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Ah, another Troll post? No. Legitimate issues with Beyond Divinity. I hope Larian takes them to heart.

Some SPOILERS ahead, folks.

Before I start, let me say that I loved Divine Divinity. Great game. Wonderful game world, lots of areas to explore, good story, etc. I'm a DD fan. Thus, when BD was made available, I waited (as customary for me) a couple of weeks to pick it up and then snagged it. Got patch 1.43 and then 1.44 a few days later. That's the background. I'm through Act III on tactical level...but haven't yet finished the game.

Overall, I'm pretty disappointed in Beyond Divinity for a number of reasons. The foremost is a lack of polish and that will be evident in the reasons listed below.

- Lack of gameplay balance with monsters. Some 20th level monsters are "one shot drop" monsters. Others, like Earth Elementals, are significantly more difficult at the same level. Death Knights at level 23 are hard. Spellcasters at level 33 aren't. Some of that can be attributed to the skills my characters have, I guess. But some of it can't. And what the heck is up with accidentally clicking (while running) on a creature and having every type of that creature attack you for the rest of the level? Oops, running, clicked on pig. Now I have to stop and fight every pig on the level. WTF?

- Lack of gameplay balance with "stuff". I've accumulated more gold than I know what to do with. I can't spend it on any great stuff. I've pretty much left items scattered all over the place now. Perhaps it's because I have a high luck skill. Innkeepers have $6k to $10k in money. I have over $1,000,000 in stuff. The stuff I'm finding is worth between $1k and $8k. I can't even sell it half the time. I know some of this is random. But it's a wee bit absurd. God only knows what I would have if I had actually gotten to play the Battlefields in Act II (see below).

- Lack of ameworld polish. I don't know what else to call it. *RUN-ON SENTENCE ALERT* From potions that don't work (large stamina potions have no effect on stamina whatsoever); to objects mislabled (I had two doors in Act III alone that didn't say "door" - they said "ojbect 12345" or something like that); to characters not responding when you click on something to areas of the maps that you can't get to (and the monsters can't get to you because the land that they're on can't be reached or they're in the walls of the dungeon), there's just a complete lack of going over the finer details that just yank me out of the gameworld.

- Lack of stability. Please don't say it's my computer. I've been reading much of the same issues for many other people. Crashes, lock ups, slowdowns, etc. are prevalent. Not horribly now that it's patched, but still too often, especially after so many patches. I've had no less than half a dozen lockups/crashes. The Act II Battlefields were almost inaccessable and I haven't been back since. Once I did get there, I found reproducable crashes that prevented me from going forth. Not good. Very discouraging, especially for an engine that's already been used.

- Voice quality. God, I don't know who did the voices, but Larian should get their money back. They're horrid - almost all of them. Some of the worst I've heard in quite some time. Yes, you can turn them off. Thank goodness. But they're supposed to be part of the game. The Death Knight doesn't even have the same voice from the cut-scenes. That's more than a bit weak.

- Lack of "clues" on some quests. Perhaps it's because it's my first time through but I found many quests to be extremely vague. *SPOILER ALERT* For example, the guy who was turned into a Tibar. Found the witch that did it. She didn't want to turn him back and the only clue I get was from my death knight that we'd have to find some incentive to get her to act. I mean, the maps are huge. And all I have to go on is "incentive"? Perhaps I should have gone back to talk to Mr. Tibar again, but again, that's not a great quest. And that's just one example - I could come up with more but my fingers are getting tired.

- Lack of "clues" on transitions from Acts. Ok, we have Acts now and we can't go back. I don't like it, but I can live with it - it didn't bother me much in Baldur's Gate. But could someone give me a clue that I'm about to enter an area that I can't go back? (SPOILER ALERT) I entered the temple in Act III. Stairs collapse behind me. I go through said temple, get transported to another area and *poof*, there's Act IV. Great! Except that I didn't know I'd be blocked off from visiting half a dozen previously started quests in Act III! Those are my experience points!!! So it's either reload (groan, not again) or forget them and go forward. Bummer. I got the sword and the gem and the beasts in the tunnel and the apprentice to swear an oath and...I can't go back. *Sniff*

- Cheap deaths. Exploding chests. Hidden traps. Insta-death on both. I've run into no less than half a dozen cheap deaths like that. In places that you wouldn't expect. Most players HATE cheap deaths and I'm no exception. I have only two players - I don't have a "dedicated" thief. Don't make chests/traps explode where they can kill my 20+ level characters AT FULL HEALTH instantly.

- Skills. Enormously complicated and counter-intutitive, especially when starting the game. Some, like sharpening, are extremely powerful. Especially when you level up to 8, sharpen, and then buy them back and reapply. You can do those sort of things with $1,000,000 in the bank. A couple times. But overall, it's just a large, overly complicated mess. I appreciate the attempt, but better descriptions and better "paths" are needed to help the player through the maze that is the skill system. It wouldn't be as much of a problem the second time around, but RPGs are quite often 1-shot deals with many players.

There are other minor gripes with graphics (a bit repetitive), some of the areas simply being cumbersome or too large, the story being a bit thin, alchemy problems, lack of descriptions on crystals and charms, the disconnection between the battlefield and the rest of the game world, lack of upgrade patches for those of us on dial up, etc.

Now, if you're still with me dear reader, you may infer that I hate the game. No. If I hated it, I wouldn't be in Act IV. I'd have already stopped playing. But the above stuff really prevents BD from being more than an "average" RPG. Which is a big step down from DD. I hope Larian takes this list to heart and focuses on the finer points of polishing the next go-around. But unlike this time, I'll be reading reviews carefully before I buy because I'm feeling a bit burnt on this one.

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I feel almost the exact same way about every single thing you've written. Bravo for doing it better than I could have.

And I don't hate the game either. In fact, I'm already positive I'll buy Divinity2, when- and whatever it may come around. But there were some changes between DivDiv and this game that didn't need to be made, and there are some things that just plain need fixing in BeyDiv. I, too, hope that Larian will take it all to heart and find a way to wow us with their next product.

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Before the 1.4x patch merchant's inventories did not regenerate and there was a limited amount of gold, though still plenty if you were not frequently unlearning skills. There were many complaints about the lack of gold and items for sale. So far there have been a few complaints that there is too much gold now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />

The quest log can contain additional hints for various quests.

If you don't have a trap detect skill, then sometimes you are going to find them the hard way. I save regularly, so have not had a problem with this.

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There's definitely a lack of polish and I agree that certain things were done better in DD. A few quick responses follow, not to argue the point but to offer a different perspective.

- Why do the monsters have to be homgenous? I'm happy with variations as long as the map/area is fairly balanced overall.

- Polish. Can't disagree but everything I noticed was minor and I didn't let it bother me. Shouldn't be there, but no big deal for me.

- Stability. Not one crash or hang. I finished with v1.32 and I'm half way through Act 2 on a second trip through.

- Voice quality. This is difficult. It's patchy and not even close to the best out there but I find many of the camp voices combined well with the humour for an enjoyable result. Others, well... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

- Lack of clues. I found the difficulty of the puzzles pretty good. One of my (several) dislikes for KotOR was the inevitable datapad (from some poor pioneer before me who died, despite knowing the solution) lying just near the puzzle. Why bother?

- Transitions. Yep, agree with this but it wasn't a big deal.

- Cheap deaths. Agree with this, too. It's a bad design choice in my opinion.

- Skills. This is hard so I'll keep this short. Better balance and descriptions are needed but I don't need a "path". I like some challenge and don't need them to lay it out for me.

I simply hated the battlefields and I really hope Lar reconsiders his desire to develop more randomised content in the future (other than loot and some monster spawns). Fortunately, I just ignored them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



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My couple of cents....

- Monsters. Their level is basically only relevant to their stats, not to the damage they do. That is determined by the skills they have. I can boost my water resistance and be hard to kill by a Water Elemental, but could be an easy target when attacked by an Fire Elemental, because my resistances are too low.
And I can kill the Water Elemental with fire rather quickly, but using fire on a Fire Elemental is a useless attempt. Also there are monsters that have a high resistance to slashing, which makes your sword useless. Then there are some that might not have a lot of HP but do have a high agility and constitution, boosting their resistances.
All of this might contribute to the feeling you get about it being unbalanced. I personally don't think it is.

- Stuff. I believe the Larians tried to address the merchant not having enough gold or interesting items to buy in the latest patches, but I don't think its much of a success. They will never be able to turn BD into a game where item hunting is a great thing to do.

- Lack of gameworld polish. Yes, there are these things, As they are polish they don't ruin the game, but could distract you a lot. As to the monsters not being able to reach you. Sometimes it is intentional.

- Lack of stability. Not much to add, I could finish the game without anything stopping me.

- Voice quality. They might not be the best, but I didn't consider them to be bad either. to me they were just OK.

- Lack of "clues" on some quests. Somtimes the one who designed the quest has a sort of twisted mind. As to the example, the Tibar gives you a vermin curse scroll to curse her when she doesn't want to change him. It sounds pretty obvious to me.....
My opinion on the matter is that too many quests have been dumbed down in the process of the patches.

- Lack of "clues" on transitions from Acts. True, some warning might be usefull indeed

- Cheap deaths. Exploding chests. Hidden traps. As with monsters, traps do damage based on skills as well and the damage they do varies based on your protection. A fire trap only takes a lot of HP away when your fire resistance is not high enough. Your resistance is far more important than your level is.
That said, even with high resistances, some traps remain to be unbalanced and require a too large resistance to survive.

- Skills. I like the system, it allows me to vary. There are some useless skills and a few are bugged. It might use some polishing, but in general I like it.

For me there are several small gripes I have with the game. But none of them stopped me from playing it. I finished it in version 1.2. The biggest issue I have withthe game is that I don't like the way some quests were dumbed down and changes were made to the game that went beyond fixing bugs.


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Well I did know that the game had faults but bought it anyway. Sometimes it's faults are frustrating but only briefly.

The only thing I really have against the game is its AWFUL voiceacting. Bad voices + humour do NOT make it "ok". With games like KotOR out there, you'd think the RPG genre is evolving in this area.
Judging by BD though, we're still living in the stone age concerning the voicework.
Especially the Imps are quite bad and very annoying. Perhaps Larian ran out of money and decided to skimp on the voicework? That's the only thing I can think of for the horrible voiceacting.

But other then that (and the skill system which has its faults) the game is good. Then again, I knew about the faults and bought it anyway, so perhaps I'm more tolerant.

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Well opinions on both voices, those in the demo and those the Larians had redone for the release, varied from wonderful to horrible. Like just about everything that has been complained about and/or changed in the game, it is impossible to please everyone.

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Myrthos:
The biggest issue I have withthe game is that I don't like the way some quests were dumbed down and changes were made to the game that went beyond fixing bugs.


Fully agreed - I was very sad about this - and about the boosting up of BF traders, their loot/money/potions. In earlier versions I really had to take care of my ressources, not wade in everything. I'm not the gamer for combat difficulty, my fun is trying to reach my goal with few stuff. I don't understand the high skill lvls now for the BF traders. As I found out in 1.44 => this overkill in loot in-game is reduced now, very good! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

I loved some quests - why? Because I like the twisted way, how Bron/Fred tried to lure the gamer the wrong way - or how subtle some hints were. It was a match of brains. And this is how I play/take it => trying to creep into the story, as it was meant to and find out how to solve (or cry for help then, if I miss a link - thanks to Barnie, Raze Myrthos). Even Bron and Fredric helped me then.

I played the game from German version 1.00, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 - English version, started at 1.4 - then continued/finished with 1.43 and am currently replaying with 1.44. So, I'm hooked to the game, I guess.

Voice => well, I play in silence, to concentrate better. I take games like a book, so my "inner fantasy voice" is naturally all in British English. And I can enjoy the twisted humour better then, jot down notes.

Skill system => I like it.

Stability => no crashes in my last versions (except inability to leave BF in 1.42) - very few hanging cut scenes (most are solved now). Plot stoppers of earlier versions are gone completely IMO.

Graphics => oh, dear, I'm an oldfashioned 2D gamer. So, I'll leave judgement up to others.

Instant deaths => I still haven't figured out how to cope with some trapped chests and survive. But I'm not giving up!

Monsters => I'm even losing my Earth Elemental trauma - I think, I'm slowly getting a knack how to deal with most enemies. And I avoid a fight, if I can. This is the hardest part for me personally, finding out how to kill and survive - never was a good fighter, so I miss my tactical brains in this case.

My conclusion => the game has become easier. Still easy to die, still easy to increase my cussing vocabulary - but it's still a classic RPG IMO. Only difficult in one way: Life has become harder for my little cleptomaniac Kiyana. BD is not a fast food RPG-burger, needs time to get used to it, is a challenge => the way I like a game.

My only humble wish, if possible to implement into the game - WITHOUT breaking of other parts => the ability to choose, if I wish to kill an innocent creature or not in Act 2-4 (rats, crawlers, cats, boars, Tibars etc.) If this is too complicated, I withdraw this wish. Wouldn't want the game to get new bugs and I have managed so far with this.

Kiya

Last edited by kiya; 17/05/04 09:34 AM.
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I think the various patches seem to have dealt with most if not all of the bugs - and certainly all the really destructive ones.

My only remaining serious gripe about the game is the sheer lack of available skill points compared to the number you actually need. The system itself is a very interesting one, but I would bet at least half the available skills never see any action at all because players simply do not have the points to experiment. The ability to unlearn skills you no longer need is only a partial remedy to this, IMO.

The new system is more innovative than that used in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> but in actual practice less functional, IMO.

If it were truly a party based game (IE 4-6 characters) this system would be fine - but for two characters it doesn't quite work.

Beyond that though, I do like <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> a lot. Enough story to hold my attention, plenty of quests, and a fight system that is challenging without killing me every few seconds. All things I like.

The frequent declaration of war on the entire Rat/Tibar/Whatever population by accident (VERY easy to do as there are so darn many of them all moving around at speed) is a bit silly, but only mildly irritating.

As is the shift to the next Act with no warning you sometimes get. Easy to reload if it annoys that much. Personally, I was so intrigued by the story that I carried on going - which is a plus, really <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Death traps are par for the course in an RPG, and I never had any problem with those.

Just my opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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The only thing I really have against the game is its AWFUL voiceacting. Bad voices + humour do NOT make it "ok". With games like KotOR out there, you'd think the RPG genre is evolving in this area.
Judging by BD though, we're still living in the stone age concerning the voicework.
Especially the Imps are quite bad and very annoying. Perhaps Larian ran out of money and decided to skimp on the voicework? That's the only thing I can think of for the horrible voiceacting.


I enjoyed the imps on the whole. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BioWare's team for KotOR extended up to 70 staff. It's hard to know exactly how they account for those numbers but it's safe to assume they had...double? triple? more? the permanent staff that Larian had working on BD. I'm guessing but I assume the voice-over budgets were similarly different, although I don't know if that affected the final result.

I agree KotOR's voice acting was excellent...but it comes at a price. Big development costs require big sales which means publishers want to play it safe, developing for the mass market. As development costs increase, we're seeing less "hardcore" CRPGs.


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Well after playing more, I have seen many more flaws in the game. Despite the obvious fact that the battlefields actually get more boring as you progress, the game becomes super easy, even in tactical mode. If you are at all competent in creating a character that is. No wonder the skill system only lends itself towards letting you get a couple of skills down well. I guess the worst flaw at this time is the balancing. Couple that with the boredom of learning skills, then unlearning them for a different skill later, and you have one boring game. In Divine Divinity I was playing all night non-stop for multiple weekends. I can't get myself to play for more than one hour at a time with BD however...

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i guess then it's a good thing you "WON" your game! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I am hardly dissapointed...... i'm just gonna continue on from last nights adventure (up till 2:30am) .... skill system is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> good IMO....
it's really true......you can't please everybody..... but i'm pleased! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
and planning on taking more, than a few rounds out of this game. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Jurak; 17/05/04 03:41 PM.

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I quit playing in act 3. The game just wasn't getting fun at all, it was a meaningless slog through monsters (some fun to fight, most of them just were punching bags) interspersed with moronic quests. Really, the quests are just too much of the "Go fetch" or "Go kill" variety, and there's no mental stimulation to them whatsoever. It's impossible for me not to compare the game complexity with Diablo 2, with the lone exception that you also have to quest for the NPC that gives you quests, as opposed to talking to everybody in town to see what they want you to do.

I've grumped about the awful skills (1H/1H + shield), and there is no sign that Larian is going to correct those or balance the mana consumption of magic spells, so there's no real incentive for me to play beyond the story. And when you get to the end of act 2, all of your efforts to do nice things for the imps turns out to be a waste of time. <span class='standouttext'>Spoiler : </span><span class='spoiler'>Since Samuel kills every last one of them (except for Tax), why exactly did I do anything about their stupid plague? Why did I rescue that imp from the hole, or look for an imp's husband, or any of that crap? Oh, right, experience points. Huzzah! </span> I had to agree with the Deathknight about the plague -- "A plague? Wish I had thought of that! A plague would wipe out the annoying little buggers once and for all!" It's hard to having a sweeping, epic storyline when your hapless villagers are completely unsympathetic and you don't particularly care whether they live or die.

Without any fun to be had point-clicking on monsters or talking to moronic NPCs for their pointless quests, I'm playing other games that actually have some satisfactory playing experience to them.

As for DD2, I'm unsure if I'll be buying it. DD1 was a brilliant -- but flawed -- game; Larian's done little to fix their policy of releasing flawed gaming experiences, and the brilliance seems to have worn off.


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It got worse. Finally just uninstalled it.

Still yet more bugs, lack of polish and just flat-out crappy gameplay.

I had to redo a least two quests because someone got "stuck" and an event couldn't happen correctly. I managed to walk through walls. Had quests fail becausae my character was in a doorway they needed to get into. Characters in dialog whose voice changed and then changed back. Sad.

But I finally got to Act IV. I'm close, right? Now the game should be REALLY interesting right? With great characters and the best locations in the game. Right?

Uh, no. Fed-Ex quest after Fed-Ex quest in Levels 1 & 2 with a dungeon crawl to get there. Because the stairs don't work (lame, lame, lame). Ok...got to level 3. Exciting stuff now, right? Finally going to learn about RiftRunning! Woohoo!

No, instead we go on some of the most switch flipping, hacking the same monsters over and over and over again dungeons I've ever seen. Like they were created simply to just extend the game. Horrid and extremely boring.

That's it, had enough. Frankly, this game stinks. Not on the stink level of Lionheart or POR, but only just slightly above. And one level below the boring slugfest of TOEE. I can't think of one memorable moment - a good story-telling moment, quest, location, surprise or any other redeeming factor that makes BD anything but a substandard RPG. It's a shame, really after DD was so very well done.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but that's the way I feel.

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Jeesh, and I thought I was hard to please <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will have to admit that during my first time through the game I got really frustrated by a few things, mostly self-imposed by my fondness for DD, and the myriad of bugs in the initial release. There are still some things that I do not care for in the game (skill system, Insta-Deaths early in the game, lack of information about skills / charms / etc.), but the game now is stable (still a few problems that need to be fixed) and I am enjoying it much more the second time through.

IMHO, most of the criticisms that I read now are just personal preferences:

Voice acting? Who cares. If you want to hear really bad voice acting (and infantile dialogue)just load up Might & Magic IX.

Battlefields? you have a choice - use them or don't.

Quests and puzzles too hard / too easy? It can't be both, but complaints go both ways.

Personally I still like the feel of DD much better, but I will be playing this game for years to come.

The one thing that I think would have been enormous fun in this game is the option for TCP/IP support so you could replace the DK with another real life person. But then we can't have everything now can we?

I think there were times when I was too harsh in my criticism of BD, but now I see it as a great RPG that will give me many hours of fun in many future replays.

Think back to those long dry months when there was not a single decent RPG released. That is what I hated. I try to look for the fun in a game, and fun is very easy to find in BD.

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i dont see what the big deal about the voice acting is. The game isnt a serious game much like Warcraft 3. I thought the voice acting and script was hiallarious. The music was also great. I thought the game was good up until act 3. But its not how you start but how you finish and like most of the rpgs out today it just goes downhill. As a whole though it was worth playing. I hope they learn from their mistakes and making dd2.

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Let me make one small comment on the voice acting. Nearly everyone hated the voices in the demo, so Larian listend to our complaints and did the best they could in a VERY short space of time to improve them. Thank You Larians. Give them lots more time and money and sure, they could have done better, but you'd still be waiting and probably whining about the delay. They are doing their best and a LOT more than someone like Atari would. Learn to appreciate what you have, not what you don't!!


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I didn't see a problem with the voice acting, personally. Not every game is gonna be Red Alert 2 with a full cast of professional actors and actresses doing the voices, nor would I expect it to be. Larian is not a huge company and wouldn't have that kind of budget. Please remember that they are also releasing a number of different language versions, which is going to increase the cost even more, as I doubt the same voice actors are used in every case.

I certainly didn't feel any of it was bad enough to be off-putting.


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There's overall nothing wrong with the voices. One or 2 do annoy me at times...

There's one guy who does a lot of the smaller npcs likes guards and stuff and he sounds a little like Ringo Starr doing thomas the tank engine narration!!

The death knight VO just gets better and better as the game progresses.

Also the one of the few other bad voices (and acting) in the game is the mature woman who does a couple. (she was the witch locked up in the abbey at one stage).

Overall they're very good and fun, better than reading text most of the time.

I read text faster than the speaker, but if I like the voice I let them finish.


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