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Sorry if this has been said a thousand times, I'm new here!

Also, my understanding of alignment is somehwhat...basic, so I'll avoid talking about them here and instead focus on what I as an rpg player look for when roleplaying as what I understand to be evil (or, from my limited knowledge, may be chaotic neutral in dnd).

I've been playing early access for quite a while now. I'm on my third run, first two I did good/neutral paths and this time I'm doing an evil one).

I did this route mainly because I'm a sadistic creature hell-bent on killing everyone in his path. Just kidding. Sort of. See, my issue with the 'evil' decision here (which, specifically, is to attack the druid grove with the goblins), is that it only really works for chaotic evil characters who just want to see the world burn, or, don't really care and just want to see what happens if they say "fuck this group in particular lol". Maybe this was intentional, and in the full release the evil decisions later on will be different (and encompass other areas of the evil alignment). However, I think the evil choice in this situation could be improved if there were some sort of motive. When I'm roleplaying an evil character (and who knows, maybe I'm just neutral and bad at understanding alignments), I only care about myself and possibly my allies. To the point where I won't just turn my back on those in need because it's a waste of time, but specifically exploit and hurt them if it helps me. What I'm getting at here is that there isn't any sort of selfish motive for the evil path, it's just "fuck this group in particular" like I mentioned before. Perhaps the goblin leaders could promise answers about the absolute (they don't necessarily have to give them, just promise them), or maybe they just promise a powerful tool that Astarion or Lae'zel suggests has a better chance of helping with the parasite than Halsin.

But yeah, that's it.

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There's an issue with implementing evil since I feel like even an evil person would side with the tieflings and druids over the goblins, because evil is really just selfishness, and there's way more in it for you to kill the gobbos.

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Originally Posted by a mistake
Maybe this was intentional

I doubt Larian intentionally made the this Evil sub-path as poor as it is.

I also don't want to believe that their writers are simply and plainly bad.

As I said there, I rather hope that, simply, they released the EA version without having had time to properly finish/polish the writing for this sub-path. And that it's unfortunate that they had also encouraged us to go Evil in EA, attracting lots of attention to it. At least, I hope they didn't do so out of pride for how they wrote Evil, but rather wanted to gather enough feedback for this sub-path, since it will probably be the case that most players won't side with the goblins.


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I just started a evil Drow playthrough and I'm already having trouble to find the motivation for my character - why do I have to be understanding and furthcoming to Shadowheart while she is bitching at me? A Drow who already grew up thinking he is superior and is witnessing a half-elf failing at a door will let her belittle him and politely ask for her help? If you just stay neutral she goes on her own path, doesn't even try to convince you to work together. Astarion jumps at his throat and fails miserably - and I invite him to camp? Why the hell would anyone even neutral trust him? I get it that as a good character you might offer a stranded person help telling yourself it was a misunderstand, but as an evil one? Would you trust cannonfodder that tried to murder you? Both encounters only work if you a playing a character who thinks he needs them and is utterly manipulative and willing to let others talk down to him.

Even though to me evil isn't at all playing a murderhobbo (that's just the lowest and most boring form of evil) and I might understand the notion that 'those might be useful' - but again, the only reason not to ignore them or kill them is the knowledge that they are main npcs and on top of that you have to listen to them giving crap to you... so far the evil playthrough has been pure metagaming for me with no enjoyment, let's see how it pans out.

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I agree, that the current evil way to play through, is just stupid. I mean, I'm currently on my first playthrough with a good character, who sided with the Tiefling and druids and helped the Mykonids, but I don't know, what would motivate me to side with a creepy cult to kill a bunch of people, that were mostly nice to me.
Other than playing a murder hobo, which I'm not interested in.


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Oh great ... another one. -_-

If you use that small magnifying glass in top right corner and writhe there just the word "evil" ... you will get multiple dozen topics talking about just the same topic (and being wrong just the same, mostly).

Originally Posted by a mistake
When I'm roleplaying an evil character (and who knows, maybe I'm just neutral and bad at understanding alignments), I only care about myself and possibly my allies. To the point where I won't just turn my back on those in need because it's a waste of time, but specifically exploit and hurt them if it helps me.
Then you play Han Solo ... Han is exemplary true neutral character, pure selfish pragmatism incarnated ... with a tiny woice of conscience.

Originally Posted by a mistake
What I'm getting at here is that there isn't any sort of selfish motive for the evil path, it's just "fuck this group in particular" like I mentioned before.
Yeah no selfish motive ...
Except potentialy biger reward (if your dice roll sucess) ... potentialy more powerfull alies (goblin army vs. few dozens of poor refugees) ... option o infiltrate (or join, depend on your future plans) cult with guaranted major role (since all true souls are in leadership) ... and quite obvious conection to Goddess, whos magic (even if a bit darker) seem to allready saving your life from that ugly toothy tentacled slug in your head.
No motive at all ... sure. laugh

On the other hand we have few tieflings that promised us to "try to get together some reward, even if they dont have much" ... and except that they can offer us, what exactly ... their graditude, i gues? One gamble with beting on her own life.
Oh and ofc. pasively we get promised reward from druid: If we manage to free Halsin, we will be allowed to enter their vault, and we were told that if there is anyone who may be able to help us, its him (by his own people, who just wanted to kill us, and is willing to free us only if we promise that we will kill ourselves if something went wrong) ... that is ofcourse reward for different quest, and you can fail it while you complete helping tieflings ... but, lets not be pedant.

Originally Posted by a mistake
Perhaps the goblin leaders could promise answers about the absolute (they don't necessarily have to give them, just promise them), or maybe they just promise a powerful tool that Astarion or Lae'zel suggests has a better chance of helping with the parasite than Halsin.
That is actualy the main problem i have with all theese topics about "evil route" ... so many people demanding reward, so many people demanding more clear offering help ...
But that would ruin their characters. frown

For one, they presume that you allready are part of the Absolute cult (that is the only logical explanation of you having powers of true soul for them ... also its the only logiclal explanation for you being alowed to walk freely in their camp. :D) ... therefore logicaly, they cant offer you any answers about the absolute, since you are suppose to allready know as much as them.
Dror Ragzlin specificly become much more suspicious about you, if you show that you dont know much about this cult.

For two, there is no tool in seven realms that would be more effective in Lae'zel eyes, than purification protocol ... Lae'zel is fanatical zealot to Gith teachings. Therefore in her eyes, their way is allways the best and mostly the only posibility you have, and everything else is simple waste of time.

For three, they ofcourse cant offer you any parasite solution, since they dont know about parasites ... and yet, they ARE solution, as i allready told in kinda all the other topics about "evil route" most people here are missing the fact that very existence of this cult, prooves that control of the parasite, and living with it actualy is possible.
Or at least they are living proof that you have time ... since none of characters you have chance to speak with (including Omeluum) know how your alterned tadpole is working, so they all simply presume it should work as usualy ... that means that you should change *in time*, and since you are just watching multiple tadpoled characters *not changing* around here that logicaly means:
- either that they should change first, therefore until they start growing tentacles, you should be fine ...
- or that their goddess is protecting them somehow, therefore if you get her favour, you should be fine ...
The only characters who can potentialy know in what danger you are is Lae'zel and you, since you both have seen that mechanism on nautiloid, that was turning people as Lae'zel said: "change at the pull of a lever" ... but on the other side of that, there is no lever around here. :P

And last but certainly not least, you are potentialy missing lot of context, if you dont use tadpole powers ... but if you do, you should focus your atention on three details in particular:
1) You can use your powers only at those who are wearing mark of the Absolute.
2) In your dreams, you are promissed power beyond your imagination.
3) In your dreams, you are called true soul ...

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 26/12/20 10:41 AM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
I also don't want to believe that their writers are simply and plainly bad.

Agreed, they have some very strong writing ability and the evil decisions in DOS2 weren't half-bad. In Fane's case, if I remember correctly, one can choose to join the big bad god king and basically ensure the doom of everyone else for a chance at bringing the ancient people back. There are also several opportunities to help the church/magisters and while there isn't a direct reward (since they are technically hunting you, the player), it's a nice thing to have for people who may be roleplaying as someone who believes sourcerers are inherently dangerous. My point being, anyway, they at least have some idea of how evil paths are meant to be written. Also, considering they did in fact ask players to play the evil route for feedback, they are definitely keeping an eye out for suggestions.

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Originally Posted by biomag
A Drow who already grew up thinking he is superior and is witnessing a half-elf failing at a door will let her belittle him and politely ask for her help? If you just stay neutral she goes on her own path, doesn't even try to convince you to work together. Astarion jumps at his throat and fails miserably - and I invite him to camp? Why the hell would anyone even neutral trust him?

I actually didn't think of this (I recruited the companions based on what I already knew of their personalities). The only character I'd see myself wanted to be with in that situation is Lae'zel, since as evil characters we would both not be bothered by helping others and she shows that right away. I feel like if there was just a bit more variety in the dialogue during their intro scenes that could show off what personality/intent they have, it would be greatly improved. For example, Astarion could be watching a fisherman struggle against an one of the little brain things, cheering them both on enthusiastically but doing nothing to intervene. This shows off more of his "I don't give a shit, I just want to see what would happen" demeanor that he has during most side quests that don't involve him, and that way if I'm roleplaying as someone of similar alignment I could see that and think "finally, something *fun*," and get along with him almost immediately.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Yeah no selfish motive ...
Except potentialy biger reward (if your dice roll sucess) ... potentialy more powerfull alies (goblin army vs. few dozens of poor refugees) ... option o infiltrate (or join, depend on your future plans) cult with guaranted major role (since all true souls are in leadership) ... and quite obvious conection to Goddess, whos magic (even if a bit darker) seem to allready saving your life from that ugly toothy tentacled slug in your head.
No motive at all ... sure. laugh

How much of this is offered to you, and how much of it did you come up with as personal justification? I don't say that to deny the truth of those things, I just think that more of this should be offered up front. It wouldn't be hard to have Minthara promise these allies, answers, connections, etc. in her dialogue. She could even try to convince the main character that the tadpole is a good thing that gave them great power (Astarion would agree, he's very pro-exploit the parasite power).

But yeah, I guess what I mean by no motivation is that none if offered to the player. It's either a chance at great power and allies or a more guaranteed chance at removing the parasite.

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I doubt they'll change the evil plotline to less suicidal-homicidal, especially since I seem to recall Larian being happy with the narrative as it is in the IGN interview a couple of months ago, but maybe the evil route will turn out interesting anyways. There's also a possibility that choosing the evil route won't be as suicidal as it seems in the long run, but I think that would just be reward the player for acting like an idiot. Personally this means that, if I'm to do a evil playthrough, it will have to be a himbo playthrough. Playing as a denialist PC that sees the infection as a blessing and/or expression of love, and people fighting against it as deluded idiots, is not necessarily even that detached from the evils of everyday life.


The promise of being led to death is reason enough to follow.
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Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
I doubt they'll change the evil plotline to less suicidal-homicidal, especially since I seem to recall Larian being happy with the narrative as it is in the IGN interview a couple of months ago, but maybe the evil route will turn out interesting anyways. There's also a possibility that choosing the evil route won't be as suicidal as it seems in the long run, but I think that would just be reward the player for acting like an idiot. Personally this means that, if I'm to do a evil playthrough, it will have to be a himbo playthrough. Playing as a denialist PC that sees the infection as a blessing and/or expression of love, and people fighting against it as deluded idiots, is not necessarily even that detached from the evils of everyday life.


It's not suicidal at this stage, unless you're using a worm. It's just stupid.


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To me Evil is...
° the pursuit of things that are just cruel and dripping of ill will.
I find it astounding how the world "evil" sounds similar to "ill will" already.

It is basically being
° hostile
° contemptious
° antanogistic
without any provocation or logical reason, or any interest in the bigger picture of things.


Evil in itself is not acceptable. But an evil method that leads to a "good" outcome is acceptable, when no other option is available I think.
Choosing an evil path to achieve a certain outcome is something someone only does who has seen good & justice fail before.
^ Like the Paladin Anders who allied with Zariel for example. ^

And evil intentions based on the pursuit of "good will" are quasi halfway corrupted into something good already for me.


My Drow Mistress is evil. Because she holds ill will bound to a superiority complex without facing ill will herself.
If she is seeing the non-Drow "lesser Races" she does not care how much kindness they might show her.
For her, those humanoid races are simply inferior and their only redeemable quality is filling up the roles of slaves.

Even though more other Drow Women might show her more hostility and betrayal on the path.
There is nothing logical about her baseline beliefs and therefore she is evil.
And yeah I bind evil to being dumb and arrogant as well.
One more reason why I think the complete genocide of all Goblins is not evil, since they kinda deserve it and provoce myself into thinking so.



" Do good and you are worthy of being treated good. "
" Do evil and you are worthy of being treated evil. "

Hard to draw the line who is allowed to be the last evil of course. But sometimes, Evil can come with a good outcome in surprise.

I know all D/evils are supposed to be absolutely evil.
But are they really? Just because they want to be repaid from me for helping me?
Just because they want my soul, a thing I do not even have true control about?

If I reincarnate, this being "I" become is not "Me" anymore anyways. It will have a different personality and therefore have nothing more to do with me, right?
So who gives a sh**?
The low-class trash cannonfodder Devil my soul might become in the eternal bloodwar or whatever, it sounds like it won't be boring at least.

Sounds better to me as this "Kelemdor" Bastard, who might decide I get stuck in some kind of horrormovie wall for all eternity just the same. grin
And sorry God or not who gave this worthless mofo that right.
He just took it for himself at some point, right?
Naaaaaah man, I wont bow in fear of the gods. And this dude is not a good. He is more Demonic and Devilish as all others. ^^


So doing what the stupid Fae'run universe might consider evil, sounds like a valid solution for certain stuff.
As usual... just try to not get caught by the stupid powerful entitys of the same world, thinking might makes right - which is also not truly a legitimate logic.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
I doubt they'll change the evil plotline to less suicidal-homicidal, especially since I seem to recall Larian being happy with the narrative as it is in the IGN interview a couple of months ago, but maybe the evil route will turn out interesting anyways. There's also a possibility that choosing the evil route won't be as suicidal as it seems in the long run, but I think that would just be reward the player for acting like an idiot. Personally this means that, if I'm to do a evil playthrough, it will have to be a himbo playthrough. Playing as a denialist PC that sees the infection as a blessing and/or expression of love, and people fighting against it as deluded idiots, is not necessarily even that detached from the evils of everyday life.


It's not suicidal at this stage, unless you're using a worm. It's just stupid.

Well, even if you don't use the worm, opting out to kill potential allies and furthering the goals of a faction that is responsible for your predicament and repeatedly tries to kill you, seems to me more suicidal than just stupid behavior.


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Originally Posted by fylimar
I agree, that the current evil way to play through, is just stupid. I mean, I'm currently on my first playthrough with a good character, who sided with the Tiefling and druids and helped the Mykonids, but I don't know, what would motivate me to side with a creepy cult to kill a bunch of people, that were mostly nice to me.
Other than playing a murder hobo, which I'm not interested in.

100% yeah. There is no real motivation to help the
° Goblins
° Duergar
or even the
° Githyanki

All three groups make themself clear as to looking down on you in general.
They are all cowards thinking big of themself for attacking stray wanderers on the road.
All of them are bandits of sorts.

Siding with such fleeting groups of primitivity, that is not evil - that is just foolishness.

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Originally Posted by a mistake
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Yeah no selfish motive ...
Except potentialy biger reward (if your dice roll sucess) ... potentialy more powerfull alies (goblin army vs. few dozens of poor refugees) ... option o infiltrate (or join, depend on your future plans) cult with guaranted major role (since all true souls are in leadership) ... and quite obvious conection to Goddess, whos magic (even if a bit darker) seem to allready saving your life from that ugly toothy tentacled slug in your head.
No motive at all ... sure. laugh
How much of this is offered to you, and how much of it did you come up with as personal justification?
I rather call it observation, and deduction ... something my characters usualy do. O_o

Originally Posted by a mistake
It wouldn't be hard to have Minthara promise these allies, answers, connections, etc. in her dialogue. She could even try to convince the main character that the tadpole is a good thing that gave them great power (Astarion would agree, he's very pro-exploit the parasite power).
Maybe some alterned Minthara in another universe could ...
But not this one we have. :-/

Lets see it one by one:
- She have no reason to offer you alliance, bcs she presume you allready are allies ... proof: She threats you as her subject, but another agent of the Absolute.
- I dunno what answers you want, but if you mean what is the Absolute, that question is answered multiple times in whole goblin camp by multiple characters ...
- Connections ... once again, im not quite sure what conection you mean, but if you need her to tell you that there is connection between tadpole and Absolute, she cant bcs she dont know about the tadpole.
- For the same reason she cant even convince you that the tadpole is a good thing ... also Minthara really dont seem to me like convincive character, she give orders, and punish those who disobey.
- In her eyes they get all their power directly from the Absolute, and that is exactly what she say to you ... she even promises you her favour.

Originally Posted by a mistake
But yeah, I guess what I mean by no motivation is that none if offered to the player. It's either a chance at great power and allies or a more guaranteed chance at removing the parasite.
Yup ... remove, or exploit ... that is theme of this whole tadpole charade.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!

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