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Cerbir Offline OP
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Tom Tucker: Hey Ollie, hows that evil playthrough?
Ollie: IT'S BAD!


Please note that I am focusing primarily on the grove arc here.
With that out of the way, here we go, playing as a no holds barred antagonist is lame.
REALLY lame.
.
First: It is so much more expensive, the sheer costs of doing this are absurd. I burned a cubic ton of restorative items, scrolls, barrels, grease bottles, alchemists fires, GOLD, and revive scrolls on just the fights alone. Beyond that you end up butchering vendors so gold income and also takes a serious hit, on top of that you end up losing Wyll and Gale (if you don't pass a check that is, wyll leaves no matter what).

Second: The payout sucks! After everything I lost taking this especially dire path all I got in the end was the meager possessions of a bunch of refugees along with whatever you feel like prying off the druids sorry carcasses. OH! There's also a sex scene with Minthara but, that is a very fleeting "reward" indeed as she tries to murder shortly afterwards and tells you not to go back to the goblin camp even if she doesn't whack you, so thats one less vendor to buy and sell with. In short Drow boobs are fleeting, lost companions and vendors are forever. It's just a bad deal on the whole.

Third: It's bloody difficult. First you gotta pass a lot of checks in order to do the evil rout, then you need to go very out of your way through a lot of dialogue, then you need to NOT take any of the two dozen outs they give you in case you suddenly don't want to be an ABSOLUTE scumbag then after all that you ultimately get to be utterly wrecked by a swarm of very angry druids who will ABSOLUTEly beat the tar out of you and a handful of goblins.

Last: Going 100% hardcore and taking every evil possible action that can be taken, is stupid to the point of actively shooting yourself in the foot... repeatedly.


"Everyone is the hero of their own story."
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Not to mention, the Minthara intimacy scene is... well, to quote you, It's Bad!

Like, Really Bad. (Discussion break down Here (Scene spoilers, potentially nsfw))

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Originally Posted by Cerbir
First: It is so much more expensive, the sheer costs of doing this are absurd. I burned a cubic ton of restorative items, scrolls, barrels, grease bottles, alchemists fires, GOLD, and revive scrolls on just the fights alone.
Have you concidered that you probably did it wrong? o_O
I dunno where is the problem, i managed to wipe out whole groove with cantrips used only ... not single special arrow, not single scroll, not single potion, not single spellslot used.

Originally Posted by Cerbir
Beyond that you end up butchering vendors so gold income and also takes a serious hit, on top of that you end up losing Wyll and Gale (if you don't pass a check that is, wyll leaves no matter what).
There is still at least 5 additional ventors, some of them you will loose too, as story goes ...

- Tollhouse paladins
- Zhentarim hideout
- Goblin camp vendor
- Volo
- Society of Brilliance vendor in Myconid colony
Ofcourse, if you decide to kill them all ... you are screwed, but that is just simple consequence of your own actions.

Originally Posted by Cerbir
Second: The payout sucks! After everything I lost taking this especially dire path all I got in the end was the meager possessions of a bunch of refugees along with whatever you feel like prying off the druids sorry carcasses.
What did you expected? O_o
Zevlor specificly tells you that they dont have much, multiple times.

Also Minthara is willing to pay you (i mean gold, not the other thing), if you play your dices right.

Originally Posted by Cerbir
OH! There's also a sex scene with Minthara but, that is a very fleeting "reward" indeed as she tries to murder shortly afterwards and tells you not to go back to the goblin camp even if she doesn't whack you, so thats one less vendor to buy and sell with. In short Drow boobs are fleeting, lost companions and vendors are forever. It's just a bad deal on the whole.
Have you ever heared the expression: "You have played your cards, and you played them wrong ... now you loose." ?

Also you cant possibly know if that was a bad deal, since you didnt get to the end yet ... not every step in our journey need to be superefficient, and profitable, that would be lame.

Originally Posted by Cerbir
Third: It's bloody difficult.
Its not. laugh

Originally Posted by Cerbir
First you gotta pass a lot of checks in order to do the evil rout
And for every single check there is a way go get around ...

- Goblin guards on other side of bridge?
> Bring Sazza / use tadpole / be a drow / sneak around (three routes actualy!) / kill them all (yup, even if you kill them, and even if they use alerting drums ... rest of the camp is still friendly, when you get there) / and even if i think it would be exploit, and i dint try it yet ... i believe you would be able to fast travel to goblin camp using their own waystone, when you discover it with your familiar ... wich could easily get there if you are warlock, since they can turn invisible.
- Goblin guards inside the gate?
> Bring Sazza / use tadpole / be a drow / sneak around (only one route here, but its there)

What other checks you need to pass? laugh

Originally Posted by Cerbir
then you need to go very out of your way through a lot of dialogue, then you need to NOT take any of the two dozen outs they give you
Why is this an issue? How is this an issue? O_o
Every time you want something, you need to NOT take any other options. laugh

Originally Posted by Cerbir
in case you suddenly don't want to be an ABSOLUTE scumbag then after all that you ultimately get to be utterly wrecked by a swarm of very angry druids who will ABSOLUTEly beat the tar out of you and a handful of goblins.
Well, if you decide in middle of attack ... it is actualy kinda late. laugh
But until then, even with goblin army before doors, you can simply turn out to be doublecrossing bastards, and betray Goblins at litteraly any time. O_o
If you get any other outcome, it was probably simple bug.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Cerbir
Tom Tucker: Hey Ollie, hows that evil playthrough?
Ollie: IT'S BAD!


Please note that I am focusing primarily on the grove arc here.
With that out of the way, here we go, playing as a no holds barred antagonist is lame.
REALLY lame.
.
First: It is so much more expensive, the sheer costs of doing this are absurd. I burned a cubic ton of restorative items, scrolls, barrels, grease bottles, alchemists fires, GOLD, and revive scrolls on just the fights alone. Beyond that you end up butchering vendors so gold income and also takes a serious hit, on top of that you end up losing Wyll and Gale (if you don't pass a check that is, wyll leaves no matter what).

Second: The payout sucks! After everything I lost taking this especially dire path all I got in the end was the meager possessions of a bunch of refugees along with whatever you feel like prying off the druids sorry carcasses. OH! There's also a sex scene with Minthara but, that is a very fleeting "reward" indeed as she tries to murder shortly afterwards and tells you not to go back to the goblin camp even if she doesn't whack you, so thats one less vendor to buy and sell with. In short Drow boobs are fleeting, lost companions and vendors are forever. It's just a bad deal on the whole.

Third: It's bloody difficult. First you gotta pass a lot of checks in order to do the evil rout, then you need to go very out of your way through a lot of dialogue, then you need to NOT take any of the two dozen outs they give you in case you suddenly don't want to be an ABSOLUTE scumbag then after all that you ultimately get to be utterly wrecked by a swarm of very angry druids who will ABSOLUTEly beat the tar out of you and a handful of goblins.

Last: Going 100% hardcore and taking every evil possible action that can be taken, is stupid to the point of actively shooting yourself in the foot... repeatedly.





Honestly, entire "evil side" has severe problems when it comes to design. The lack of a specific reward is just a cherry on top of everything. But that's because it''s EA, so it's not really suprising.
The current interactions suit the chaotic evil alignment atm, so you are right, that it's often shooting yourself in the foot. But that's not the problem, the thing is, that we should be able to roleplay as every alingment.

The entire attack part on the grove is problematic, because:

- The fights take forever to complete. This is especially bad when we're fighting inside the camp, with 5 goblins holding the barrels taking a turn to move and punch the tieflings, just to miss almost all the time or deal 1 point of damage.
- There is little interactivity and we cannot influence how the siege itself is going. At least the good guys have the whole "barrels with oil" preparation. You can stay afk and all of the fights will be won anyways, besides the druid battle.
- It's just "murderhobo", we cannot decide to spare tieflings. Even a evil character could find a good reason to not kill them.
- It's full of bugs. Wyll can completely block the quest if he is alerted to our plans with Minthara; Sazza interactions make it impossible to start. The goblin reinforcements for the druid fight can turn against you, if you attack druids from the high ground (they even scream about alerting the guards and attack you with druids, wtf)
- I wouldn't say that there is no reward, we do get a few unique/magical items and tons of cheap items, which if sold do give us considerable amounts of money. Problem is that it's tedious to sell 1000000 swords/chainmails. I'd rather have a few good items than hundreds of cheap spears to sell for few gold pieces each.
- Indeed it's too time consuming/tedious to get into goblin camp.
- We should get a new merchant camp follower post the battle to solve the problem that you have mentioned; that is having 1 less trader.
- There is 0 sense in our PC having to kill Halsin if we side with Minthara and same goes for good side, just with Minthara "replacing" the Halsin. We want to maximise the chance of us getting healed, right? And there is a difference in fighting them and letting them live, so that we can have a good use of them/out of genuine sympathy/honor/whatever.

The fight with druids itself isn't difficult for experienced player, but I can see that new/inexperienced strategy players struggle with it. A few more goblin helpers wouldn't hurt.
We do not know how the entire Minthara route will end, but atm it's most likely that she will be a companion at later parts of the game.

I have made a post about this exact problem before and with Ragnarok, we've discussed quite a lot of things. I will quote myself from other thread, because the same points apply here. Reinventing the wheel doesn't need to happen. And basically that topic was almost wholly about the "bad" side, featuring lots of ideas which fix the most common problems and also at same time, can be used for good side. As they say, it's "killing 2 birds with one stone". Most of it also uses already existing game mechanics or it's very easy to code into the game.


It's taken from:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888&page=2
If you are interested.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
1) The first fight with goblins upon reaching the druid grove.
Problem: As soon as we approach the druid grove, a fight breaks out between goblins and tieflings. We can't wait it out, we can't decide to join the goblins either.
Solution: Allowing the player to choose sides could create a good opportunity for the PC to initiate the "evil path" without requiring multiple dialogues + checks later (or saving Sazza/being drow), when entering the goblin camp. It would also lessen the feeling of players being directed by the game to side with Druids/Tieflings.
When siding with Goblins, during the fight, we should be still able to enter the Grove without a major fight happening. The only people who could recognize us, are Zevlor, Wyll and one of guards at the gate. Persuasion/Intimidation check should let us avoid the fight with those characters.

Problem: Wyll dies when jumping down during the encounter.
Solution: He can't die, instead he is reduced to 1 hp whenever someone deals the "finishing blow". A second hit, when he is unable to fight, only from player, can finish him off.

2)Siege of the grove and camp celebration

BOTH SIDES

Problem: Currently, the siege on both sides isn't the most interesting combat in the game, because:
a) It's long due to big amount of combatants
b) We can't influence it much
c) Little outcomes exist except wiping out the enemies

Solution:
- Possibility of convincing the leader of Goblins to use the secret tunnel, resulting in different scenario of attack. Cutscene should appear at the start, with PC deciding which side to take. The attackers should divide into 2 groups, one coming from the tunnels and one from the side of the gate.
- Leader of the opposing force dying/being knocked out/incapitated should affect their soldiers negatively.
- Killing enough enemies should not only affect the combat effectivness of the particular side, but also if enough combatants die, the rest should flee.
- During the fight, Minthara and Zevlor should be brought down to 1 hp first, instead of being outright killed. Only player should be able to finish them off for good. Scroll of revieve/resurrection should still be able to bring them back though.

SIDE OF THE ABSOLUTE - SIEGE

Problem: Bugs
a) Escorting Sazza to Minthara and letting her die afterwards, can completely block the quest from progressing. None of usual methods of initiating the fight work. (no cutscene at gate triggers, Zevlor says nothing, using the horn doesn't work)
b) Betraying Wyll during the interaction with the drow, results in him fleeing to the druids to warn them. Homever, this causes the attack to be completely bugged:
- TIeflings in hideout are not affected by the fear effect and fight us normally. There is no help from Minthara and goblins either.
- After the battle on the walls and inside the camp is over, Drow warlord is stuck in the camp area, refusing to go anywhere and repeating the same voiceline when talked to.
- Druids hide inside the caves, with the normal entrance being locked. We can still go around and arrive from the library via secret tunnel, but even if all druids die, the questlog fails to update and the leader of Goblins still insists that there is someone left.
- Wyll is missing in the grove and even if you kill all the Tieflings and Druids, quest is still stuck, with the drow still saying that someone is left alive.
This might be caused by Wyll being counted among defenders, but not being there.

Problem:Not enough options are present
Solution:
a)Another quest from Minthara before attacking should be present. The questline ends too quickly compared to the "good" side.
b)There aren't enough possible outcomes for tieflings. Solutions mentioned in this thread include:
- Sell them to slavery ... either to Zhentarim, or to Underdark
- Sacrifice them for the Absolute ... either right there, or send them to Moonrise Towers
- Give them to goblins
- Let them go, to spread word of what happened here ... with possibility to send goblins after them.
c)We should be able to weaken the druid grove by playing on the conflict between Druid Kagha and Zevlor. A way to make them fight between each other should exist, like showing the tieflings that Kagha works for Shadow druids, which would result in her + few of druids (not all) fighting against Zevlor, us and tieflings + druids loyal to Halsin.
d)Zevlor, Kagha, Halsin should be possible to capture.
e) Fight in the camp is too long, because of amount of fighters and distances. Some of the combatants cause next to no damage (goblins with barrels) while still pro-longing the turn time.
This could be solved by moving all the tiefling defenders from this area, to the walls and completely skipping this part.

SIDE OF THE ABSOLUTE - CAMP CELEBRATION

Problem:Bugs/Unintended behavior
Talking to Minthara after the battle, still at the grove and knocking her out glitches the whole final part of the quest. If we return back from the camp, after a long rest, she talks to us as if nothing happened, telling us that she will visit our camp. Homever, returning to camp doesn't start the celebrations. Nothing happens, except for Halsin attacking us.

If we happen to fight the drow lady, after the camp celebration and knock her out, no matter the previous treatment (if we were nice to her, or not) and we return to camp after the long rest, she is initiating the fight with 1 hp. Even if we knock her out again + come back after another long rest. It makes no sense.
We should be able to capture her afterwards or decide to patch her up. (if we treated her well and failed the 5 DC persuasion check)
Both could happen as well at same time.

Exact same problem happens with Halsin, when he attacks us. We can cause infinite amount of fights with him being 1 hp at the start.
Could be easily solved by a dialog happening between him and us, with a possibility to not kill him and via persuasion still gain the help (although the degree should be lesser, compared to the "good side"). He should be possible to capture here as well, if fight happens.

SIDE OF THE TIEFLINGS - SIEGE

Problem: Same as above, not enough interactions.
Solution:
a) When Minthara talks to us about the Gate, we could report this to Zevlor, to use it as a trap. When the attack starts, we should "open the gate", although this time to help the defenders. What happens after is that goblins charge inside and then, gate gets closed, cutting them off from the rest of attackers (for some time at least) resulting in tactical advantage.
b) If we happen to capture the Minthara during the battle inside the tunnels, we could bring her as a prisoner straight to the walls to make the Goblins flee.

Problem: Outcomes of the battle being different, instead of just killing all the enemies.
a) Minthara is knocked out, battle ends. Zevlor talks to us, what to do with new prisoner.
The options should include:
- Giving her to druids/tieflings
- Finishing her off
- Taking her as a prisoner
b) Minthara is dead, battle is over. Current version of cutscene is started.
c) Minthara is unable to fight, due to being too wounded and exhausted, but still conscious + fight is over. First, we can approach her, to ask a few questions and possibly foreshadow our intentions, then cutscene with Zevlor discussing with us about what to do with drow starts. Or we just finish her off.
d) Attackers flee, the Drow warlord is at full health. Tries to escape, ends up being captured. Altered cutscene with Zevlor plays.
e) The Cleric of Absolute is surrounded by the enemies and the rest of her soldiers flee. She tries to make the last stand. Player should be given the possiblity to persuade her to surrender, promising no harm etc. Otherwise she fights until the moment of not being able to fight anymore (1 hp). PC gets to decide to do with warlord afterwards.

3) Kagha and Shadow druids
Possibility to side with her, beyond just sealing the grove should be a thing. Like doing a quest or two. Expanding the questline would be great.

4)Goblin Camp and evil path
Problem: It's very hard to get inside without being a drow or helping Sazza.
Solution:
Siding with goblins during the first grove fight should let us obtain Symbol of the Absolute, carried by all of the cultists, essentially acting as a proof that we are one of them. Same symbol should be possible to loot from one of Goblins, obtained via persuasion/intimidation from the guards at first gate, or we could just force the guards to give it to us via strength, simliar to how we convince the Novice Crusher to listen to us.
This would solve the need for multiple DC due to numerous guards asking for our identity.

Problem: Even though it is expected that the leaders compete for power inside the camp, this isn't clearly shown.
Solution: A possiblity to make a little civil war among the Goblin Leaders.

Problem: The evil questline is too short and we are told too little about it, until the very end.
Solution: Adding a bit of mind-reading checks here and there, adding a few quests in the Goblin Camp area, with some being restricted only to evil path.
This is especially visible when looking at how often we are told, almost straight from the start, how powerful Halsin is, who is he, what abilities he has etc. The lack of simliar narration for the "bad guys" is a little disappointing.

Problem: Game puts a pressure on us, to side with tieflings, or straight tells us "how bad we are now", like what happens with Volo in the camp during the celebration, or the fact that we are handed down the broken lute belonging to Alfira previously. This results in deterring effect towards undecided players.

On top of this, both Priestess Gut and the Dror should be possible to capture, giving us more information about the Absolute.

5) Important characters (Kagha, Zevlor, Halsin, Dror, Priestess Gut, Minthara) should feature additional possibilites, such as:
a) resurrecting, either as an ally (if for example Halsin dies during the escape fight), or just so that we can capture them afterwards
b) capture for interrogation and in case of Minthara and Halsin, convincing them to join our side (not instantly obviously)
Our interactions with prisoners should be varied, in terms of how well we treat them. Especially the 2 most important npcs in act 1, who show a good potential for next acts - Minthara and Halsin.
A good treatment (such as being given a bedroll inside the prison cage, normal food instead of bread and water, etc.) could give an opportunity to recruit them later as a companions (and if player wishes to) even romance. It would be interesting too, seeing how we can either redeem/drag them towards the darkness.

6) Various other improvements
- Knockout and resurrection being properly registered by the game in the journal. Currently game thinks that characters are dead, or doesn't register that they were defeated via knockout.

After introducing the solutions above, a few common player complaints/issues would be solved:
- Evil side is too short/not fleshed out enough/chaotic evil only/"murderhobo"/makes no sense
- There would be no requirement for the Halsin or Minthara to be dead, if siding with the opposing side. Both are very popular and well liked characters and lots of people asked for them to be companions. They can still behave differently in later acts, depending on what side did we take and how did we treat them.
- The replayability would increase by a huge degree. You could roleplay as basically every alignment thanks to those adjustements.
- Siege would be more interesting and also slightly faster.
- NPC dying due to unfortunate consequences wouldn't force a quick-load anymore.
- Being forced to kill tieflings no matter what won't be a thing

Big thanks for everyone who decided to contribute by posting here, especially RagnarokCzD.

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Cerbir Offline OP
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Congratulations on easily killing the hells out of the entire grove without any difficulty whatsoever, you must either be either very experienced, well setup, fortunate enough to come across some things I probably missed or have read a guide in advance.

I had the benefit of none of those things and was shorthanded, for reasons I will get into in a bit
Given how straightforward the goblincide path where all you do is go to positions x, y and z to whack three baddies without much in the way of setup or preamble.. The Evil route is pretty tough by comparison. Heck even the completely optional courtyard fight is easier than the druid grove as you are pretty much handed all of the time and space you need to set the entire area up to your liking

Now as for the point regarding the merchants.

- Never found the Paladins so, I will have to take your word for it.
- The zentarim hideout is locked behind checks, traps and is pretty easy to miss in the first place.
- After the one scene with minthara you are explicitly told not to go back to the camp, so the goblin vendor is out.
- Volo, never freed him from his cage, freeing him didn't seem like the evil thing to do (more on that later as it's pretty relevant to the overall main point here)
- Okay ya got me on the underdark point there as there are two vendors in the colony.

Regarding the payout.

-On the "good" playthrough you get a bunch of sweet weapons, sweet equipment, an absolute trove of stuff to sell off to a very easily and immediately accessible vendor, along with a straight shot into the underdark where even more treasures and such are to be had directly from the goblin camp! On top of all of that a freaking badass druid joins up and hangs out in your camp.

-On the "evil" playthrough you get a few greens (some of which can be acquired on the good run if khaga gets poisoned...) , a lot of grey stuff to loot and sell if you can find a vendor, and a poorly animated sex scene with a woman who immediately tries to murder you! Assuming she doesn't then you get sent through some cursed hellhole (that we don't have access to as far as I know, might be better or worse that the underdark) with a crazy as your guide.

It's a pretty raw deal.

Let's take just a second to talk about companions here.

I ended up losing three different companions in order to follow the "evil" path here.
Wyll, Lae'zell and Gale.
I am now permanently short a wizard, warlock and fighter. This makes the grove fight pretty freaking tough.

-The fighter pulled a knife on me so I talked her into letting me slit her throat, sure there were options to keep her alive but that's not the evil thing to do now is it?
-The wizard attacked shortly after and was unceremoniously stabbed/clubbed to death.
-The warlock dies in the raid.

At this point all I have left have Astarion and Shadowheart who I may just end up sacrificing to the redcap god of fish people because "evil".

Do you know how many folks left/died on the good guy run? NOBODY!!!


I'm not talking about doing one evil questline or a few despicable acts here and there...

THIS IS ABOUT 100% NO HOLDS BARRED EVIL!

Which is just plain counterproductive and stupid on the whole.


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Originally Posted by Cerbir
Congratulations on easily killing the hells out of the entire grove without any difficulty whatsoever, you must either be either very experienced, well setup, fortunate enough to come across some things I probably missed or have read a guide in advance.
You can tune your sarcasm down ... i never said easily.
I was just idiot who didnt long rested before fight, and sold every usable thing except healing potions. laugh

So i had to improvize. smile

Originally Posted by Cerbir
Given how straightforward the goblincide path where all you do is go to positions x, y and z to whack three baddies without much in the way of setup or preamble..
And on Evil route you simply lure Druids out and let Goblins to take care of them ... then you simply clean up leftovers, and voila! :P

Originally Posted by Cerbir
- Never found the Paladins so, I will have to take your word for it.
- The zentarim hideout is locked behind checks, traps and is pretty easy to miss in the first place.
- After the one scene with minthara you are explicitly told not to go back to the camp, so the goblin vendor is out.
- Volo, never freed him from his cage, freeing him didn't seem like the evil thing to do (more on that later as it's pretty relevant to the overall main point here)
- Okay ya got me on the underdark point there as there are two vendors in the colony.
And i specificly told you that: "some of them you will loose too, as story goes ..."
So i take this as agreement.

Originally Posted by Cerbir
Regarding the payout.
Not payout, loot.
Payout is what you get from someone, who you do "some job" for. > Minthara paying you gold.
Loot is what you find out by that one you did that "job" at. > Artefacts you mention.

Originally Posted by Cerbir
-On the "good" playthrough you get a bunch of sweet weapons, sweet equipment, an absolute trove of stuff to sell off to a very easily and immediately accessible vendor, along with a straight shot into the underdark where even more treasures and such are to be had directly from the goblin camp! On top of all of that a freaking badass druid joins up and hangs out in your camp.
Items - Wasnt one of your compainments that goblin camp becoming hostile, and Minthara attacked you? Gues what that means ... all this loot is obtainable, for evil playtrough as well. wink
Vendor - We allready talked about that.
Underdark - Yup, goblins are holding one of four entrances ... and yup, you can use even that one, even if they are allready hostile to you, it takes some work and few spells ... but its possible. wink
Additional treasures - As far as i know, all Underdark is connected, so in theory, you should be able to get all "even more treasures and such". wink
Halsin - I get you like his model, its quite nice character ... but Minthara is too. :P

Originally Posted by Cerbir
-On the "evil" playthrough you get a few greens (some of which can be acquired on the good run if khaga gets poisoned...) , a lot of grey stuff to loot and sell if you can find a vendor, and a poorly animated sex scene with a woman who immediately tries to murder you! Assuming she doesn't then you get sent through some cursed hellhole (that we don't have access to as far as I know, might be better or worse that the underdark) with a crazy as your guide.
I dont remember i ever posioned Kagha ... thanks for the tip, it seems like i will have something new to discover in my next playthrough. laugh
You get POTENTIAL sex scene ... and you get it from both sides, only for "evil", if you insist on that word, its Minthara, and for "good" everyone else who you have enough reputation with.
She also dont "immediately tries to murder you" unless you do something pretty stupid, like lure in her head for her sectets.
Also if you play your cards right, all those dice check i have seen so far in persuating Minthara to side with me ... was all dificiulty 1. laugh

Originally Posted by Cerbir
-The fighter pulled a knife on me so I talked her into letting me slit her throat, sure there were options to keep her alive but that's not the evil thing to do now is it?
I dare to presume you have played this once? Twice max?
I have around 9 playthrough behind me so far (yet i still find things that i missed), and the only situation when Lae'zel attacked me with a knife, was related to me using tadpole powers, no matter wich side i join.

Originally Posted by Cerbir
-The wizard attacked shortly after and was unceremoniously stabbed/clubbed to death.
This for example never happened to me ... i wonder if he consumed any magic, or if that was act of pure desperation.

Originally Posted by Cerbir
-The warlock dies in the raid.
And you decided to not ressurect him by scroll, nor talkative skeleton because ... ?

Originally Posted by Cerbir
because "evil"
I think i have located actual source of your problems. laugh

Originally Posted by Cerbir
Do you know how many folks left/died on the good guy run? NOBODY!!!
Then you probably tryed harder. laugh

Originally Posted by Cerbir
Which is just plain counterproductive and stupid on the whole.
In the way you are presenting it? Certainly agree.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Cerbir Offline OP
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Alright I'll tone down the sarcasm. In all fairness I should have said "chaotic evil" as that might have given my obviously stupid decisions a bit of context here as most people can probably gather that perma-killing half of your companions just because you can is really bloody stupid.

For the effort that one puts in both ways, the overall gains and losses are not equal.

-(Lawful) Good: Killing the goblins and helping the refugees. You have more companions at your disposal, better loot and more income sources
-(Chaotic) Evil: Helping the goblins and butchering the refugees and druids. You never have to say "I'm sorry" but that's about it.

These examples are pretty heavily based on some very dramatic extremes here, polar opposites.

On the good playthrough I tried for lawful good. I went very much out of my way to be a good guy, reasoning that the goblins would continue killing and butchering if left alive. made a bunch of mistakes and bad rolls but, by the end where the cutscene plays and you get the "thanks for playing" I had a hoard of stuff and at least medium approval with the companions, apart from Shadowheart who hates my guts.

On the Evil playthrough I shot for chaotic evil (In hindsight lawful evil would have saved me a LOT of trouble and very likely would have had less of a lethality rate but, I digress.) I went out of my way to be as wicked and malicious as possible forsaking common sense and sensibility for maximum cruelty to the point of killing scratch This playstyle is pretty severely punished and borderline nonviable as I ended up perma-killing several companions (scrolls don't work, the skeleton won't fix em up they are dead and gone for good and all with no get out of death cards) and vendors where the only worthwhile thing I really got out of it was never having to say "I'm sorry" not even to Zelvor.


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Originally Posted by Cerbir
In all fairness I should have said "chaotic evil" as that might have given my obviously stupid decisions a bit of context here as most people can probably gather that perma-killing half of your companions just because you can is really bloody stupid.
It certainly is ...
But you know, being chaotic evil dont mean being complete idiot ... it is certainly possible to create chaotic evil stupid character tho, but no one can forbid you to play ploting smart asshole that will follow his own goals.

For example, i plan to create character that will leave nothing but scorched land, decaying bodies and destruction behind him ... and yes i plan to kill litteraly everyone in that playtrough.
Ofcourse i could do that by simply attacking everyone i meet, that would be chaotic evil stupid way.
But i wish to try chaotic evil smart way, meaning i will lure Minthara and her goblin army to druid groove ... when they leave i get rid of Ragzlin and Gut ... then i use Minthara and her goblin army to destroy both druids and tieflings ... and when that will be done, i get rid of Minthara, since i will not need her anymore. smile

Originally Posted by Cerbir
For the effort that one puts in both ways, the overall gains and losses are not equal.

-(Lawful) Good: Killing the goblins and helping the refugees. You have more companions at your disposal, better loot and more income sources
-(Chaotic) Evil: Helping the goblins and butchering the refugees and druids. You never have to say "I'm sorry" but that's about it.
This conversation will be much smoother, if we actualy notice what the other one say ...
For example here i repeat:
- You have litteraly one companion less in Evil playtrough ... all your other loses was consequences of your own decisions.
- Loot can potentialy be the exactly same for both sides, all you can change is how hard it is for you to obtain, or how long it takes.

Originally Posted by Cerbir
On the Evil playthrough I shot for chaotic evil (In hindsight lawful evil would have saved me a LOT of trouble and very likely would have had less of a lethality rate but, I digress.) I went out of my way to be as wicked and malicious as possible forsaking common sense and sensibility for maximum cruelty to the point of killing scratch This playstyle is pretty severely punished and borderline nonviable as I ended up perma-killing several companions (scrolls don't work, the skeleton won't fix em up they are dead and gone for good and all with no get out of death cards) and vendors where the only worthwhile thing I really got out of it was never having to say "I'm sorry" not even to Zelvor.
Yeah ...
You choosed pretty hard way, and it was supposed to be hard ... so i dont quite see the problem here. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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I agree that the pro-goblin/pro-Absolute route is missing some ingredients that could provide exposition and enticements.

It is certainly not the "easy route" for the "lazy evil" character, even if the big battle isn't difficult for a given party. Even playing a very evil character, it's hard to RP going this route.

We are clearly meant to think that Halsin is the most likely source of a cure, (or maybe the Gith Creche, if we aren't too alarmed by the possible meaning of the term "Purification?") It's hard to imagine why a reasonably intelligent evil main character would not just con his way to help from Halsin, and also steal or murder in the Grove as needed, and move on?

The Absolute Cultists are well-written, but in a way that should make only the most foolish of main characters say, "Sure, I am definitely on board with these loonies!"

The player needs to be confronted with more *temptation* to join as they make their journey. As written, the Absolute Cultists just come off as amusingly nutty zealots, and the player is not exposed to anything that should sway them to agree.

---

I think the problem is that there are no NPCs along the way who understand the Party's actual tadpole situation, and who will make the case that keeping the tadpoles, and joining the cause of the Absolute, will be beneficial in some lasting way to the Party.

The cultists are oblivious to the existence of the tadpoles, so it's hard to buy what they are selling: We know they don't understand what is happening to them.

Ethel doesn't share much, and if anything, she further makes the case that it's not going to end well.

The Absolute needs for a Tempter/Temptress NPC to appear to the player who:
A. Demonstrates understanding of the truth of the party's tadpole situation, and
B. Will try to convince the main character that they will be *permanently* be granted special power, and will not just become a Mind Flayer, or just one of many raving zealots, like the cultists and the True Soul we meet before reaching Minthara and Ragzlin in the Goblin Camp.

Minthara's dialogue writing doesn't help here, because it is never made clear that she's any more than an overly devout cleric with telepathy. By the time we meet her, we should already have some more compelling enticement to join.

We could possibly be "playing along" with Minthara's zeal (since we haven't seen anything that should make us feel similarly worshipful to this mysterious new God/Goddess.)

Astarion is the only party member who really *should* like the tadpole, and even he expresses anxiety about the good times ending abruptly with his sprouting tentacles. His dialogue on these subjects is excellent.

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This starts to feel exhausting ...
You spend hours taking link, screenshots, and videos prooving your point ... and when you are finaly done and people are able to see what you have seen ... some new guy comes up with exactly same misstaken points as that one before him. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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Don't take it wrong but that's not evil plays.

That is nihilistic play.

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Originally Posted by Bufotenina
Don't take it wrong but that's not evil plays.

That is nihilistic play.
IMO it's evil route of the story, but sadly only chaotic evil (at this moment). If you look up to my post close to the top, I wrote there a few examples of additional options which would provide us with additional choices representing most of alingments; especially neutral/lawful evil ones.

Lawful or Neutral evil character wouldn't kill Halsin for example, when siding with Minthara just because he is able to provide us with help. (Or at least player thinks that he can)
Same way of thinking goes why PC has a good reason to not kill Minthara (side of tieflings), simply because she knows quite a lot about the Absolute and PC could use this to a great exent.

Last edited by TheOnlyRealTav; 01/02/21 09:15 PM.
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This post is hilarious in all the wrong ways X]

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Ve are nihilists, Lebovski
Ve believe in nossing!


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Cerbir Offline OP
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Nihilism and Chaotic evil tend to go pretty hand in hand. Even when they aren't on the same side of the table their more often then not at least playing footsie under the table so to speak.
Now lawful evil and neutral evil characters on the other hand have a more strained relationship with nihilism as they generally suffer from a pesky sense of self preservation.

Looking back, might've saved myself a lot of arguing by titling this as the chaotic evil playthrough...


"Everyone is the hero of their own story."

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