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Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by booboo
I didn't even know you could eat food during combat wink

I didn’t either until I played my second time through when I started messing around. It never occurred to me such an absurd mechanic would be in place.

Yeah, I never even tried it myself, just heard about it and flat out refuse to do it since it's so stupid.

Correct but this is where they are looking to pander to a wider audience. I skip a number of Larian style rules and play the way Im comfortable with. I think stuff like the wyvern poisons are to bring some balance to tougher encounters with low level characters i.e Underdark ...

I dont disagree with the OP I just think that Larian will look to tweak the D&D rules where the most of the feedback comes in if it isnt either to expensive to implement, or outside of Larians belief on how certain stuff should be implemented in a video game - we are still in early days yet - much to come I think.

Last edited by Tarorn; 05/01/21 02:04 AM.
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Pander to a wider audience? Is there a large contingent of folks out there saying things like "You know, I really wasn't too interested in this game, but I turned right around when I heard that you could eat an entire wheel of cheese in the middle of a battle."?

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I think it is more like a lot of people want things to be always easy mode and don't want to have to do any tactical thinking in games nowadays. These are the people who would happily buy the game if food heals but would hate it if they had to actually think when to use healing spells or potions since these are more limited.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
Pander to a wider audience? Is there a large contingent of folks out there saying things like "You know, I really wasn't too interested in this game, but I turned right around when I heard that you could eat an entire wheel of cheese in the middle of a battle."?


Hahaha! Oh god, that had me laughing out loud. laugh

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Originally Posted by Zarna
I think it is more like a lot of people want things to be always easy mode and don't want to have to do any tactical thinking in games nowadays. These are the people who would happily buy the game if food heals but would hate it if they had to actually think when to use healing spells or potions since these are more limited.


I fully agree with you. There is one post on here that thinks we should start at Level 7 or 10 I think it was and I'm like why? True some fights take a little bit of thinking and planning out but they are not completely overpowered. Except for the Matriarch spiders that are around level 10 or 12 that continues to kick my ass' Or them Mephits in the swamp that keep multiplying like rabbits

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Yeah but many of the changes are not even making things "easier", for instance there is no Dodge action right now, something that would greatly improve survivability in some cases, and rogues' expertise and such would help a lot too (easy to implement aswell, right?). It's just weird and bad how many things that didn't need to be changed, have still been changed.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
Pander to a wider audience? Is there a large contingent of folks out there saying things like "You know, I really wasn't too interested in this game, but I turned right around when I heard that you could eat an entire wheel of cheese in the middle of a battle."?

some people want things easy.....some people want Ironman or permanent death mode...most want it somewhere inbetween....

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Originally Posted by Tarorn
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Pander to a wider audience? Is there a large contingent of folks out there saying things like "You know, I really wasn't too interested in this game, but I turned right around when I heard that you could eat an entire wheel of cheese in the middle of a battle."?

some people want things easy.....some people want Ironman or permanent death mode...most want it somewhere inbetween....

That's what difficulty settings are for. Make things easier/harder by decreasing the difficulty of challenges or adjusting the availability of useful items. Eating food to heal is silly at any difficulty and eating food to heal in the middle of battle is just ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Yeah but many of the changes are not even making things "easier", for instance there is no Dodge action right now, something that would greatly improve survivability in some cases, and rogues' expertise and such would help a lot too (easy to implement aswell, right?). It's just weird and bad how many things that didn't need to be changed, have still been changed.

Exactly dodge, ready attack, reactions . . . Personally I liked the Minotaur fight as it stands but lots of people complain about it but I suspect those complaints would diminish if "ready attack" were an option.

"Okay I know you are going to charge at me but I've got my spear at the ready so lets see how well your 'charge blindly on' strategy works now"

Edit: I forgot that delay didn't make it into 5th.

Last edited by KillerRabbit; 05/01/21 07:42 PM.
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Yeah Ready action seems to be implemented, more or less, in Solasta too... and Dodge would help the crap outta mages and squishies in lots of fights! And pleeease make reactions selectable like in Solasta!!!!

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Originally Posted by DragonMaster69
Originally Posted by Zarna
I think it is more like a lot of people want things to be always easy mode and don't want to have to do any tactical thinking in games nowadays. These are the people who would happily buy the game if food heals but would hate it if they had to actually think when to use healing spells or potions since these are more limited.


I fully agree with you. There is one post on here that thinks we should start at Level 7 or 10 I think it was and I'm like why? True some fights take a little bit of thinking and planning out but they are not completely overpowered. Except for the Matriarch spiders that are around level 10 or 12 that continues to kick my ass' Or them Mephits in the swamp that keep multiplying like rabbits

My opinion only:

This flies in the face of how the game is actually balanced. Sure, you can exploit the deficient AI and non-D&D elements to beat some of the worst offenders, but the fights are way over-tuned to the character levels. 5e uses a challenge rating system, that is enemies are assigned a challenge rating which reflects the level of a group of 4 it would take to make it a balanced fight. An ogre has a challenge rating (cr) of 2, so 1 ogre makes a balanced fight (some risk but character death isn't more likely than not) for 4 2nd level characters. 2 ogres is a cr 4 encounter and the 3 ogre encounter that you can hit at level 2 (I did) is a CR 6 or better because the 3rd ogre is more powerful than a standard ogre. That is worse than deadly, it simply will end in a total party kill without DM exploits. With ~60 hps, a +6 to hit and 2d8+4 damage per attack (ave 13) they will one hit kill a lot of players at 2nd level. Goblins are 1/4 cr, so at 2nd level 4-5 goblins are a medium(balanced fight), 6 are a hard fight, and anything 7 or over is a deadly fight for 2nd level characters. That isn't including goblin bosses or the like which makes things even more difficult. And yeah, sure you can use the broken AI and broken action economy to cheese the fights, but that isn't strategy and it really doesn't qualify as good tactics either because again it is relying on broken implementations (like shooting from a high spot then hiding and watching the AI stand around and yell at you while doing absolutely nothing). This isn't about easy mode, it's about facing a surmountable challenge. CR isn't the be all, end all of encounter dynamics, but it gives a good idea of how lethal the encounter can be particularly at lower levels. I've had a CR 2 encounter almost kill off an entire party of 4th level characters because of dice rolls; I'm pretty sure the module designer expected that fight to be a throw away encounter to introduce one of the minor villains but it nearly ended the campaign.

The minotaurs are another example of this, 2 cr 3 monsters is a deadly encounter to a party of 4 4th level characters. Now if the DM is handing out magic items like candy then it becomes a different story, but generally speaking a common character of 4th level with a +2 con bonus is going to have about 31 hps (I'm basing this off d8 hit dice because I think it is the most common) and likely 15-17 AC give or take. A minotaur has a +6 to hit so about a 50% chance of hitting AC 16. Using the great axe they deal an average of 17 damage per hit. They can also use reckless attack which gives them advantage and that is absolutely huge, at 50% probability to hit it gives a 25% increase or essentially a flat +5 and it drops off at the edges to an overall +3 on the dice roll. Well now that minotaur has a 75% chance to hit anyone with a 16 AC when it does reckless attack, and 70% for 17 AC, so it will hit most characters on its turn. With an average of 76 hit points they can afford to take a few hits in return because 2 hits will likely put the average character into death saves (34 damage, but 39 if it successfully charges as its first action). Can the characters reasonably expect to deal 158 damage before the minotaurs deal 124?

Readied actions would help a lot in burning down one of the minotaurs quickly if they characters can choose which minotaur they focus on. Dodge won't help because dodge is an action, so you give up most of your ability to do damage except through bonus actions (barring monks which can do it as a bonus action for 1 ki) and if the minotaur is recklessly attacking it simply negates the advantage (still huge, but for someone with an AC lower than 16 you're still more likely than not to get hit). Now when the level caps are lifted some of these fights will become easier if you encounter them at a higher level, but right now with level caps in play they are not even remotely fair to the player that doesn't abuse verticality and line of sight mechanics against the broken AI.

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Yeah, this is why I am hoping for a more faithful interpretation of the core ruleset, among other things. I am just hoping that happens smirk

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The minotaurs are actually worse than regular minotaurs because they have this new leaping ability which knocks characters prone where they land (so they are in effect higher than normal CR). Not sure if leaping in would invalidate the ready action, with melee at least - they are not simply charging but almost 'flying' in (!) I suspect implementing ready would have all sorts of edge cases (which may be harder to program?), but it only gets worse the further you stray from the actual rules. Just implementing RAW (as far as possible - which is much further than now) would make the things easier to balance - I really hope this all changes.

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Originally Posted by Khultak
Originally Posted by DragonMaster69
Originally Posted by Zarna
I think it is more like a lot of people want things to be always easy mode and don't want to have to do any tactical thinking in games nowadays. These are the people who would happily buy the game if food heals but would hate it if they had to actually think when to use healing spells or potions since these are more limited.


I fully agree with you. There is one post on here that thinks we should start at Level 7 or 10 I think it was and I'm like why? True some fights take a little bit of thinking and planning out but they are not completely overpowered. Except for the Matriarch spiders that are around level 10 or 12 that continues to kick my ass' Or them Mephits in the swamp that keep multiplying like rabbits

My opinion only:

This flies in the face of how the game is actually balanced. Sure, you can exploit the deficient AI and non-D&D elements to beat some of the worst offenders, but the fights are way over-tuned to the character levels. 5e uses a challenge rating system, that is enemies are assigned a challenge rating which reflects the level of a group of 4 it would take to make it a balanced fight. An ogre has a challenge rating (cr) of 2, so 1 ogre makes a balanced fight (some risk but character death isn't more likely than not) for 4 2nd level characters. 2 ogres is a cr 4 encounter and the 3 ogre encounter that you can hit at level 2 (I did) is a CR 6 or better because the 3rd ogre is more powerful than a standard ogre. That is worse than deadly, it simply will end in a total party kill without DM exploits. With ~60 hps, a +6 to hit and 2d8+4 damage per attack (ave 13) they will one hit kill a lot of players at 2nd level. Goblins are 1/4 cr, so at 2nd level 4-5 goblins are a medium(balanced fight), 6 are a hard fight, and anything 7 or over is a deadly fight for 2nd level characters. That isn't including goblin bosses or the like which makes things even more difficult. And yeah, sure you can use the broken AI and broken action economy to cheese the fights, but that isn't strategy and it really doesn't qualify as good tactics either because again it is relying on broken implementations (like shooting from a high spot then hiding and watching the AI stand around and yell at you while doing absolutely nothing). This isn't about easy mode, it's about facing a surmountable challenge. CR isn't the be all, end all of encounter dynamics, but it gives a good idea of how lethal the encounter can be particularly at lower levels. I've had a CR 2 encounter almost kill off an entire party of 4th level characters because of dice rolls; I'm pretty sure the module designer expected that fight to be a throw away encounter to introduce one of the minor villains but it nearly ended the campaign.

The minotaurs are another example of this, 2 cr 3 monsters is a deadly encounter to a party of 4 4th level characters. Now if the DM is handing out magic items like candy then it becomes a different story, but generally speaking a common character of 4th level with a +2 con bonus is going to have about 31 hps (I'm basing this off d8 hit dice because I think it is the most common) and likely 15-17 AC give or take. A minotaur has a +6 to hit so about a 50% chance of hitting AC 16. Using the great axe they deal an average of 17 damage per hit. They can also use reckless attack which gives them advantage and that is absolutely huge, at 50% probability to hit it gives a 25% increase or essentially a flat +5 and it drops off at the edges to an overall +3 on the dice roll. Well now that minotaur has a 75% chance to hit anyone with a 16 AC when it does reckless attack, and 70% for 17 AC, so it will hit most characters on its turn. With an average of 76 hit points they can afford to take a few hits in return because 2 hits will likely put the average character into death saves (34 damage, but 39 if it successfully charges as its first action). Can the characters reasonably expect to deal 158 damage before the minotaurs deal 124?

Readied actions would help a lot in burning down one of the minotaurs quickly if they characters can choose which minotaur they focus on. Dodge won't help because dodge is an action, so you give up most of your ability to do damage except through bonus actions (barring monks which can do it as a bonus action for 1 ki) and if the minotaur is recklessly attacking it simply negates the advantage (still huge, but for someone with an AC lower than 16 you're still more likely than not to get hit). Now when the level caps are lifted some of these fights will become easier if you encounter them at a higher level, but right now with level caps in play they are not even remotely fair to the player that doesn't abuse verticality and line of sight mechanics against the broken AI.


Yup. Very well put together argument. Couldn't agree more.

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Honestly, deviating from D&D's static slugfests is a GOOD thing. The surfaces, added mobility and increased bonus action options work well.

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Surfaces just screw everything up and make every combat a predictable mess of everything burning, everyone slipping on ice and barrels exploding.
Mobility that's added? Well, it doesn't really matter since every battle is pretty much centered around who can reach the high ground, so you can have all the mobiity in the world, but if you're playing a melee-centered character and you have to run up fifty stairs or huge hills every time goblin archers get advantage on you with the Larian ruleset, mobility wont cut it.
As for the bonus actions, they take away from classes that would otherwise be uniquely equipped with those abilities, like rogues.

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Yeah, and mobility is one of the things that makes the 5th ed rogue stand apart from other classes. Rogues can run into battle, sneak attack use a cunning action to retreat to safety. Or they can dash across the battlefield twice while everyone else stays in place.

And if 5th ed feels like a slugfest you need to use casters more often. 5th ed has lots of fascinating spells.

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I think 5th edition is insanely good, which is why I am perplexed one would muck around too much with it. smirk

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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Honestly, deviating from D&D's static slugfests is a GOOD thing. The surfaces, added mobility and increased bonus action options work well.

Based on this statement alone I really doubt you play 5e, or if you do it's an issue with your table.

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5e isn't exactly a slugfest, but some of what was added I appreciate. I do think surfaces mattering can be good and adds something to combat similar to a player asking "Can I target the ground below the orc with my ice spell so he slips?". But the bonus action options feel... off to me, especially shove. That should be an action if anything. And jump and disengage being bonus gimps some things future things right now, so while some extra options to bonus actions is cool I think that needs to be scaled back. Overall I think BG3 needs to get closer to a middle ground between adapting for a videogame and translating 5e.

Also they 100% need to get more to core on summons cause I don't want to lose my cute imp whenever I throw down a summoning power.

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