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#753508 27/01/21 05:38 AM
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I grew up with BG I & II, NWN I & II, Diablo, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy and all that jazz. I played EQ, WoW, DDO, and a few others. I love the old games, but I also love the new games, like Dragon Age, God of War, Assassins Creed, etc. Needless to say I'm experienced with gaming and know the good and the bad. I'm also astounded that out of the blue I decided to look for BG3, thinking I was crazy for thinking a sequel would pop up (20yrs) later. I'm glad I did, and found out about DoS2 in the process which I'm enjoying thoroughly atm.

What's the point, I hear you asking. Well, its this archaic rest to reset system. It ruins immersion for a cRPG. It makes perfect sense for PnP, when you have many players, and are trying to share the time each person gets to act in battle, and role play, and balance things so you cant just spam power word kill, fireball, summon monster X (If you don't truly know why this one was powerful, you could eventually summon a Devil that could summon another one of itself, just trust me it gets ridiculous), etc. I understand wanting to be true to the original games, and I get that the game is based off of 5E. However, it needs to be adapted for cRPG. Please change the spell rest to reset system to a Cooldown system, for Baldur's Gate 3. Combine DoS Mechanics with 5E. This is why DDO failed, it was a great game, but it failed to adapt to the times. I'd like to see WotC get a successful rebirth in the cRPG industry, and I believe holding onto exact rulesets for PnP to cRPG is a huge mistake. Having to deal with your character being nerfed after 1 battle unless you rest, and/or having to go to bed every 30 mins is just bad. Lets be honest, end game im just going to spam craft scrolls of all the abilities I want to spam, just so I don't have to rest all the time. Then I'm still losing immersion, because at the begining of the game im grinding in a slog that is just archaic, and at the end, because im sick of it, im just carrying 999 fireball scrolls made at 9th level spellcasting, and not enjoying any combat strategy of the game, because its too much to deal with rest resets, after every combat, and the constant reloads, because oops i entered another battle and forgot to rest so I have the equivalent fighting capability of a lvl 1 barwench with Falselife lvl 12 cast on them.

I hope there's no contract with WotC that says you have to "stay true to the 5E game mechanics" to promote the PnP 5E D&D. If there is, please renegotiate this, and make them realize that sticking to this will hurt that side of the business not help it.

Thanks. #endrant

Last edited by Seiryu Suta; 27/01/21 05:41 AM.
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Very easy answer :
They have to keep the rest system, and... as in tabletop d&d (and former BG versions)... Larian can/should add potential random encounters during the rest

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How exactly would you have a cool down system in a game with turn based combat? Time is essentially frozen during the round, and each turn is like 6 seconds of real time.

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There clearly isn't a contract that they have to have DnD 5e rules in pure form. Larian has already implemented videogame elements...
Traditional DnD also does not let you long rest everywhere...
Big Picture: Larian is already on board with making changes to a PvP game for PvE...
Plot elements are also locked to long rest...

Essentially, I do agree combat is a little tepid right now. But I don't think DnD 5e is the issue and I don't think adorning a cooldown based system would solve anything. The problem is realistically elsewhere.

Originally Posted by DarkRob316
How exactly would you have a cool down system in a game with turn based combat? Time is essentially frozen during the round, and each turn is like 6 seconds of real time.
TBH FFIV-FFIX, XIV all have cool down based combat. ATB is essentially cool down based (derived from speed stat).
However franchises like Hearthstone, MtG Arena, SMT/Persona, and Fire Emblem have shown traditional turn-based combat to be more immersive than cool down-based.

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As I've discussed elsewhere, I think the rest mechanic is fine. I think that replacing this mechanic with cooldowns would make the game too different from the D&D ruleset.

I also think that camping is useful as an opportunity to spend time with your companions. I don't know if it's necessary to be able to free roam around the camp though.

What I'd prefer is if they take some inspiration from other games that have some good ideas for camping minigames.

In Expeditions: Viking you have campsites dotted around the world map, where you assign characters jobs such as cooking, hunting etc.


In Final Fantasy XV you need to find a campsite to start the camping minigame.


Pathfinder: Kingmaker has its own solution that allows you to camp almost anywhere.


These all seem to use similar ideas. Personally, I think EV does the best job of this, but I do like the immersiveness of the camping in FFXV. smile

As you can see, there have been several recent games using rest mechanics.

PS: Rationing skills is a core part of D&D for most classes

You should essentially be forced to ration your short rests (or eliminate short rests entirely) between campsites where you will be able to long rest. Or, maybe they could design it so there's no limit on short rests, but there's a cooldown and their effectiveness diminishes the more times you do it until having a long rest.

Additionally, if you're worried that having to rely on resting to recharge skills will motivate you to grind for scrolls so you can get away with having unlimited abilities, then to me that's a sign that Larian should make it impractical for you to grind for scrolls so you're not tempted.

I also think that Larian should remove the implication that long rests are a "bad thing". Currently you're discouraged from long rests due to the implication that it makes the tadpole grow stronger. This should be removed. I think it would be enough to just geographically limit your ability to long rest by saying you can only do it at designated campsites.

Finally, can I suggest that you update the thread subject to something more descriptive of your suggestion regarding rests/cooldowns?

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by DarkRob316
How exactly would you have a cool down system in a game with turn based combat? Time is essentially frozen during the round, and each turn is like 6 seconds of real time.
TBH FFIV-FFIX, XIV all have cool down based combat. ATB is essentially cool down based (derived from speed stat).
This isn't quite what cooldowns would mean. Final Fantasy games typically use a mana-based system for skills/spells.

Larian did skill/magic cooldowns previously in DOS2. This is another reason why we're unlikely to see the introduction of skill cooldowns in BG3. They're already being accused of making BG3 too similar to DOS2.



A cooldown in a turn-based game basically means that once you use a certain skill, you have to wait for an certain number of rounds to pass before you can use that same skill again.

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Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
I grew up with BG I & II, NWN I & II, Diablo, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy and all that jazz. I played EQ, WoW, DDO, and a few others. I love the old games, but I also love the new games, like Dragon Age, God of War, Assassins Creed, etc. Needless to say I'm experienced with gaming and know the good and the bad. I'm also astounded that out of the blue I decided to look for BG3, thinking I was crazy for thinking a sequel would pop up (20yrs) later. I'm glad I did, and found out about DoS2 in the process which I'm enjoying thoroughly atm.

What's the point, I hear you asking. Well, its this archaic rest to reset system. It ruins immersion for a cRPG. It makes perfect sense for PnP, when you have many players, and are trying to share the time each person gets to act in battle, and role play, and balance things so you cant just spam power word kill, fireball, summon monster X (If you don't truly know why this one was powerful, you could eventually summon a Devil that could summon another one of itself, just trust me it gets ridiculous), etc. I understand wanting to be true to the original games, and I get that the game is based off of 5E. However, it needs to be adapted for cRPG. Please change the spell rest to reset system to a Cooldown system, for Baldur's Gate 3. Combine DoS Mechanics with 5E. This is why DDO failed, it was a great game, but it failed to adapt to the times. I'd like to see WotC get a successful rebirth in the cRPG industry, and I believe holding onto exact rulesets for PnP to cRPG is a huge mistake. Having to deal with your character being nerfed after 1 battle unless you rest, and/or having to go to bed every 30 mins is just bad. Lets be honest, end game im just going to spam craft scrolls of all the abilities I want to spam, just so I don't have to rest all the time. Then I'm still losing immersion, because at the begining of the game im grinding in a slog that is just archaic, and at the end, because im sick of it, im just carrying 999 fireball scrolls made at 9th level spellcasting, and not enjoying any combat strategy of the game, because its too much to deal with rest resets, after every combat, and the constant reloads, because oops i entered another battle and forgot to rest so I have the equivalent fighting capability of a lvl 1 barwench with Falselife lvl 12 cast on them.

I hope there's no contract with WotC that says you have to "stay true to the 5E game mechanics" to promote the PnP 5E D&D. If there is, please renegotiate this, and make them realize that sticking to this will hurt that side of the business not help it.

Thanks. #endrant

I think saying that a rest mechanic is archaic and outdated is simply not true. It just appeals to a different mindset and style of play than you prefer.

To break a lance for rest mechanics, I love it when in a game after a long day of traveling through the wild I am able to call it a day, look for some safe haven to set up a camp and close in for the night. Share stories of past adventures around the fireplace and get to know your companions better. It takes out some speed and gives a place for replenishment.

In Sykrim for example there was a mod were you can do exactly that - you have a back bag and can set up a camp and a fireplace. It was a fairly popular one.

I understand completely that many people want more action and run around in the game without the need to stop and just have fight after fight. But I am not that type of gamer, and I would find it horrible to have a game that is supposed to be an epic journey and adventure without such elements of peace and calm.

Just think of Lord of the Rings, imagine Frodo and Sam would be able to go from the Shire to Mordor in a couple hours, or without the need to rest.
Or Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli who manage a great feat of strength and endurance when they follow the troops of Saruman who kidnapped Pippin and Merry.

Such stories translate to a game only - at least for me - when you have a believable world set up, that allows you to take time out of your day and rest.

The whole trope of big adventure just doesn't work that good, when I run around in bright day light all the time and do just fight after fight. Besides, this was one of the things I disliked the most in DOS2 wink

So, tl;dr: rest mechanics or not appeal to two different mindsets/play styles. Both are equally good/valuable, just different.

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The current resting system is far from perfect, but I think switching to a cool down system would make it worse, not better.
I wish WotC has actually told them to "stay true to the 5E game mechanics".
My suggestion would be that you either have to set up a camp at your current location ( with the danger of being attacked )or you have to walk back to the camp ( or a fast travel point ) if you want to rest.
I wish the camp was a normal place in the world, not a place where you can only get via spontanous teleportation.

I play pathfinder Kingmaker at the moment. So far I think it is the best spiritual successor of BG2.
We need large dungeons and better exploration in BG3.
BG3 is very good in many things, but it feels like a theme park where everything is cramped together. There are several places that are made as a stage for an epic encounter. But it also means there are several different areas very close to each other. So the goblins have problems to find the druid grove when it takes only a minute to walk there?


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Originally Posted by Madscientist
The current resting system is far from perfect, but I think switching to a cool down system would make it worse, not better.
I wish WotC has actually told them to "stay true to the 5E game mechanics".
My suggestion would be that you either have to set up a camp at your current location ( with the danger of being attacked )or you have to walk back to the camp ( or a fast travel point ) if you want to rest.
I wish the camp was a normal place in the world, not a place where you can only get via spontanous teleportation.

I play pathfinder Kingmaker at the moment. So far I think it is the best spiritual successor of BG2.
We need large dungeons and better exploration in BG3.
BG3 is very good in many things, but it feels like a theme park where everything is cramped together. There are several places that are made as a stage for an epic encounter. But it also means there are several different areas very close to each other. So the goblins have problems to find the druid grove when it takes only a minute to walk there?

Yes this +1

It felt so weird in DOS2 that even the biggest area (Reaper's Coast) felt so cramped and ... compact.

In BG1 when you have to save Dynaheir (or go kill her), you have to travel across several maps to find a way to the Gnoll Fortress. That felt like a journey and an adventure!

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Originally Posted by Lunar Dante
Very easy answer :
They have to keep the rest system, and... as in tabletop d&d (and former BG versions)... Larian can/should add potential random encounters during the rest

Not as easy as all that. Firstly it means designing a large number of interesting random encounters for the rest, just throwing random monsters in the way the OG BG games did is a bit dull.

More importantly though it actually exacerbates the biggest problem resting has which is the 5 minute day. Every time you rest you will want to make sure you have resources available to deal with a random encounter. This means wizards can't just cast their best spells with impunity they have to leave at least something back but it also means groups are even more strongly incentivised to rest after every fight, if they wait till they are low on resources they may not be able to get past those random encounters.

The solution is to limit resting somehow. This takes a fair bit of finesse to make sure it doesn't feel silly and the player isn't locked into no win situations or disincentivised completing side quests. But I can't think of any other way around it.

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I think the simplest and best way to approach the rest issue is simply to attatch long rests to having food. Make it so that you either need to have food in your inventory, or be at some kind of home base or inn before you can long rest. That's what Pathfinder: Kingmaker did and that worked without issue. This lets them make short rests more useful and makes it so (provided they limit food more) players can't just spam long rests whenever they feel like it while not making it entirely punishing to not have food since you'll still be able to fall back to camp, it just requires you retraversing the map.

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Originally Posted by daMichi
Originally Posted by Madscientist
The current resting system is far from perfect, but I think switching to a cool down system would make it worse, not better.
I wish WotC has actually told them to "stay true to the 5E game mechanics".
My suggestion would be that you either have to set up a camp at your current location ( with the danger of being attacked )or you have to walk back to the camp ( or a fast travel point ) if you want to rest.
I wish the camp was a normal place in the world, not a place where you can only get via spontanous teleportation.

I play pathfinder Kingmaker at the moment. So far I think it is the best spiritual successor of BG2.
We need large dungeons and better exploration in BG3.
BG3 is very good in many things, but it feels like a theme park where everything is cramped together. There are several places that are made as a stage for an epic encounter. But it also means there are several different areas very close to each other. So the goblins have problems to find the druid grove when it takes only a minute to walk there?

Yes this +1

It felt so weird in DOS2 that even the biggest area (Reaper's Coast) felt so cramped and ... compact.

In BG1 when you have to save Dynaheir (or go kill her), you have to travel across several maps to find a way to the Gnoll Fortress. That felt like a journey and an adventure!

Great, +1 too

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For the point of discussion:

'Rest Interruption' encounters are (or should be) always balanced around being a fair to moderate challenge, but not a dangerous or lethal one, to a party that is tapped out of expendable resources. Furthermore, they're designed with the knowledge that the party can feel free to use up all of their remaining resources with impunity on that encounter, because they will definitely get a full refresh after it. The reality is that when they are designed in this way (as most video games that have implemented rest interruption encounters have done), it doesn't end up encouraging people to hold back 'just in case' resources, or to rest after every fight at all - neither effect actually tends to end up ocurring, at least not beause of random encounter threats. If Larian does decide to implement an encounter system that can interrupt your rest attempts, or your evening camps, then I would like to have faith that they would also generally adopt this fairly standard principle for their design of them.

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At what point will people admit they just don't want to play 5e? Lol.

I don't like kingmaker for a long list of reasons, but in the context of just resting I think it will never work for bg3. The whole purpose for it was to enforce the passage of time. You can't do that without a day and night cycle. Not to mention time limits, storage capacity limits, and introducing a cooking meal system. Might as well straight copy paste pathfinder systems and drop 5e.

My point is taking singular parts from a system is more complex than people make it seem. At a point it is not 5e anymore and at the same time some people are harassing the devs to make bg3 MORE like 5e. Lmao.

I mean you are free to do whatever you want. I just wanted to point that out.

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Originally Posted by Aishaddai
At what point will people admit they just don't want to play 5e? Lol.

I don't like kingmaker for a long list of reasons, but in the context of just resting I think it will never work for bg3. The whole purpose for it was to enforce the passage of time. You can't do that without a day and night cycle. Not to mention time limits, storage capacity limits, and introducing a cooking meal system. Might as well straight copy paste pathfinder systems and drop 5e.

My point is taking singular parts from a system is more complex than people make it seem. At a point it is not 5e anymore and at the same time some people are harassing the devs to make bg3 MORE like 5e. Lmao.

I mean you are free to do whatever you want. I just wanted to point that out.

I don't get it why it should contradict 5e when I want a day/night cycle, weather effects and a meaningful resting system?
It's the other way round. When you don't have the passing of time (come on, what is implemented in BG 3 as "passing of time" is just very poorly done), how can you apply the rules of 5e correctly?

That people (humans, dwarves, elves, tieflings, etc.) have to eat and drink or starve to death is part of DnD.
That you don't have to use a mechanic for it, is something completely different.

So how you think when people say you should have provisions/food when making camp does that in any way contradict DnD 5e?

I don't see why BG3 would be a worse game if we had a day/night cycle? And after 24 hours of running around Shadowheart tells you she is tired? Then you make a small campfire, click on it and then you talk to your companions the same way as you do now when you go to your "magic camp" that is Ao knows where?

Please elaborate, because I don't understand your point.
And yes, I definitely want more 5e in BG3

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Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
Please change the spell rest to reset system to a Cooldown system, for Baldur's Gate 3.

Larian has made a few too many tweaks to 5e rules, sometimes for no obvious good reason; please don't request more. There are several ways to address your concerns without changing a fundamental 5e mechanic. The general issue is that players have figured out that camping costs nothing but player time and not much of that. There are warnings about time passing, but there is no noticeable real penalty. If there were, the mechanic could stay as-is, or something quite close.

Originally Posted by Seiryu Suta
Having to deal with your character being nerfed after 1 battle unless you rest, and/or having to go to bed every 30 mins is just bad... oops i entered another battle and forgot to rest so I have the equivalent fighting capability of a lvl 1 barwench with Falselife lvl 12 cast on them.

Why are you using all of your spells and other resources every battle? Most battles are quite survivable and even winnable (no PC or desirable NPC death) without spending spells and abilities like crazy. Short rest recovers some resources for some classes and will take care of most battle damage. Consumables, which are quite common in the game, will take care of a lot of the rest, and scrolls can be used instead of spells. As has been pointed out for many other topics, just because you have the option to abuse a mechanic doesn't mean you should - challenge yourself to win battles with mechanisms other than 'spam highest attack'. Also, just because you have the option to abuse a mechanic doesn't mean you should ask Larian to close out the option for everyone else.

There's a general problem where game companies want to appeal to broad audiences and, since people don't like getting creamed unless they are dedicated min/maxers who understand the mechanics, games that want wide audiences have to be designed at less than 'mix/maxer only' difficulty levels. But that leaves min/maxers complaining about exploitable mechanics and things being too easy.

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Originally Posted by Aishaddai
At what point will people admit they just don't want to play 5e? Lol.

I don't like kingmaker for a long list of reasons, but in the context of just resting I think it will never work for bg3. The whole purpose for it was to enforce the passage of time. You can't do that without a day and night cycle. Not to mention time limits, storage capacity limits, and introducing a cooking meal system. Might as well straight copy paste pathfinder systems and drop 5e.

My point is taking singular parts from a system is more complex than people make it seem. At a point it is not 5e anymore and at the same time some people are harassing the devs to make bg3 MORE like 5e. Lmao.

I mean you are free to do whatever you want. I just wanted to point that out.

There are a lot of issues I have with the game that making it more like 5e would fix. I really am enjoying Solasta which also uses supplies as a way to limit long rests and overall is way more loyal to the 5e system. And I actually like it more than BG3 for that reason among others. I just can't figure out a better way to handle long and short rests at this point, because the system for resting that they currently have just doesn't work and definitely needs to be changed.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I think the simplest and best way to approach the rest issue is simply to attatch long rests to having food. Make it so that you either need to have food in your inventory, or be at some kind of home base or inn before you can long rest. That's what Pathfinder: Kingmaker did and that worked without issue. This lets them make short rests more useful and makes it so (provided they limit food more) players can't just spam long rests whenever they feel like it while not making it entirely punishing to not have food since you'll still be able to fall back to camp, it just requires you retraversing the map.

I'd actually like to see short rests tied to food supply rather than per 2 day as well. Would favor short rest resource characters considerably, but switching some of the class resources (Arcane Recovery and Sorcery Points, fi) to short rest reup would help with that.

To the larger thread point? I definitely don't think Larian should be constrained into making a "5E simulator" game but cooldown mechanics are a bridge too far. At that point you're not playing DnD anymore. Also I think "breaking immersion" has become an incredibly overused shorthand in terms of game criticism. Immersion isn't a boolean, it's a flow. It's certainly something the designers are worrying about, but pointing towards a particular game element/abstraction and saying it destroys the entirety of immersion isn't a useful way of applying the concept. It reminds me of my father saying he couldn't enjoy a film because it wasn't "realistic enough". "They can't possibly be in Russia son, those trees don't grow there!"

I personally find nonmagical cooldown mechanics to be equally "immersion breaking." If my fighter just swung his sword in a massive arc, why can't he just do that again? Because he has to wait a minute in between cleaves? Doesn't sit well in my head. But that didn't keep me from enjoying Dragon Age: Inquisition, because I realized it was an abstraction meant to apply game balance.

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Been a while but doesn't Neverwinter online do cooldowns?

Edit* I looked it up they do for encounters and a build up resource for dailies I think. I would say no, I don't agree with this change.

BTW ddo came out roughly around the same time another game came out, guess what it was...World of Warcraft. DDO always had there dedicated fan base, why its still around, but its no WoW.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by DarkRob316
How exactly would you have a cool down system in a game with turn based combat? Time is essentially frozen during the round, and each turn is like 6 seconds of real time.
TBH FFIV-FFIX, XIV all have cool down based combat. ATB is essentially cool down based (derived from speed stat).
This isn't quite what cooldowns would mean. Final Fantasy games typically use a mana-based system for skills/spells.

Larian did skill/magic cooldowns previously in DOS2. This is another reason why we're unlikely to see the introduction of skill cooldowns in BG3. They're already being accused of making BG3 too similar to DOS2.



A cooldown in a turn-based game basically means that once you use a certain skill, you have to wait for an certain number of rounds to pass before you can use that same skill again.
Apolologies for not explaining my thoughts in detail with my prior post. Below I'll be talking about cooldowns in abstract. grin

Where cooldowns get applied is a choice that is not absolute and games don't need to have rounds to have cooldowns. Cooldowns are a mechanic that gates the player. Other common mechanics that gate the player are mana, health, money, etc. Each of these are a cost and cooldowns are simply the expense of time. Anything where the player is asked to spend X time could be referred to as a cooldown. Where cooldowns are used makes a big difference. Whether it's applied to spells or the whole turn, the games feel and play very differently from each other.

Examples of Gating in Videogames
In MOBAs (Dota 2 and League of Legends) cooldowns are used in real time, measured in seconds. You can purchase items (money) to reduce your cooldown by X%. In both MOBAs, spells have an associated cooldown cost and mana cost.
In Final Fantasy (IV-IX) ATB controls when each character's turn goes on cooldown and the speed stat shortens the cooldown. (Spells share a cooldown with Item, change row, etc.)
In Divinity 2 cooldowns move each turn instead of real time and spells don't have a mana cost (although some spells require the player to spend source).
In Skyrim, some spells have lengthy cooldowns. The player has the choice to move time forward to wait out a cooldown faster.


Getting back to the topic at hand, replacing rest with cooldowns is like asking to have an apple instead of an orange. Sure they're both fruit. But the taste, texture, and experience are all different. The rest mechanic and cooldowns both put a premium on when certain abilities can be used and it's good to discuss what would actually have a better feel and experience for BG3. How should the spells be gated from the player?

Well spell slots are the resource at hand and resting replenishes the spell slots. If these just go on cooldown I wouldn't have to click a button to rest, but wait out X seconds/minutes. It's kind of nice just being able to push a button. I also worry about combat becoming a grind, so taking a long rest to talk with the party can be a nice reprieve.

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