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Yeah, in some cases few key roles to the right people can make more difference than hiring tons of employees.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Not sure if any of you have seen the trailers/gameplay for Black Myth: Wukong – but Game Science is only a small studio of 30 and it's one hell of an impressive looking game.



Feel free to steal my profile pic if you feel the same way. Let's show some solidarity.
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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
In defence of Larian, maybe they're not aiming for internal consistency ?

I mean, some writers made time a big pressure in the story, while some other devs programmed the camp cutscenes so that you need to rest frequently if you want to see them all. Some PR folks made a big thing out of verticality, but the devs still program mostly for a 2D game world. The speed of the enemy AI hasn't dramatically improved, but Patch 4 made the fight against the Druids during the Minthara's Attack involve even more numerous (and tankier) enemies. I can no longer list the Jump/Disengage action that would expose you to Opportunity Attacks, but I could easily go on. Point is, perhaps it's unfair to criticise them for lack of internal consistency if that is not what they're shooting for.
What? I mean, sure maybe Larian isn't aiming for consistency. But that doesn't mean it's unfair to criticize them for that or that lack of consistency is good.

Take the camp frequently vs story time-pressure example. These are completely contradictory gameplay motivations that don't work well together in BG3 the way they're implemented. Especially because there are in-game consequences for not resting, but there are absolutely no consequences (or even comment by a NPC!) on resting frequently.

They could work together though. If there was in-game explanation/motivation for why resting frequently was needed, and/or there were consequences for resting frequently and players had to balance pushing forward and missing X vs resting a lot and incurring Y, that could be interesting. But there isn't such a connection between these two gameplay styles, and so players just have to ignore the less relevant one - time pressure - or they'll strictly lose content. This is bad game design and deserves criticism regardless if it is intended by Larian.

As another analogy, take cantrip surfaces. Larian was specifically "aiming/shooting" for gameplay involving plenty cantrip-created surfaces, similar to DOS. Was is then unfair to criticize Larian for doing so?

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Point is, perhaps it's unfair to criticise them for lack of internal consistency if that is not what they're shooting for.
What? I mean, sure maybe Larian isn't aiming for consistency. But that doesn't mean it's unfair to criticize them for that or that lack of consistency is good.

I was being sarcastic.

In part, I was saying that given BG3's rather poor track record with internal consistency so far, we shouldn't be too surprised if a given mechanics (Opportunity Attack) has different names in different places.

In part, I've long been of the opinion that our goal when providing feedback should not be so much to tell the devs "I think you should aim for this rather than that, because I like my games better when they do this". Rather, it should be tell the devs "your vision, what you're trying to achieve is that, well, the way you're currently doing it fails at delivering that because reasons". At least that how I'd like my feedback to be.

With that in mind, I was thinking that it was maybe pointless to tell Larian "hey, your game isn't even consistent with itself", if this would lead Larian to reply (virtually, in their heads, since they don't reply to anything) "oh but internal consistency isn't remotely part of our vision. We simply don't care about consistency". Of course, we would then be able to then reply that

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
This is bad game design [...]

Although, I don't fully agree with you here. I think this is atrocious game design.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
I was being sarcastic.
Ah, my bad for missing that. IT's been a long day/week.

Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
In part, I was saying that given BG3's rather poor track record with internal consistency so far, we shouldn't be too surprised if a given mechanics (Opportunity Attack) has different names in different places.

In part, I've long been of the opinion that our goal when providing feedback should not be so much to tell the devs "I think you should aim for this rather than that, because I like my games better when they do this". Rather, it should be tell the devs "your vision, what you're trying to achieve is that, well, the way you're currently doing it fails at delivering that because reasons". At least that how I'd like my feedback to be.

With that in mind, I was thinking that it was maybe pointless to tell Larian "hey, your game isn't even consistent with itself", if this would lead Larian to reply (virtually, in their heads, since they don't reply to anything) "oh but internal consistency isn't remotely part of our vision. We simply don't care about consistency".
Interesting way of thinking about things. That's of course assuming we can accurately gauge what the devs actually are aiming for, which is...not necessarily straightforward for BG3 :P

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Van'tal
I would also support Tactical Adventures if someone backed them in going big.
Unfortunately, the specifically said they don't want to grow much bigger. Founder of the company already founded one successful studio that grew too big for him to actively work on games. TA very purpose was to be small enough to avoid that

Well they nailed combat, and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience.

I never participated in EA, so I never had a bad taste in my mouth (the growing pains).

I imagine that they went through their share of negative feedback on their road to completion.

Keeping this in mind, I am enjoying BG3 a lot more on my second play-through of EA than on my first.

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Originally Posted by Van'tal
I never participated in EA, so I never had a bad taste in my mouth (the growing pains).

I imagine that they went through their share of negative feedback on their road to completion.
I did, although I was pretty late to the party - I discovered and bought the game maybe 2-3 months before the release. The "taste" wasn't bad at all; of course there were some issues, but devs were pretty quick to address them. Also, their presence on their own forum was considerably larger than that of Larian's - despite the fact that their own preference was (and I believe, still is) Discord.

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Originally Posted by RutgerF
Originally Posted by Van'tal
I never participated in EA, so I never had a bad taste in my mouth (the growing pains).

I imagine that they went through their share of negative feedback on their road to completion.
I did, although I was pretty late to the party - I discovered and bought the game maybe 2-3 months before the release. The "taste" wasn't bad at all; of course there were some issues, but devs were pretty quick to address them. Also, their presence on their own forum was considerably larger than that of Larian's - despite the fact that their own preference was (and I believe, still is) Discord.

Right. SUCH a much better experience. I suggested things. People responded. It was relatively friendly and some things were implemented. Some not. They released updates relatively frequently and gave fairly regular news posts.

It was not like this. It was not the vacuum we're experiencing here.

But then, the fan base was much smaller. 18,000 BG3 posts at one point compared to 2-3,000 Solasta. Not quite the same. People weren't flooding Solasta with gazillions of posts hourly.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
It was not like this. It was not the vacuum we're experiencing here.

But then, the fan base was much smaller. 18,000 BG3 posts at one point compared to 2-3,000 Solasta. Not quite the same. People weren't flooding Solasta with gazillions of posts hourly.

Sure, BG3 has a lot more EA players and feedback. But Larian has a many more employees (and indirect-employees, and possibly volunteers).

And while processing the textual feedback, i.e. the players-to-Larian communication, takes more time when there's more feedback, giving updates on what's being worked on and what will not change, i.e. the Larian-to-players communication, does not.

Larian's policy of no-communication with players/the forums is a choice, not a technical limitation.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Originally Posted by GM4Him
It was not like this. It was not the vacuum we're experiencing here.

But then, the fan base was much smaller. 18,000 BG3 posts at one point compared to 2-3,000 Solasta. Not quite the same. People weren't flooding Solasta with gazillions of posts hourly.

Sure, BG3 has a lot more EA players and feedback. But Larian has a many more employees (and indirect-employees, and possibly volunteers).

And while processing the textual feedback, i.e. the players-to-Larian communication, takes more time when there's more feedback, giving updates on what's being worked on and what will not change, i.e. the Larian-to-players communication, does not.

Larian's policy of no-communication with players/the forums is a choice, not a technical limitation.

Sometimes keeping your mouth shut and your ears open is a good thing.

They have increased their staff to 400? They are certainly committed.

I do see improvements.


I feel inclined to appreciate their hard work and gauge their progress by the single means they seem to to be communicating the best with:

Updates

P.S. I see evidence that Larian wants to keep its promises, best not to say something you may wish to retract.
Perhaps they are not sure of some choices at this time.

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I support this too

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Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
I support this too

What do you support?

Reactions like Solasta?

Or what Van'tal said?

Or both?

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Poll time.

Reactions like Solasta.

That's 1 for me.

Post +1 if in favor of -1 if not. No reasons. There's been enough discussion. Just +1 or -1.

If you don't know Solasta Reactions, just don't reply.

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+0,5 ? laugh
I dunno ... i really like them mechanicaly, but it looks horrible (as everything in Solasta) ... so, there certainly is something to take, but not whole. :-/


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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-1

I much prefer a more cinematic flow to combat and pop-ups that freeze combat is unimmersive and therefore eeevil. Yes, even in a turn-based game. I imagine something like a slow-motion effect when reactions are applicable affording the player a short time window to decide whether to react - similar to the renegade/paragon reaction check (but in slow-mo) of Mass Effect would make for much better gameplay.

EDIT: The current rigid pre-set system is unacceptable though. If Larian decides to go with this lazy implementation, they should compensate the character with more reactions/reaction resources as you can't decide to use as situations occur and therefore likely to waste many reactions stupidly.

Last edited by Seraphael; 22/04/22 12:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
-1

I much prefer a more cinematic flow to combat and pop-ups that freeze combat is unimmersive and therefore eeevil. Yes, even in a turn-based game. I imagine something like a slow-motion effect when reactions are applicable affording the player a short time window to decide whether to react - similar to the renegade/paragon reaction check (but in slow-mo) of Mass Effect would make for much better gameplay.

EDIT: The current rigid pre-set system is unacceptable though. If Larian decides to go with this lazy implementation, they should compensate the character with more reactions/reaction resources as you can't decide to use as situations occur and therefore likely to waste many reactions stupidly.

Same here.

I don't really know how, but I'm not sure it would be good to have reactions "like in Solasta" in BG3.

Full control over our reactions "like in DnD" is what I'd like. But probably not with a massive popup hiding the screen and pausing the game everytime.

Even if the Solasta system would be 200% better than the terrible toggle system we have in BG3, I think something more dynamic would be better.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 22/04/22 02:07 PM.
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Again, the best solution is probably a system where you can set each reaction to: Off/Ask/On
Off: it won't ever trigger
Ask: you get a pop-up, timed with a slowdown or static until you click it. Exact implementation can vary
On: it triggers automatically when conditions are met

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Yeah. I retract my vote.

Upon playing Solasta again, the higher the level, the more popups appear. It's annoying that EVERY time I attack an enemy, Smite pops up with my Paladin. Every time I do Rage with my Barbarian, another popup appears. "Do you want to Frenzy?" Every time I cast a spell, my sorcerer gets a popup. "Do you want to use one of your Metamagic abilities?" EVERY... DANG... TIME.

I'm not sure what the solution should be, but the popups in Solasta are definitely getting more and more annoying as you level up.

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I don't think its elegant, but you have near total control - and I'm prepared to pay that price. I have just finished another run through of Solasta, so speaking from recent experience too. I don't want assumptions made on my behalf by some gaming system. That sacrifices my agency. Sure, some people won't want that. Give them the ability to set up some sort of defaults. I want *full* control.

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Originally Posted by booboo
I don't think its elegant, but you have near total control - and I'm prepared to pay that price. I have just finished another run through of Solasta, so speaking from recent experience too. I don't want assumptions made on my behalf by some gaming system. That sacrifices my agency. Sure, some people won't want that. Give them the ability to set up some sort of defaults. I want *full* control.
Same here.
I wrote recently about how reaction in the way Larian implemented turned out to be one of the worst aspects of playing Patch 7 (especially in Grymforge):


https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=94314&Number=728467#Post728467

Relevant quote:

Quote
The final boss in particular (that I have to admit I liked in principle, despise not being exactly the most standard "D&D-like experience" out there) highlights how terrible the current reaction system can be, not to mention it makes the absence of ready actions more annoying than ever.
Before finally dispatching said boss for good I experienced several cases where an autoattack/reaction triggered when I was trying to lure the golem in a specific direction, usually with consequent outcomes that forced me to a reload.

It's also worth noting that one downside of "new shiny UI" introduced in Patch 7 is that it makes circling between ALL your characters, selecting the "Passive" submenu and disabling their Attacks of Opportunity even more cumbersome than before.
And it's not even a "one and done" thing, since there are moments during the same battle where you DO want to take these juicy AoO, while in others you definitely don't, so it's a constant "cycling and switching toggles" that becomes annoying fairly quickly and makes me chuckle a bit when I think about the people (a minority, admittedly) that in the past months said "they would hate a Solasta-like reaction system with quick case-by-case confirmations because it would slow down the combat".

If the issue is just "making it look fancy because a rectangular pop-up is lame" then THAT is the issue Larian should address, but removing control from reactions is NOT the way to go.

Last edited by Tuco; 22/04/22 10:15 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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