Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Feb 2021
Location: Menzoberranzen
Roethen Offline OP
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Feb 2021
Location: Menzoberranzen
Originally Posted by Niara
Options are a good thing; Arbitrary restrictions that make the player feel like they're fighting the UI itself are not... and BG3 already has far too many instances where the player is forced to do exactly that. Inventory management is assuredly one of them.

Adding in a hard slot limit would actually help in this regard, since it would allow them to lock in display dimensions for things and make sure they're all easily visible, or easily accessible at a click, and remove that "fighting the UI" feeling. the actual number of slots can be functionally large enough that no-one ever really has to worry about it except in extreme cases - You could take a look at what NWN2 did in this regard. The inventory system there was slot based as well as weight based, but you have a very neat six tabbed pages of slots to play with, and functionally it just allowed for the player to file and sort things as they wanted, easily and cleanly, without ever having to really think about whether they had space for something too often... weight limit was still the most common limiting factor.

Options are a good thing; innately implementing an obscure or obfuscated version of a system and giving no recourse from it is not... and BG3 currently is doing exactly that.
Right now, in BG3, your carrying limit is displayed as being 10 times your Strength Score. However, this number means nothing because nothing and you can carry over it with no effect at all. Nothing actually happens until you are carrying 20 times your Strength score, at which point you become "encumbered". The character cannot run, when not in combat, but it doesn't seem to actually have ANY other effect; certainly no mechanical one. It's just... annoying. It's just a hassle to make the player fight their inventory UI and serves no real purpose. If you load up even more, you become heavily encumbered (though the tooltip still says encumbered), and unable to move at all, but no other actual disadvantages. The point at which this happens is... slightly murky, but it looks as though it kicks in at about when you start carrying more than 24 times your strength. (An 8 Str Astarion displays a carry capacity of 80, becomes encumbered at 160, and becomes heavily encumbered at 192)

Core rules give you a Carrying Capacity 15; no debuffs or disadvantages, just a flat yes/no binary. If you have more than that, you can't carry it all... in game this would be normally be paralleled by the inability to move, which BG3 does at 24 times Str.

Variant Encumbrance in the rules adds gradients with penalties: the fort point is that you ignore the strength requirement of armour; normally this means that if you wear armour (regardless of proficiency) that you don't meet the strength requirement for, your speed is reduced. If using Variant Encumbrance, this no longer occurs. Under this system, you lose 10 feet of speed as soon as you carry more than 5 times your strength score (so for 8 Str Astarion, this would be at 40lb), and if you carry more than 10 times your strength score, you lose another 1o feet of movement, and you have Disadvantage on all checks and saves that use your physical stats (Str, Con, Dex). Your maximum capacity is still 20 time Str.

So, to bullet point:

Core:
- Carry 20 x Str Score; absolute limit, no other penalties.

Variant:
- Ignore Strength Requirement on armour.
- Carry > 5 x Str Score; -10 feet movement
- Carry > 10 x Str Score; -20 feet movement, Disadvantage on all checks and saves using Str, Dex or Con.
- Carry 20 x Str Score; absolute limit.

BG3 Current:
- Visual display carry 10 x Str Score; seemingly meaningless.
- Heavy armour has no visible Strength requirement at any point (though our heavy armour options are limited).
- Carry > 20 x Str Score; Can only walk outside of combat, can still jump, no in-combat penalties.
- Carry 24 x Str Score; absolute limit (can't move), no other penalties (can still jump around (or be thrown if you're a halfling with a strong friend) when carrying in excess of this amount)

Overall, they let you carry more than any 5e system, without any actual penalties other than pointless annoyances. It acts like variant encumbrance, by having two grades, but the grade penalties are just aggravations, not actual considerations; penalties for encumbrance should be meaningful, or they should not exist, one or the other.

Right now, the current system is unclear and murky in its display, but more than that, it should be either simple and user-friendly, without adding extra aggravation to playing the game, or else it needs to have options so players can choose how in-depth they want their inventory management to have to be.

Along with clearer carry capacity rules that don't antagonise the players needlessly, I'd support a limited number of inventory slots that is still large enough to rarely be an issue - but a fixed umber and display so that it's a known commodity for Larian's coding and display UI. All on screen at once, or searchable through tabs would be ideal - remove the risk of things getting lost in long scrolls of empty spaces, and other such UI wrestle points.
+1


Check out my thread on inventory, sizes, and proportions.
Joined: Jan 2021
Location: Brazil
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Jan 2021
Location: Brazil
An easier way to resolve this is with a separate difficulty for these mechanics. The 'easy mode' would be what we already have. And in the 'hard mode', you would have a carrying capacity, encumbrance by armor, penalty to sneak, hunger and thirst, etc. So, it would please everyone.

Joined: Jul 2014
veteran
Online Content
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
A lot of people don't like good design and will always advocate for immediate convenience above anything. Even when that convenience will turn out to be absolutely disruptive for any internal coherence, immersion, difficulty balance and what else.

I've recently got into Conan Exiles for some reason after basically owning it in my Steam library for more than two years and imagine my surprise when I realized that, aside for some glaring flaws, it turned out to be one of the best single-player exploration-focused open world games I've played since the first two Gothic games.
And that was PRECISELY because it doesn't serve the player with all these "small conveniences" that sound sweet at first but kill any sense of being part of a fictional world.
You don't have a shitty minimap constantly telling you about the surrounding, you don't have an omniscient GPS constantly point the next quest, NPC or resource, you don't even have ANY FORM of fast travel until way late into the end game when you can "craft" a building specifically for that purpose.

You know what? It made going around that world AMAZING. Tense, dangerous, at times cumbersome and inconvenient. But amazing. Because deciding if climbing up or down from a perilous cliff had stakes, because the choice between trying to fight a tough enemy or avoid it mattered, because entering a dungeon or facing a boss required to come prepared, because wondering in the middle of the desert asked to the player to have a supply of food and water or starve badly at the worst possible moment. Because going in for an expedition exploring some place far away from your base (and respawn point) required commitment and preparation.

And yet pick any random videogame forum and ask a bunch of casual players what they think of "convenience above design" and you'll get the sort of people who think getting the ability to warp between bonfires from the get go in Dark Souls 2 and sequels was an "improvement" (even if it killed a lot of what made obtaining the Lordvessel so special), that every open world game should have quest markers and GPS, That if you don't allow them to conveniently teleport in and out of anywhere at any time you are not "respecting their time" and similar bullshit.


Well, ranting aside, here's the TL;DR: fuck being able to carry dozens of barrels and exploit every single fight in the game "because it's fun :D". Nah, it's not.

Last edited by Tuco; 10/02/21 11:44 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Yes, I will pick convenience over what some call immersion any day! biggrin I don't care about barrels, though.

Joined: Jul 2014
veteran
Online Content
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Yes, I will pick convenience over what some call immersion any day! biggrin I don't care about barrels, though.
I was just thinking about scum of the earth like you and that other shady guy who doesn't like time limits when going on my tirade.

Last edited by Tuco; 11/02/21 12:54 AM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Tuco
I was just thinking about scum of the earth like you and that other shady guy who doesn't like time limits when going on my tirade.
Unfortunately, that other person was turned to stone by an elf god. However, I still have the option of fast traveling to camp at any time to restore my full health and magic.

Joined: Oct 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Man I miss the days *90s, when devs could do basically whatever they wanted without having so satisfy everyone's opinions on whats fun or not.

Weight limits and slots were amazing. Made you think, this was part of being an RPG game. I think its IMMENSE FUN to be limited on your inventory.
BG2 got it right. You couldn't carry 5 suits of armors with your greatsword of demon slaying, axe of bloodroar and mace of ultimate agony, and a full complement of potions and scrolls. *unless your were a buffed up str 20 plus orc barbarian destroyer!
You still had the rare bottomless bags though. A great solution to satisfy everyone.

Larians implementation of items is just silly, weird, and at worst idiotic. For ALL their games. The items UI is awfull, for ALL their games. The vendors are awfull, for ALL their games.
But people seem to like it...?!? It just does not make sense in a Baldurs gate game.

Oh and If people want convenience just...lol...oh nevermind. This is 2021, I give up...no point arguing.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 11/02/21 08:36 AM.
Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Oh and If people want convenience just...lol...oh nevermind. This is 2021, I give up...no point arguing.

Yepp. It's tough having a discussion on forums these days. If you strongly disagree with something another person say you can't argue against it without being labeled "confrontational" or "toxic" and risk getting banned. They don't want discussion forums any more, they want echo chambers.

Joined: Feb 2021
Location: Menzoberranzen
Roethen Offline OP
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Feb 2021
Location: Menzoberranzen
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Larians implementation of items is just silly, weird, and at worst idiotic. For ALL their games. The items UI is awfull, for ALL their games. The vendors are awfull, for ALL their games.
But people seem to like it...?!? It just does not make sense in a Baldurs gate game.

Oh and If people want convenience just...lol...oh nevermind. This is 2021, I give up...no point arguing.
Thanks for bringing up the vendors. What's the point of showing the price of an item if it isn't the actual price of the item? And trade becomes more about selling as much armor as you can from random looting rather than about selling valuable rare items which should arguably earn you more of a profit.


Check out my thread on inventory, sizes, and proportions.
Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Roethen
Thanks for bringing up the vendors. What's the point of showing the price of an item if it isn't the actual price of the item?
Yes, the vendors are all crooks!

Joined: Nov 2020
Location: Universe
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
Location: Universe
For vendors: isn't it for showing base price before attitude price/charisma modifier?

Also aren't the games some people want labelled survival rpg's. Why not just stick with those? I heard Outward was decent. I've been curious about it myself actually. I've noticed alot of arguments are simply for realistic survival flavor.

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
Also aren't the games some people want labelled survival rpg's. Why not just stick with those? I heard Outward was decent. I've been curious about it myself actually. I've noticed alot of arguments are simply for realistic survival flavor.
Yes, there are a lot of fans of survival games on this forum.

Last edited by Icelyn; 14/02/21 02:19 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
Having limited inventory space =/ survival games


Optimistically Apocalyptic
Joined: Nov 2020
old hand
Online Content
old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
Originally Posted by Dexai
Having limited inventory space =/ survival games

It is a staple of the survival game genre so many now associate it with that genre even though many other games have it in some way.

Tbh I think weight is all we need for there to be a limitation in inventory and just that they should update some weights to be more... correct. Cause as things are right now I can carry around multiple barrels with no penalty on a character with 8 strength. I tend to not like limited slots cause it starts to feel like everyone can carry the same amount or it adds a tiny bit of padding in having to drop things off at a stash whereas just having weight restrictions allows you to feel like your fighter or barb can really carry a lot and that maybe the wizard should just stick with scrolls, still having the need to manage your inventory occasionally while not causing anyone to be forced to spend a long time in the inventory screen micromanaging stacks to try to get the most out of what can be carried.

Joined: Sep 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
Also aren't the games some people want labelled survival rpg's. Why not just stick with those? I heard Outward was decent. I've been curious about it myself actually. I've noticed alot of arguments are simply for realistic survival flavor.
I like having a variety of games to play, so don't tell me to just stick with survival games. :P I get enough of that from the FO76 anti pvp types trying to tell people like me to go and play other games when it is supposed to have pvp and pve. I do play SCUM a fair amount, it is also an EA game with a lot of promise. I mod games like Skyrim with survival stuff and my current DnD game uses common sense, which apparently is being called "survival elements" nowadays I guess. smile I have Outward, Deadside, and DayZ but haven't had time to play them yet. Valheim looks interesting as well.

BG3 was supposed to be based on 5e and there are some survival elements or realism or common sense, whatever you want to call it there. I would be fine with having these things as an option only, but how it is now just seems a bit ridiculous to me. Regardless of having this or not, the inventory system needs some serious rework.

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Dexai
Having limited inventory space =/ survival games

It is a staple of the survival game genre so many now associate it with that genre even though many other games have it in some way.
The funny thing is BG 1 and 2 had limited inventory space but no one seems to be complaining about that. smile
Weight would make more sense to use for this game than inventory slots I think.

Last edited by Zarna; 15/02/21 05:04 AM.
Joined: Mar 2020
M
member
Offline
member
M
Joined: Mar 2020
Just to add my 2 cents.

I dont really enjoy survival games like Long Dark, Subnautica, Minecraft etc... however personally i really like RPGs like Dragon Age, Witcher, Pathfinder, Elder Scrolls, Baldurs Gate, Kingdom Come, Gothic, Fallout and all of those have more than a couple of elements like inventory complexity, in depth crafting, traps, no infinite arrows, alchemy, weight system etc. Im not saying these all should be part of BG3, just that i agree that some of these would make sense to be included in the game.

I like when a game throws you these challenges (some of these as an option you can switch off if it frustrates some people) and these make the game tougher at the beginning but you have multiple ways to overcome them by playing the game more (building your char to a certain way, pick a companion who can help you with that, meet certain npc, buy/found certain item, join certain guild, do certain sidequest, any of these to accomplish your goal). That's basically Larian's motto so the more systems they give me the more i will enjoy this game. I understand thats not everybody's cake but i want to be able to at least customize my playthrough to be more in-depth at full release.

Im patient and hopeful Larian will add some of these, as these can really add more flavour, especially to a 100+ hours game where at certain times you need to detach from combat a little bit. I think making certain proficiencies and classes more use by adding some outside-of-combat activities would be also a big + for single and coop play too. Its a cool feature if party members can contribute to the team's welldoing not just via spells but other class/skill specific ways, like hunting, cooking, singing, crafting, polishing weapons/armor etc. so you feel its a team and you help each out for your common goal. Again, im okay if these are set up to be skippable on normal difficulty and you only need the extra buffs coming from these on higher diff, i usually play on higher diffs anyway. This is a little like in the Witcher where you have some complex systems you dont need to touch if you are running on normal diff and you just want to enjoy the story, but you have the option to use those if you want more tactical play and immersion.

Joined: Jan 2021
Location: Brazil
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Jan 2021
Location: Brazil
I just want to enjoy the best aspects of the game, like the story, the setting, and the combat, instead of spending my time micromanaging the inventory screen. That's why I like Pathfinder Kingmaker's shared inventory (stash) and why I always look for mods to reduce the weight of items in other games. In my D&D campaigns, for example, I never bothered to count how many arrows the PCs carry. The history is important, the inventory is not.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5