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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Threads that cannot avoid bringing real-life racism into discussions about a fantasy game usually end up being locked. This is a gaming forum, and we do not want it giving room to real-life political arguments.

Step carefully.

Real life and fictional works have always been heavily intertwined. There is a large body of work that exists on such issues.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/blackcamera.10.1.12

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt2005rgq

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/blackcamera.10.1.11

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5250/fronjwomestud.39.1.0112

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv193rr0q

If Larian is taking a stance that they are refusing to allow discussion of racism as it applies to their game, they're asking for a PR nightmare that I imagine would culminate in their rights to even making this game being pulled as Wizards of the Coast has worked hard to remove racism and other forms of oppression from Dungeons and Dragons itself and is likely covered under some sort of morality clause. Is Larian deciding to go down that wormhole?

Stop threatening Larian you terrorist scum!

Arne #748880 03/01/21 03:17 AM
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jstor, now there's a reminder of university. Also impressive you've decided to go for the jugular of a forum moderator that doesn't want a thread to devolve into a reddit/4chan thread. In regard to the OP, sounds like you want the Teifling models to look significantly different from the Cambion and for the drow to be one dimensional. Everyone thinks the Githyanki are alien since they're even more foreign than teiflings and the like, not to mention their supremist attitude. The singular Mind Flayer that escaped the overmind is not a lore shattering creature.

Last edited by FelLich; 03/01/21 03:22 AM.
Arne #748884 03/01/21 05:10 AM
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Lelol, more Racism madness!? GONNA JOIN! laugh


"Racism", or what is actually most often race hatred is something that will never be removed wether from our real world, or any fantasy world.

In fact fantasy worlds have a more HONEST APPROACH TO IT and the supremacist attitude of the race' within it.
Just get used to it, accept it already
... and stop spouting a bunch of BULLSHIT because Larian Studios is most probably dedicated to not CUCK AROUND in front of some totally WO~RTHLESS, HYPOCRITICAL SocialJusticeWarrior arguments! grin


I am not even saying anything bad or evil at all.
Just mentioning facts that are as natural as the air we breath.

World of Warcraft? -> It is World of RACEWARcraft.
Mainly the story about two big factions, under which different Races unite because they just currently have beef with a Race that has either joined the other big faction, or is more distrustful to one or several other Races in the other big faction.
These two factions are called "Horde & Alliance".
^
Just to mention the biggest example as a starter.


The Drow are super "Racist" :-D, they are in fact "Black Nazi Elves" which are convinced of their racial supremacy. =)

Fae'run's Orcs? Watch this video in the spoilers.
The examples are endless.



There is only one difference in between people in our world and that of fantasy world.
In fantasy world they are not shy, embarassed or HYPOCRITICAL about their racism.
And do not even get me started about how absolutely dehumanized, degraded and lowered I feel as a "Caucasian" in real life.


Trying to make Larian problems because of some foolish and irrational tantrum - good luck with that. I hope it will fail of course.
And I hope that LarianStudio will not row back on the authenticy of the "Racism" shown in Fae'run.

My avatar might also give you a hint though
but the thought to be stepped on by a hawt, sexy Drow Mistress in some kind of wicked magic filled black Drow leather and be called a lowly Human pig
Oink Oink > ( ^oo^)

not necessarily something I would dislike. xD


Hell yeah! Racist Drow are the best! XP

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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
But when you start turning everything that isn't human into vile monsters you start losing that ability to suspend disbelief unless you believe in the fantasy of racial supremacy in real life.

Elves, Protoss, angels are depicted as exceptionally good and honorable. Zerg, Orcs and Chuthulu Illithids are depicted as evil, vicious and actually supremacist.

The statement that all non-humans would be depicted as 'vile monsters' is simply not true.

Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
where different races are fundamentally different from one another in behavior.

Why would I play a game in which every species is exactly the same in biology and behavior? Why would I play a game in which there is no conflict? There would be nothing to learn, nothing to discuss?

You obviously do not realize that fantasy races are a mirror of humanity. Elves, Protoss and angels are the 'perfect' humans, the way we would like to be. Orcs are the evil, vicious humans, the way we would not like to be.

Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
The OP is upset because racism isn't ingrained into Faerun - which means that the actual game structure doesn't reflect racist values where different races are fundamentally different from one another in behavior.

If you were honestly interested in prejudice or intolerance, you would never complain about fantasy RPGs. Or burn Harry Potter books on Twitter :O Or complain about the depiction of Orcs in Lord of the Rings.

You simply desperately search for some kind of 'microaggression' to accuse random movies, games or books of being 'intolerant'. And your true aim is to force the developers to promote your preferred ideology.

In truth, you guys simply are not 'antiracist' at all. If your were, you would be out in the streets and protest against actually intolerant groups - starting, by the way, with actually dangerous people like Yusra Khogali, IS & Co.

Last edited by Arne; 06/01/21 02:43 PM.
Arne #749654 06/01/21 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Arne
Elves, Protoss, angels are depicted as exceptionally good and honorable. Zerg, Orcs and Chuthulu Illithids are depicted as evil, vicious and actually supremacist.

The statement that all non-humans would be depicted as 'vile monsters' is simply not true.

The OP is asking for non-humans, but who are social animals with a recent common ancestor with humans, to act completely different from humans and lack a basic morality. That is what this is in reference to - not angels or ghaik.

Originally Posted by Arne
Why would I play a game in which every species is exactly the same in biology and behavior? Why would I play a game in which there is no conflict? There would be nothing to learn, nothing to discuss?

You obviously do not realize that fantasy races are a mirror of humanity. Elves, Protoss and angels are the 'perfect' humans, the way we would like to be. Orcs are the evil, vicious humans, the way we would not like to be.

Not every species - Drow and Humans are the same species - you can have little half-humans, half drow. Social animals having the ability to be prosocial is just obvious - but that doesn't mean they all act in the exact same way or have the exact same biology - so that's a whole straw man right there. But, you could have them all be the same - just as you can have DnD sessions in Medieval England - because conflict should not have to be racial in nature. Robin Hood found plenty of conflict without elves or orcs - there were giant wars and class divisions.

Elves go back much further back than Tolkien and were not perfect little humans - they go back into Norse mythology and centuries afterward, and centuries before Tolkien, were known as pranksters.

https://www.livescience.com/39689-history-of-elves.html

Orcs were created as demons, not as mortal beings.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/orc

Originally Posted by Arne
If you were honestly interested in prejudice or intolerance, you would never complain about fantasy RPGs. Or burn Harry Potter books on Twitter :O Or complain about the depiction of Orcs in Lord of the Rings.

You simply desperately search for some kind of 'microaggression' to accuse random movies, games or books of being 'intolerant'. And your true aim is to force the developers to promote your preferred ideology.

In truth, you guys simply are not 'antiracist' at all. If your were, you would be out in the streets and protest against actually intolerant groups - starting, by the way, with actually dangerous people like Yusra Khogali, IS & Co.

I'm sorry. How do you know all the details of what I do day in and day out? One is hardly limited to either commenting on racism or attending mass demonstrations against racism - they aren't mutually exclusive events. In fact, the likelihood of doing one correlates with doing the other as well. Training the mind with the idea that "this is different from me therefore it must be evil" is very much a mindset that plays into creating systems of oppression, like racism. Also, if you were serious about opposing DAESH - which is known for religious, not racial, violence - then you would call it DAESH, not IS.

Furthermore, they currently are using my "ideology" on this matter - the OP, which as I look at it, is you, is complaining that they are using it and demanding that he be able to judge people based upon how they look than having to consider that a Drow might be helpful and not an enemy. I'm not trying to change how Larian treats things - you are. You are demanding they simplify things to where what something looks like tells you how to deal with it.

Arne #749669 06/01/21 07:29 PM
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It is pretty funny how a Drow MC doesn't get any hostility or second looks. Even forsaking their reputation, we're shown an area raided by them close to the grove and, of course, the leader of the goblin army is a drow. Grove mustn't be too hot on them, and again that's forsaking their reputation.

Makes me wonder if way back when drows weren't made a playable race for the Bhaalspawn because it'd stink too much. I'm playing the OGs right now and the games already are borderline silly in how everyone treats a half-orc walking around.

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Maybe unpopular opinion: Forgotten realms novels are kinda trash. BG franchise's 'liberties' are marked improvements that make the world more nuanced and interesting. Also it's a D&D tradition to use a setting as a base and make it your own. Think of Larian like your dungeon master, would you question them making a few changes to a setting as written to make an interesting campaign?

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
It is pretty funny how a Drow MC doesn't get any hostility or second looks. Even forsaking their reputation, we're shown an area raided by them close to the grove and, of course, the leader of the goblin army is a drow. Grove mustn't be too hot on them, and again that's forsaking their reputation.

Makes me wonder if way back when drows weren't made a playable race for the Bhaalspawn because it'd stink too much. I'm playing the OGs right now and the games already are borderline silly in how everyone treats a half-orc walking around.

That's the next point. It's simply killing suspense if I make a Drow character and every little halfling is treating me as his best friend, as if they know I'm some kind of Drizzt Do Urden. In fact, even Drizzt was ostracized because of the known supremacism and intolerance of the Drow.

If fifth Edition completely changed this definition of Drow, people will obviously get confused.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Originally Posted by Arne
Elves, Protoss, angels are depicted as exceptionally good and honorable. Zerg, Orcs and Chuthulu Illithids are depicted as evil, vicious and actually supremacist.

The statement that all non-humans would be depicted as 'vile monsters' is simply not true.

The OP is asking for non-humans, but who are social animals with a recent common ancestor with humans, to act completely different from humans and lack a basic morality. That is what this is in reference to - not angels or ghaik.

Angels, Elves, Protoss are acting completely different from humans, especially because of their eternal life, and have a different "morality" than humans. You simply try to focus on negative examples like Orcs or Drow, because you do not want to acknowledge that there are also Angels, Protoss, Elves in Fantasy RPGs, which are depicted acting in a different, but actually *better* way in a moral sense.

You do not want to have *any* differences in Fantasy RPGs. And because people will simply not play such games you don't focus on races depicted in a good light, but only on those depicted in a bad light because that's the only way you can argue that such differences might be "bad" and shouldn't exist.

Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
Elves go back much further back than Tolkien and were not perfect little humans - they go back into Norse mythology and centuries afterward, and centuries before Tolkien, were known as pranksters.

Which doesn't change the fact that Tolkien used them in exactly that manner. And which is one reason his books are so popular. Even the Drow, despite being supremacist and racist, are still being depicted as more powerful than the average human - just as evil, intolerant and racist.

You even admit it yourself: You wouldn't have any problem with the Drow, if they were just high Elves with a white skin color. Your only problem is that they have not only white hair - that's fine - but also a black skin color. And according to your highly dicriminatory world view something like the Drow may not exist.


Originally Posted by VeronicaTash
I'm sorry. How do you know all the details of what I do day in and day out? One is hardly limited to either commenting on racism or attending mass demonstrations against racism - they aren't mutually exclusive events.

So, how often in your entire life have you complained about fantasy RPGs like Baldurs Gate 3, Harry Potter books, the Orcs in Lord of the Rings? And how often were you out in the streets to protest against Yusra Khogali, Boko Haram, Mahathir Mohammed or IS?

In truth, you don't care about prejudice or intolerance at all. You only care, if you can blame Western Countries. In any other case, you accidentally 'didn't notice'.

Last edited by Arne; 10/01/21 01:32 PM.
Arne #750527 10/01/21 02:01 PM
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Quit the arguments about real-life racism or this thread gets locked and a few people will find themselves suspended.

Arne #750819 11/01/21 10:48 AM
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Ok, back to the actual topic of this thread:

The major problem seems to be that players of Baldur's Gate 1/2 will expect 3rd Edition lore, while 5 Edition apparently changed a lot concerning Drow and Tieflings. In particular:

(1) Players of Baldur's Gate 1/2 will be confused that their Drow/Tiefling character is not feared, hated or receives at least surprised reactions. I have seen a lot of other people in this forum point that out.
(2) They will expect human-like Tieflings like Hear'Dalis and expect them to be special, maybe even connected to planar travel etc.
(3) They will be surprised that the sinister looking Tieflings like Zelvor express fear of the much smaller and more harmless looking Goblins
(4) They might be surprised by the exchange between the two Tieflings and Lae'zel, especially the remark about her looking so alien, because, to a human player, they obviously are at least as alien
(5) They will be confused by the Cambion which mostly looks like the Tieflings, but suddenly is evil and powerful
(6) They might be surprised by the rushed introduction of a benign Illithid in the Underdark

Possible solutions:

(1) somehow give players of Baldur's Gate 1/2 some narrative introduction that the world has changed and Tieflings and Drow are now abundant and not feared or hated much
(2) try to make the Cambion and the Tieflings look more different from each other
(3) try to somehow resolve the issue that the Tieflings look sinister but act fearful and innocent
(4) maybe move the Illithid in the Underdark to a separate hideout, which the hobgoblin reveals to you first by telling you about it and then later on by seeking him out. Maybe also add a few sinister/funny remarks of the Illithid, for example that he feels "your brain looks tasty" or something wink

Arne #750892 11/01/21 06:19 PM
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Actually, some lore introduction might be good, a read out like Baldur's Gate 1 could help ingratiate older players and help people know exactly when and how this takes place. Something about how this is after Descent to Avernus and the various things that have changed in between AD&D2 and 5e.

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Originally Posted by Arne
Ok, back to the actual topic of this thread:

The major problem seems to be that players of Baldur's Gate 1/2 will expect 3rd Edition lore, while 5 Edition apparently changed a lot concerning Drow and Tieflings. In particular:

(1) Players of Baldur's Gate 1/2 will be confused that their Drow/Tiefling character is not feared, hated or receives at least surprised reactions. I have seen a lot of other people in this forum point that out.
(2) They will expect human-like Tieflings like Hear'Dalis and expect them to be special, maybe even connected to planar travel etc.
(3) They will be surprised that the sinister looking Tieflings like Zelvor express fear of the much smaller and more harmless looking Goblins
(4) They might be surprised by the exchange between the two Tieflings and Lae'zel, especially the remark about her looking so alien, because, to a human player, they obviously are at least as alien
(5) They will be confused by the Cambion which mostly looks like the Tieflings, but suddenly is evil and powerful
(6) They might be surprised by the rushed introduction of a benign Illithid in the Underdark

Possible solutions:

(1) somehow give players of Baldur's Gate 1/2 some narrative introduction that the world has changed and Tieflings and Drow are now abundant and not feared or hated much
(2) try to make the Cambion and the Tieflings look more different from each other
(3) try to somehow resolve the issue that the Tieflings look sinister but act fearful and innocent
(4) maybe move the Illithid in the Underdark to a separate hideout, which the hobgoblin reveals to you first by telling you about it and then later on by seeking him out. Maybe also add a few sinister/funny remarks of the Illithid, for example that he feels "your brain looks tasty" or something wink

I mostly agree.
Some things:
- BG1+2 was DnD 2E, why would anyone expect 3E lore in a 5E game that is intended to be the successor of a 2E game.
- I have no problem with the nice Illithid. Its in a mycoid colony and you have to convince his friend first to see him.

The problem is that WotC changes the world constantly. The look of the game is consistent with 5E, which is different than previous editions. This also includes how some races look or behave. I do not like that Tieflings look like devils, but they look exactly as they are described in the PHB.
It is normal that rules change over time, DnD is already several decades old. But it would be really great if they just update the rules and the graphics without changing the whole setting entirely. I am also confused what massive lore changes happened between editions.

DnD is so complex the the devs should not expect that most players know the whole setting. D:OS2 players and new players know nothing while BG2 veterans will be irritated.
How to get the player into the game without thowing a huge lore dump in his face when starting to play.
I mean, to understand the story you need to know:
- Basic knowledge about the different planes, so you understand that this is a multiverse with different creatures from different planes.
- This includes knowledge about the differences between races such as tiefling/cambion/fiend or aasimar/celestrial and probably some other things (we might get similar problems with dragonborn or genasi)
- The history of both Gith races and the illithids

In PST they solved the issue with a usual trick: The main char has amnesia. The player knows as much as the character, both are confused and its normal that they ask many questions, including stuff that every normal inhabitant of this world would know.
This does not work in BG3 because all chars have a long history in this world, so on top of the tadpole they still have to deal with the problems they already had before.

BG1+2 and Kingmaker ( I consider this the best BG2 successor ) did not have this problem. You have a normal fantasy setting, they did not introduce a battle between different creatures from different planes fighting each other in yet another plane in the intro. (gith and illithids fight on a space ship in hell)


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Arne #751083 12/01/21 12:36 PM
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@Arne I don't know if you remember or read the series by R.A. Salvatore which has been out for about 25 years or so. But Drizzt Do'urden was a drow that left the Undark because he was the opposite of most Drow. Where Drow were hated and despised because of who and what they were by the folks on the surface Drizzt set out to change that stereotype towards the Drow by helping ut the different races. Now there were trials and tribulations but a lot of the things for which he accomplished while living on the surface changed folks' perspective of the drow.

Now it's an interesting series of books which I highly reccomend

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Originally Posted by Madscientist
- BG1+2 was DnD 2E, why would anyone expect 3E lore in a 5E game that is intended to be the successor of a 2E game.

Mechanically, yeah, but era-wise, only BG1 was 2nd Ed. The reason they added Barbarian, Sorcerer, and Monk to the base classes in ToB was pressure from WotC to be more like the upcoming (or already released at that point?) 3rd Ed.


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Originally Posted by DragonMaster69
@Arne I don't know if you remember or read the series by R.A. Salvatore which has been out for about 25 years or so. But Drizzt Do'urden was a drow that left the Undark because he was the opposite of most Drow. Where Drow were hated and despised because of who and what they were by the folks on the surface Drizzt set out to change that stereotype towards the Drow by helping ut the different races. Now there were trials and tribulations but a lot of the things for which he accomplished while living on the surface changed folks' perspective of the drow.

Now it's an interesting series of books which I highly reccomend

Drizzt was in Baldur's Gate 2 and of course there were also Viconia and Solaufein.

In fact, one of the coolest pen & paper games I had was when I allowed someone to play a Drow and she had to constantly hide her face and use the other players to do the talking for her. And when someone found out, the party would receive negative reputation like in BG2.

The great thing was, when we once came into the Underdark, suddenly *she* was the one able to enter a Drow city and pass her friends off as her "slaves" grin We had a lot of fun that evening.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Madscientist
- BG1+2 was DnD 2E, why would anyone expect 3E lore in a 5E game that is intended to be the successor of a 2E game.

Mechanically, yeah, but era-wise, only BG1 was 2nd Ed. The reason they added Barbarian, Sorcerer, and Monk to the base classes in ToB was pressure from WotC to be more like the upcoming (or already released at that point?) 3rd Ed.


Your right I remember reading something about that back when it was released years ago.

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