for the emancipation of captives."

I didn't know that.
Thanks it's very interresting.

Let's consider those 2 minotaurs are lost and just took a boat to come in this underdark cave because they find cool to stay there doing nothing except waiting for someone to attack.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
[quote=Bufotenina]Well to be fair D&D isn't known for the consistency or the structured background (that's one of the reason a miriad of rpg followed this one).


Ok let's try to think about it another way...
The first act's map is something like what ? 1km2 ?

On 1km2 you have :
- a village
- a druid grove
- a swamp
- an inn
- an outpost
- a forest
- an ancient temple
- a goblin's camp in another ancient temple (or something like that
- 3 or 4 entrance to the underdark.
-...

On this 1 km2 you have tons of different creatures.
There are no usual wolves that would have make sense but there are lots of unsusual creatures.
Some of them are here for story events, that's fine... But lots of them are supposed to live in this km2 even if they don't have any place to...

That's something I find strange and inconsistent. That's nothing related to D&D, that's related to the world and map design.

Even the gnolls are just dropped there... Maybe I miss something but where does these hyena comes from ???
A colony of hyena in the 200m between an inn and an outpost on a trade route ?
This world don't look alive at all... Everything looks completely static with things just dropped one after the other without any reasons and consistency.
.

First, your perception of geography is way off - the druid grove alone is probably at least quarter to half mile radius in size - it is no smaller than an average district in the city of BG, which presumably took an hour or two to cross in game time.
So the area we are talking about is at least 5 to 20 km in size.

Let's look art real world USA, in say the 1800's mid-west

In an area of say 5 to 20 km you might find:

- a Fort (outpost)
-a small settlement or two growing to support the outpost, given the protection it affords (a village)
- a tavern/inn/pub, cause where there are settlers and soldiers, there is booze and woman (an Inn)
- a tribe of indigenous native americans (your goblin camp)
- a group of bandits, rustlers, ...( gnolls/minotaurs)
-a mission intent on converting said indigenous native americans (a temple)
-a forest/lake/river/ because people settle where there is water to drink, wood to build with and animals to hunt
-a tribal shaman (druid grove)
- a cemetary/totem pole/sweat lodge/fill in the place of religious significance - because where people are, there is ALWAYS such a place ( an ancient temple)
-caves leading to coal/iron/gold/silver etc. mine -again where you have mountains you have caves, where you have caves and people you have mines ...(entrances to the underdark)
-An isolated farm, ranch, mill or cabin (your haglands)
- wolves, bears, bobcats, snakes, spiders, eagles, bison, and maybe a shark or three in the water.

I can point out plenty of places even in NY as an example, where in the 1700's you had a granite mine alongside the water, serviced by an ironsmith and a wheelwright, manned by folks from town, who drank in a tavern, went to church, which would try and get the local tribal natives to convert and protected by a garrison in a fort.

And that is before you take into consideration some group or other consolidating groups into an armed force for one reason or another.

As for the different "philosophies" of druids, thieflings, goblins, gnolls etc all in one area, I give you my block - democrats, republicans, independants, liberals, conservatives, progressives, libertarians of various races, religions, etc. - just in a tine piece of my neighborhood - say 50 houses.

So no, I don't see a problem with how Larian stocked the area.

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I really don't agree with you about the scale of the world.

The game is real time when it's up to movement whatever the (missing) in game clock is saying.

A usual character run at +-10km/h and our characters are running in real time. Let's say 7 or 8 because they're not running really fast.

You don't need 1 real time hour in game to go from one side of the map to another with real time running characters so no... The map is absolutely not as big as you imagine it is.

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