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Originally Posted by Ghost214
so this is kind of off - topic, but it sounds like you don't like weight limits per character either?
I find it annoying. I am putting up with it in BG2, because there are 18/00 strength items scattered everywhere, but yeah its a mess.
That being said I think limited ammo is more annoying

I hate dealing with crafting and weight limits to such a degree that in Skyrim I only play conjurer stealth archers and I never take any loot with me unless I can equip it right away.
I can summon my own bow and arrows, I barely if ever get hit because I'm striking from the shadows and if I find myself in the open I summon a couple of demons to distract the enemy while I pew pew them with my bow.
This way I don't have to deal with inventory management, weight limits, arrows etc. and I can focus on what this game was meant to be: exploration and killing monsters
I hate crafting/collecting/storing/repairing items, it's not fun.

Last edited by Bruh; 05/01/21 12:36 PM.
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It strikes me as pretty unfair to put this limitation on bow users when melee characters need only buy a sword once and be able to use it forever with no maintenance or limitations. Same with a wizard and buying a spell scroll. They now have that spell forever and, of it is a cantrip, can cast it as many times as they like.

Limited arrows just nerfs the physical ranged builds of the game by saying they can't actually use their primary weapon at all times. Alternatively, if there is enough ammo everywhere that they can use the weapon at all times, then the mechanic becomes pointless or just an extra punishment in the form of additional carry weight.

The only games where I like ammo management are survival games or franchises like Fallout where scavenging for ammo is a part of the world and franchise. And even then it can be really frustrating when you buy a bunch of 10mm bullets for your pistol and head out to fight something big just to get hit by a random deathclaw attack, blow all your 10mm ammo, and have to go back to hopefully buy more.

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it doesn't nerf anything- in pen and paper - alot of the same bonuses that you get for ranged attacks for rogue and ranger - you get for melee also, again - its just d&d - you don't run out of arrows often, but it makes you aware so you thoughtfully attack. This is a turn-based rpg so some of that strategy kind of goes with the territory, unlike a fallout, elder scrolls etc...

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i don't do much crafting in games either - but in most hardcore rpgs and Pen and paper - this stuff is kind of standard (weight limits, inventory management) while i'd like them to have items that are useful, (why can't ropes be used to climb or cross chasms?) - i agree that there are too many empty containers, too many hard to unlock or get to chests that contain an item like an apple or something, some inventory management is par for the course for what i hope ends up being a hardcore d&d game vs something more arcadey or casual. To each his own i guess.

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Originally Posted by Ghost214
it doesn't nerf anything- in pen and paper - alot of the same bonuses that you get for ranged attacks for rogue and ranger - you get for melee also, again - its just d&d - you don't run out of arrows often, but it makes you aware so you thoughtfully attack. This is a turn-based rpg so some of that strategy kind of goes with the territory, unlike a fallout, elder scrolls etc...

This just sounds like pointless admin. There are plenty of impactful decisions in BG3 fights, like what to spell to concentrate on, which targets to prioritize, etc.

Deciding whether or not to run to the nearest vendor to buy arrows has minimal impact on the game, just makes the player waste time doing so.

If there were situations where I couldn't do that, or ammo was expensive, then maybe this made sense. But as BG3 is now I don't see ammo management adding anything to gameplay, but rather detracting from it.

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Originally Posted by Ghost214
i don't do much crafting in games either - but in most hardcore rpgs and Pen and paper - this stuff is kind of standard (weight limits, inventory management) while i'd like them to have items that are useful, (why can't ropes be used to climb or cross chasms?) - i agree that there are too many empty containers, too many hard to unlock or get to chests that contain an item like an apple or something, some inventory management is par for the course for what i hope ends up being a hardcore d&d game vs something more arcadey or casual. To each his own i guess.

If you want to make the game hardcore, how about you do that by making combat harder? I mean I'm here for story and combat and not purse-management.
I mean I don't even care if they remove the weight limit, like I didn't care about much in F:NV or Skyrim either. I found ways to make it work, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and having unlimited ammo is not broken, it's just convenient and it's ok. It won't make the game better if I have to deal with ammo.

Dealing with ammo makes sense in a game like Mass Effect, or F:NV survival mode, because managing resources is kind of part of the game there.

The only acceptable way I see implementing this would be making arrows be like spells for spellcasters. When you go back to camp, your archer characters instead of memorizing spells, crafts arrows for the next day. I mean how realistic is it for any random merchant to just have arrows on hand? Not very much. How ralistic is it that the arrows the merchant sells are the length that is compatible with your bows? Not very much. So if you want limited ammo, make sure that you archers craft a number of arrows everyday. Except that would result in unlimited ammo because people would just rest until they have 2000 arrows. Or if you use less arrows then you craft? Well that means you never have to worry about it ever again.
Also what I mean by "crafting" is not something the player manually does Skyrim style (fuck that system). You just go to sleep and wake up with 100 arrows you crafted last night.
Really what kind of archer are you if you can't even make your own arrows? lol

Last edited by Bruh; 06/01/21 12:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ghost214
if everyone has limited arrows it does a couple of things: it helps from a strategic element where if you run out in the middle of a big fight, you either pull any unbroken from dead enemies or you go melee or magic. Enemies are limited also, which makes them switch tactics and can figure into your tactics also. It should be rare where someone has an unlimited quiver, and even then - maybe that's an item you can get from an enemy at high level. Again d&d and not Divinity so many of the special arrows shouldn't exist at all. And I don't need or want a survival game, didn't advocate for weapon sharpening or armor maintenance - I specifically said arrows. in addition, I don't think fast travel should exist outside of large towns, there could possibly be random encounters, exhaustion mechanics so that short rests and long rests have additional meaning, and short rest and long rest camps should happen where you are at the time like D&D....


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Originally Posted by Eugerome
There are plenty of impactful decisions in BG3 fights, like what to spell to concentrate on, which targets to prioritize, etc.

Really ? What food am I going to eat ? Where am I going to go for the high ground advantage ? How am I going to jump to avoid this AOO ?
Impactfull decision rolleyes

Last edited by Maximuuus; 06/01/21 02:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Eugerome
There are plenty of impactful decisions in BG3 fights, like what to spell to concentrate on, which targets to prioritize, etc.

Really ? What food am I going to eat ? Where am I going to go for the high ground advantage ? How am I going to jump to avoid this AOO ?
Impactfull decision rolleyes

Put it this way - these decisions actually let you win the fight. Checking your arrow count doesn't win you the fight, it just postpones the fight for X irl minutes until you get more arrows.

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Nerds do so love their pointless busywork minutia.

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I would like to see a combo approach. I don't want to have to craft or buy arrows (or oil weapons/repair armor), but I like the idea of the danger of running out in the middle of a fight, and I like the idea that Larian could throw a survival-type scenario at us.

What if an archer could equip a quiver that holds 20± arrows, and when you camp, it refills? Instead of just reading or praying or meditating, the animations could show armor/weapon maintenance and arrow crafting? Want more arrows? I could see sacrificing an equipment slot (amulet? cloak? off hand?) for the option to equip another quiver. Magical quivers could hold more arrows. Magical arrows could "take a slot" in your quiver.

Quivers could also be refilled while exploring (in boxes and on dead enemy archers), but you can only carry 20 per quiver at a time.

Of course in order for this to work, inventory management would need to be changed. No more free equips, or free steals from your allies smile.

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Originally Posted by Eugerome
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Eugerome
There are plenty of impactful decisions in BG3 fights, like what to spell to concentrate on, which targets to prioritize, etc.

Really ? What food am I going to eat ? Where am I going to go for the high ground advantage ? How am I going to jump to avoid this AOO ?
Impactfull decision rolleyes

Put it this way - these decisions actually let you win the fight. Checking your arrow count doesn't win you the fight, it just postpones the fight for X irl minutes until you get more arrows.

Or maybe you'll just have to change your strategy until you find arrows on dead bodies wink

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Eugerome
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Eugerome
There are plenty of impactful decisions in BG3 fights, like what to spell to concentrate on, which targets to prioritize, etc.

Really ? What food am I going to eat ? Where am I going to go for the high ground advantage ? How am I going to jump to avoid this AOO ?
Impactfull decision rolleyes

Put it this way - these decisions actually let you win the fight. Checking your arrow count doesn't win you the fight, it just postpones the fight for X irl minutes until you get more arrows.

Or maybe you'll just have to change your strategy until you find arrows on dead bodies wink

Like I said before, in both melee and ranged weapons, damage is inherent in the weapon - normal ammunition does not impact damage. Your method would force strategic and economic usage on ranged that do not exist on melee (special arrows which DO convey additional damage are in fact limited, by both availability and cost). If you want to force arrow economy strategically onto ranged, then I propose as an equivalent, you impose that old "favorite", weapon and armor breakage, and mandatory weapon and armor maintenance with rare and expensive oil and rags - couldn't clean your weapon after battle? Oops. Now it's broken and you get to fight bare-fisted, just like the archer who is out of arrows. Hell, let's toss in random body conditions too - that dinner you ate last night was "bad" and now you get to fight with diarrhea - -3 to attack and defense rolls!!

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Originally Posted by Anfindel
If you want to force arrow economy strategically onto ranged, then I propose as an equivalent, you impose that old "favorite", weapon and armor breakage, and mandatory weapon and armor maintenance with rare and expensive oil and rags - couldn't clean your weapon after battle? Oops. Now it's broken and you get to fight bare-fisted, just like the archer who is out of arrows. Hell, let's toss in random body conditions too - that dinner you ate last night was "bad" and now you get to fight with diarrhea - -3 to attack and defense rolls!!
An option for all of this would be awesome. smile

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I have never found ammo tracking to really give you the fun kind of strategic management, and rarely have I found weight mechanics to be interesting. The problem is that, for the most part, your management just means walking back to town more often. I could see it being interesting if it somehow made you make choices (the old XCOM games where inventory space creates an interesting loadout system, or in games where survival is an important mechanic, for example), but in RPGs it mostly just means your time in the game is even more padded out by walking back and forth.

If arrows were super limited maybe it'd make you make more choices, but in the old BG and D&D games it was more of just an obnoxious management task to make sure your archers had enough.

Last edited by 7TeenWriters; 07/01/21 11:53 PM.
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Just sounds like some one that likes to play mostly melee griping to me. Even in a dice and paper type dnd game , every DM i ever played with( i have been playing since late 1st edition, ad&d 2nd e, played 3.5 edition stopped before 4th and came back in 5th) has never evened cared about watching arrow economy, or for that matter weight economy like as in how much everyone is holding. A normal game for me usually a bag of holding is being sold for cheap or is found in early game, and no one is counting when you reach if at all the 500lbs limit of the bag of holding. Its just nit picking really.

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that's funny. I don't play mostly melee with my rogues, but this is the way we play, it makes it more interesting, have i run out of arrows alot? no. It has happened in a couple of long slog dungeons though. And we normally have bags of holding, but in the middle of a fight - If my quiver can only hold 15 arrows - The DM isn't normally gonna let me reach into the bag of holding.... As for "griping" no, not griping - again- making a suggestion based on D&D like everyone else here....I hope you don't have any proposals at all, lest they be called "nit-picky"

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says the guy in a D&D game forum

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Originally Posted by Ghost214
that's funny. I don't play mostly melee with my rogues, but this is the way we play, it makes it more interesting, have i run out of arrows alot? no. It has happened in a couple of long slog dungeons though. And we normally have bags of holding, but in the middle of a fight - If my quiver can only hold 15 arrows - The DM isn't normally gonna let me reach into the bag of holding.... As for "griping" no, not griping - again- making a suggestion based on D&D like everyone else here....I hope you don't have any proposals at all, lest they be called "nit-picky"

But have you had situations where running out of arrows has been interesting? Genuinely curious. That's never come up for me, it's just been another obnoxious thing to manage. The only times it has come up is realizing my arrows are running low and needing to slog back to town. It's done nothing for me ever except slow down the game, both in tabletop and video games. I'm down for "hard" options, and even for inventory management, but I rarely see inventory management or arrows implemented in a way that doesn't just make things slower and add literally nothing else.

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its not a "hard" option - when it has happened, I had to do the rest of the dungeon in kind of a hybrid state - I managed to pull 1 or two arrows out of enemies and save them for flying stuff but all in all - my sneak attacks and everything worked the same in melee so there was a lot of attacking and disengaging while my tank kept enemies in place. yeah it was interesting. Makes you have to actually have strategy and think a bit in a way that pure melee classes don't have to (or dare i say, get to) a lot of times. Honestly everyone I've seen that plays a rogue or ranger well goes outside of the basic "I'm just gonna shoot arrows the whole time" --- Ive had fights where i had to play "second tank" as a rogue because we were fighting two "boss" type characters at the same time (barbarian, rogue, and warlock - i think we had a cleric who was down at the time) the first guy went after the barbarian and when the other got in the warlocks face, i knew he was done unless i took him. Soooo - High Dex, uncanny dodge,cunning action, swashbuckling and sneak attacks ftw. and i was a mostly ranged rogue. part of the charm of D&D.....either way, I'm hoping we lean more d&d than Skyrim and fallout, like a lot of people keep bringing up - I like those games, but they aren't even close. I feel like for the people that want that style of play, play the divinity games and wait for the sequel for those. Its still turn-based, but more gamey, more "zany" maybe. definitely more arcadey. which is cool - but this needs to be D&d

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