Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Getting with the times.

]

Love how peeps just throw words around. Hyperbolic....about what? Since both of you used it, and 1 actually put a face to it. When I say masochistic, I meant causing yourself undue harm, for no other reason to do it to yourself. (Harm in this context means creating a laborious act, in order to feel what....more true to life? It seems to just suck joy away from the game for no real benefit.)

Dismissive of the game? Again throwing words around. How am I dismissing the game? You are the ones that are being dismissive. There hasn't been a D&D ruleset game yet that has tried to change to a cooldown system. You all keep naming games that didn't, that didn't do anything for creating a real fan base. So maybe, especially since there's Solasta that is also in in EA already doing the true to life ruleset, we could....idk try testing out something a little different and see which game does better.

Saying we might as well just reset spellslots after battle, is actually being hyperbolic. We're throwing the baby out with the bathwater again. Cooldowns provide in combat balancing. Rest resets don't do all that much to balance in combat, just length of combat. Like I said its a sledgehammer approach.

Again I go back to the point resting in unrealistic timeframes is immersion breaking. This is something everyone seems to be able to see on the other end of the scope of not having to rest at all, which again would be your choice not to RP it yourself, but don't see how constantly doing it does. It also downgrades the whole meaningful experience that camping should be to a few clicks.

The best way I can think of to explain this is that the rest mechanic as it stands having spell/skill availability tied to it is a vampire, sucking the enjoyment out of the things it touches.

Again I will also address, maybe there are some that don't mind the rest mechanic, or maybe they even like it, however most people obviously do not.

As far as Fire Emblem goes, I've never heard of it, so I cant comment too much, but from some quick research, there isn't a "rest mechanic" just downtime in-between. The only "resting" thing I found on that quick search was to get a 50-100% XP boost to your students. Which is quite funny, as it is something I said I'd be in favor of for rest mechanics. Of course there should be downtime, would be nice to have some downtime features, like I mentioned in another post having a city management option for the goblin village and/or druid grove. Have it completely side quest, that got some very dismissive responses. Hey you don't have to play it, but I like having some other game features besides just punching people in the face, if I cant talk to them or buy something from them.

Love how I've actually spent time trying to discuss this, and actually make a case, and point things out, and I'm the one that gets called dismissive, hyperbolic, flamebaity, etc. Yet, not a lot of the responses have actually offered up more than just those types of comments.

Again, it's irrelevant. You're not an authority on what's popular. And I really don't think you're going to change anyone else's mind on what they enjoy by appealing to this.

I want D&D to be popular, but that's because I want other people to like the things I like. If it becomes a thing I don't like, then if I care at all then I'll want them to hate it.

If you don't like skill slots/charges, or if your friends you want to share this game with don't like skill charges, then you can talk about that. That would be a solid argument and that's not an appeal to popularity. That's not quite what I'm hearing here.

Again, let Larian worry about what's popular. They can do their own market research and manage their own business. I will understand if they make a decision that I believe makes the game worse simply because they think it's more popular/safe (such as the DOS2-style "open" level design that stripped away the world map). But that doesn't mean I'll agree that it's better, and if they make too many sacrifices then they risk leaving me behind.

There's really no point being here to just advocate for what other people you've never met might want. It just seems absurd.

And again, the part that really has me confused is that the fantasy RPG you seem to want -- DOS2 -- already exists. Why don't you just ask Larian to make DOS3 instead? It seems to be at least 90% what you want. What would you change about DOS2?

Ah, the real meat.

Anyway, I could address these points, but I think they already have been. D&D is fun. Given that the Baldur's Gate brand is tied to D&D (which is currently interpreted as 5E), the burden is on you to justify why deviations from the D&D 5E model would be for the best.

The core burden you have is explaining how the element you're criticising fails in the context of Baldur's Gate 3, and why the best solution is to nuke it by completely removing/replacing the element.

Well, as I tried initially to say, it comes down to personal preference.

You just don't like a resting system, for whatever reasons. And I am pretty sure, whatever argument will be brought up, why someone LIKES or PREFERS a system where powerful mechanics are tied to resting, you will dismiss them.

Some of your arguments came across deragotive, 'sucks the fun out', 'masochistic', 'archaic', to name a few with which you attributed a resting system. And well, these are not really arguments, but really sound like subjective points of view.

I for one can't understand, what in the world would be so much better with cooldowns. For me, my character doesn't feel more powerful. I would just be able to see some very flashy special effects a little bit more often in a battle, that's it for me.

And, as I think everybody who wants a resting system in a D&D game has stated, the resting system in BG 3 is not very well implemented, there is definitely room for improvement.

@everything else going on, that I've needed more time to comment on.

Rest resetting has evolved even in the PnP setting. The PnP setting got more fast paced, as some others have gotten interested in it. Since it has, it has added a short rest for even that setting. D&D has modernized itself on the PnP side. Adapting a mechanic to the video game landscape, is the logical thing to do. They tried to stay as true as possible to the system for DDO, and even there they adopted a mana system, which lets you spam spells. At least cooldowns limit them. Combat usually does not extend past 5 rounds. Cooldowns lasting 4-5 turns limit them to 1 time per battle, this makes it serve the same purpose as the rest reset mechanic. As a matter of fact you can balance it even better, because you can make higher level spells/abilities more restricted. Spellslots would allow me to actually spam a spell back to back, as long as I have them available, and is less strategic overall. Cooldowns serve the same exact purpose of balance, that rest resets do, except they do it better. What reason is there to keep rest resets other than "that's the ruleset bro". Once upon a time there was 4E too, which was the worst thing WotC ever produced.

Because it was cherrypicked out again, I will address it AGAIN. My statement about popularity, wasn't that it should be implemented because its popular. I stated I'd like a D&D based game to actually be popular enough for it to get a successful franchise. That is why it is a relevant statement, because I'd like more content to become available. I firmly believe those games are more popular because of that mechanic, not that the popular games just use them. Sticking to things because, "that's just the way we've always done it", is a terrible reason. What holds back the D&D inspired games from actually being received by a wider audience? Is it the stories? Nope, I think the D&D based ones have some of the most interesting/epic storylines. Is it cuz peeps don't play RPGs? Nope, definitely not that one. Is it the barrier to entry. Maybe, character creation, leveling and advancement is slightly more confusing than other games out there, but then again there are games that are even more min/max that have popularity. Is it because the gameplay sucks or its clunky? Nope, D&D nails combat. Is it because it loses fun factor because it has laborious chore like mechanics, that don't translate to the medium of PnP to cRPG well. Pretty sure that's the reason. I would even argue that a lot of you arguing against it prefer cooldown mechanics, but just don't want them in this game cuz you want a true to life ruleset, even if it makes parts of the game less fun. Sounds masochistic to me.

What really happens if we use Cooldowns instead of Rest Resetting spell availability?
1. The same effect of balance. Better balancing overall, because you can fine tune it better. Rest resetting is a sledgehammer approach, mana is a slightly smaller/bigger hammer depending on how you look at it approach, and cooldowns are a dagger approach.
2. You can still keep rest mechanics. You can still make some spells restricted to 1/day.
3. Your character can have a more realistic day/night rest cycle.
4. Combat becomes more strategic, because you have to use more than 1 spell you really like from each level.
5. We could get a Day/night cycle, that we can't control. This adds so much more RP value.

What happens if we don't change them.
1. AA slog battles.
2. Not being able to really appreciate your character in battle, always having to force yourself to hold back, and never truly being able to just unload on an enemy.
3. Rest cycles are entirely unrealistic.
4. You cant fine tune balance, meaning once we get to level 20 in this game or future expansions, all combat will be a slog, and or completely irrelevant, and/or those levels will continue to be locked off, because gameplay at those levels is just bleh.

What happens if options that have been suggested, are added on top of this poor mechanic.
5. Day/Night cycles will be so fast they will be unrealistic, or so slow that you have to sit around and wait for night time just so you can rest.
6. If you make it limited to 1 rest per 2hrs of play, you are forcing people to sit around and wait, creating even more of a negative experience for them, and making the game get bad reviews.

In closing, you can achieve better balancing, and you can implement a more meaningful resting mechanic, when it is not tied to skill/spell availability. That more meaningful rest mechanic will have actual roleplay value. You could add a day night cycle, that can make the game more immersive. You can add in an actual time into the games, that is impactful and meaningful. You can actually improve the overall experience, and implement more things and not have them be negatives, but positives.

If you're going to counter point this, at least give real reasons, and discuss in good faith.

....so if we could have a good faith discussion, without strawman arguments, and dismissing things on an arbitrary basis....that'd be great.

Kind of wonder if you are just here to troll.

After calling people who simply have different opinions on the matter "lunatics"! You must be joking. xDDD

the market research is already there imho. There is obviously something holding it back from being more popular.

The only other thing I've heard is, "a game can be made true to the 5e rules" yep, they have been, and yet other titles with inferior writing get better recognition, awards, acclaim, popularity, [...]

[...] and are more enjoyable to play.

Just because I want the cooldown feature, that is in another game, doesn't mean I want that games sequel.

Actually they really haven't been addressed or at least not in a conductive manner.

Cuz I said it was lunacy to not even realize that Tabletop and PC are different formats? That is actually exactly what I'm talking about. You are trying to undermine reality, in order to "win" the discussion. I can only assume you are trying to grief me and act in bad faith.

Love how peeps just throw words around. Hyperbolic....about what? Since both of you used it, and 1 actually put a face to it. When I say masochistic, I meant causing yourself undue harm, for no other reason to do it to yourself. (Harm in this context means creating a laborious act, in order to feel what....more true to life? It seems to just suck joy away from the game for no real benefit.)

You all keep naming games that didn't, that didn't do anything for creating a real fan base.

Saying we might as well just reset spellslots after battle, is actually being hyperbolic. We're throwing the baby out with the bathwater again. Cooldowns provide in combat balancing. Rest resets don't do all that much to balance in combat, just length of combat. Like I said its a sledgehammer approach.

Again I go back to the point resting in unrealistic timeframes is immersion breaking. This is something everyone seems to be able to see on the other end of the scope of not having to rest at all, which again would be your choice not to RP it yourself, but don't see how constantly doing it does. It also downgrades the whole meaningful experience that camping should be to a few clicks.

The best way I can think of to explain this is that the rest mechanic as it stands having spell/skill availability tied to it is a vampire, sucking the enjoyment out of the things it touches.

As far as Fire Emblem goes, I've never heard of it, so I cant comment too much, but from some quick research, there isn't a "rest mechanic" just downtime in-between. The only "resting" thing I found on that quick search was to get a 50-100% XP boost to your students. Which is quite funny, as it is something I said I'd be in favor of for rest mechanics. Of course there should be downtime, would be nice to have some downtime features, like I mentioned in another post having a city management option for the goblin village and/or druid grove. Have it completely side quest, that got some very dismissive responses. Hey you don't have to play it, but I like having some other game features besides just punching people in the face, if I cant talk to them or buy something from them.

Love how I've actually spent time trying to discuss this, and actually make a case, and point things out, and I'm the one that gets called dismissive, hyperbolic, flamebaity, etc. Yet, not a lot of the responses have actually offered up more than just those types of comments.

@Ayvah, Circular logic, 0 value.

we can also look at how many times and how long D&D has been around and yet doesn't compete on the same level.

Masochism can also be enjoyment of something tedious. words are more flexible. Also they aren't always literal.

We can compare games, we can also look at how many times and how long D&D has been around and yet doesn't compete on the same level.

Why make me click the mouse a few times at all, other than to just do it? The length of the cooldowns would depend on the spell level and the spell itself. Cantrips would be 1 per turn, level 1s prolly anywhere between 1-2 turns, and so on.

Ah but if you go to a monastery to reset your skills/spells, that's not making your character sleep for 8 hrs every 0.5-2 hrs. It may seem like semantics to you, but it pulls me out of character, it breaks immersion.

Add a church to go pray at to regain your spells, that would actually be better, and less immersion breaking. However, that being said, cooldowns still have better balancing capability than rest resetting does.

I will try to make a point of reading back thru, but I don't remember any points made as to why the 'spellslot rest reset mechanic' is actually a good mechanic, or as to why the 'cooldown mechanic' is bad. I put that in quotes, because I mean that exact mechanic. Not resting itself.

I'd like data for that. 5e sales, Roll20 usage

So Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 did equivalent to Dragon Age and Oblivion. That sounds pretty good to me.

It's probably more brand-name recognition than anything else.

Inquisition tripled BG1&2s sales. I couldn't find the data for origins, but id imagine it did at least as good as inquisition. The point here is that these other games skyrocketed or at least doubled, none of the D&D titles did.

only number i can find on origins is that it sold 3.2m in the first yr, cant get a total sales anywhere tho.

Well the gamer population grows year to year. BG 1 and 2's sales numbers for a 90's release is pretty stellar. Neverwinter Nights did well too, even through WoW was clearly a juggernaut over them. By an large WoW, owned the MMO market until FFXIV.

I'd say DnD brand games have been punching above their weight. I don't even remember Daggerdale or Icewind Dale getting much marketing, depending on their budget both could actually be successes. The Witcher series was a juggernaut in every sense of being a gaming juggernaut. Skyrim is Skyrim, it'll be a release title for Playstation 7 and XBOX 180.

Oblivion was more obscure than D&D. Skyrim is the successor to Oblivion. Icewindale was meant to be the successor to BG and NWN. Nobody made a D&D game after that until Daggerdale, and it was a joke. Icewindale was released after Skyrim. NWN2 was still releasing expansions 2 years before Skyrim.

D&D should be punching higher than the others. FFS they had Bioware at the helm of there games for over a decade.