A important note here also is that voice acting is expensive and time consuming. I'd rather have a studio focus on more important aspects of the game, of which the build diversity of gear is significantly lacking. this is not even mentioning that an existing crafting system which could resolve this is, in fact not really developed. Put the money there, and in new traders/smiths imo. There is more then enough diversity in voices, and gender identity in the game. I feel like this is a move toward acceptance and validation (of a life style out of it), and not in what is better for the game.
A important note here also is that voice acting is expensive and time consuming. I'd rather have a studio focus on more important aspects of the game, of which the build diversity of gear is significantly lacking. this is not even mentioning that an existing crafting system which could resolve this is, in fact not really developed. Put the money there, and in new traders/smiths imo. There is more then enough diversity in voices, and gender identity in the game. I feel like this is a move toward acceptance and validation (of a life style out of it), and not in what is better for the game.
Once again, VA work is not that expensive unless it is a major name doing it. Not to mention you are confusing a voiced main character with gender identity and validation? I mean where did that come from? I am pretty sure with over 300 employees working on this game, editing some voice for a MC is not some out of the question, or complicated thing to do. This isn't 2000, voice work is not overly complicated or cost prohibited. It seems your more focused on gender identity and sociological aspects, an misunderstanding what PC means in the title. PC = Player Character it does not mean Political Correctness.
There is more then enough diversity in voices, and gender identity in the game. I feel like this is a move toward acceptance and validation (of a life style out of it), and not in what is better for the game.
Please stop trying to divert the thread towards divisive political issues.
Once again, VA work is not that expensive unless it is a major name doing it. Not to mention you are confusing a voiced main character with gender identity and validation? I mean where did that come from? I am pretty sure with over 300 employees working on this game, editing some voice for a MC is not some out of the question, or complicated thing to do. This isn't 2000, voice work is not overly complicated or cost prohibited. It seems your more focused on gender identity and sociological aspects, an misunderstanding what PC means in the title. PC = Player Character it does not mean Political Correctness.
VA work is absolutely cost prohibitive compared to non-voiced lines. Changing a line slightly to allow for a bit more reactivity is only as expensive as the actual implementation of code allowing for that, the writing is not difficult at all to adjust once the base dialogue is set. If you want that voiced, you now need the line completely rerecorded, with likely an entirely new reaction to that line recorded as well. The cost and time investment of doing that consistently over a whole game is obviously going to be much larger than in a non-voiced one.
With enough reactivity you're increasing the amount of voiced lines by a huge amount. It's not like a main PC voice is going to be some cheap nobody, it's a delivery you will hear literally all game, you're going to pay for someone skilled.
Ok, I have to say this because it just really is bothering me. Not to mention it literally KILLS immersion. So bear with me...
You have to have PC voice in your interactions with other characters. I mean I get it, I have BOTH Divinity games, but in todays game environment it really just comes off as lazy. It totally breaks the immersion, not to mention, there are times in the game that the PC speaks during random conversions while in the world. So why not just go all the way with it? I mean this all started in Dragon Age, where everyone spoke except the PC, but I mean even they integrated PC voice in DA 2.
All in all, the game is really, REALLY impressive. I love it so much more than the Divinity series (but that was 4 years ago). Great world building, I recognize a lot of the lore from D&D, the party members are really interesting, and so are the quests. I honestly am CHOMPING AT THE BIT to play more content of this game. I just got it like 5 days ago, and I am already 30+ hrs in, and on my second play through. But the whole silent PC thing, it just kills it for me. I mean especially in the dream sequences. If nothing else, put it in the darn dream sequences...PLEASE.
Thank you.
I'd rather have more variety of voices for less dialog than a fully voiced PC, personally. If you fully voice a PC you've got two voices tops, if you don't fully voice them we get a lot of different options.
edit: Frankly I prefer there to be no VA work because I think it allows for more interesting writing, like with the Shadowrun games. Fully voicing a game decreases the amount of writing and not to mention makes it tiring to playthrough when you read faster than the dialog is read. I'm dreading trying Disco Elysium with the upcoming patch since I'll be skipping half that VA work people put so much time into.
Once again, VA work is not that expensive unless it is a major name doing it. Not to mention you are confusing a voiced main character with gender identity and validation? I mean where did that come from? I am pretty sure with over 300 employees working on this game, editing some voice for a MC is not some out of the question, or complicated thing to do. This isn't 2000, voice work is not overly complicated or cost prohibited. It seems your more focused on gender identity and sociological aspects, an misunderstanding what PC means in the title. PC = Player Character it does not mean Political Correctness.
VA work is absolutely cost prohibitive compared to non-voiced lines. Changing a line slightly to allow for a bit more reactivity is only as expensive as the actual implementation of code allowing for that, the writing is not difficult at all to adjust once the base dialogue is set. If you want that voiced, you now need the line completely rerecorded, with likely an entirely new reaction to that line recorded as well. The cost and time investment of doing that consistently over a whole game is obviously going to be much larger than in a non-voiced one.
With enough reactivity you're increasing the amount of voiced lines by a huge amount. It's not like a main PC voice is going to be some cheap nobody, it's a delivery you will hear literally all game, you're going to pay for someone skilled.
Generally during a productions cycle, it is rare that lines are changed once they are set. They go through a number of edits and revisions before they are finalized and signed off on (and usually have to be signed off on by multiple departments before recording). I have been in production work, trust me by the time you get to production, everything is pretty much set in stone. So the argument that it is cost prohibitive because of possible changes, is so rare, that it hardly happens.
Once again, VA work is not that expensive unless it is a major name doing it. Not to mention you are confusing a voiced main character with gender identity and validation? I mean where did that come from? I am pretty sure with over 300 employees working on this game, editing some voice for a MC is not some out of the question, or complicated thing to do. This isn't 2000, voice work is not overly complicated or cost prohibited. It seems your more focused on gender identity and sociological aspects, an misunderstanding what PC means in the title. PC = Player Character it does not mean Political Correctness.
VA work is absolutely cost prohibitive compared to non-voiced lines. Changing a line slightly to allow for a bit more reactivity is only as expensive as the actual implementation of code allowing for that, the writing is not difficult at all to adjust once the base dialogue is set. If you want that voiced, you now need the line completely rerecorded, with likely an entirely new reaction to that line recorded as well. The cost and time investment of doing that consistently over a whole game is obviously going to be much larger than in a non-voiced one.
With enough reactivity you're increasing the amount of voiced lines by a huge amount. It's not like a main PC voice is going to be some cheap nobody, it's a delivery you will hear literally all game, you're going to pay for someone skilled.
Generally during a productions cycle, it is rare that lines are changed once they are set. They go through a number of edits and revisions before they are finalized and signed off on (and usually have to be signed off on by multiple departments before recording). I have been in production work, trust me by the time you get to production, everything is pretty much set in stone. So the argument that it is cost prohibitive because of possible changes, is so rare, that it hardly happens.
sure, but that's not what I said. Changing a line to allow for reactivity is something that's obviously done before you're sending them off to be recorded, it's planned out well in advance and adds a huge amount of extra work that would not be present when the dialogue is unvoiced. It's not post-production, it's planned writing and small changes within lines and reactions to you that allow for a feeling of your character being a relatively unique figure with their own story going on and place in the world.
It's pretty fundamental to good RPG writing, and voicing lines is absolutely going to add a huge extra barrier to having proper reactivity. Acting like having your main voice actors having to record a huge amount more lines (as well as having many of your other actors record extra lines to facilitate this feeling natural) isn't going to limit the amount of it present is silly.
Once again, VA work is not that expensive unless it is a major name doing it. Not to mention you are confusing a voiced main character with gender identity and validation? I mean where did that come from? I am pretty sure with over 300 employees working on this game, editing some voice for a MC is not some out of the question, or complicated thing to do. This isn't 2000, voice work is not overly complicated or cost prohibited. It seems your more focused on gender identity and sociological aspects, an misunderstanding what PC means in the title. PC = Player Character it does not mean Political Correctness.
VA work is absolutely cost prohibitive compared to non-voiced lines. Changing a line slightly to allow for a bit more reactivity is only as expensive as the actual implementation of code allowing for that, the writing is not difficult at all to adjust once the base dialogue is set. If you want that voiced, you now need the line completely rerecorded, with likely an entirely new reaction to that line recorded as well. The cost and time investment of doing that consistently over a whole game is obviously going to be much larger than in a non-voiced one.
With enough reactivity you're increasing the amount of voiced lines by a huge amount. It's not like a main PC voice is going to be some cheap nobody, it's a delivery you will hear literally all game, you're going to pay for someone skilled.
Generally during a productions cycle, it is rare that lines are changed once they are set. They go through a number of edits and revisions before they are finalized and signed off on (and usually have to be signed off on by multiple departments before recording). I have been in production work, trust me by the time you get to production, everything is pretty much set in stone. So the argument that it is cost prohibitive because of possible changes, is so rare, that it hardly happens.
sure, but that's not what I said. Changing a line to allow for reactivity is something that's obviously done before you're sending them off to be recorded, it's planned out well in advance and adds a huge amount of extra work that would not be present when the dialogue is unvoiced. It's not post-production, it's planned writing and small changes within lines and reactions to you that allow for a feeling of your character being a relatively unique figure with their own story going on and place in the world.
It's pretty fundamental to good RPG writing, and voicing lines is absolutely going to add a huge extra barrier to having proper reactivity. Acting like having your main voice actors having to record a huge amount more lines (as well as having many of your other actors record extra lines to facilitate this feeling natural) isn't going to limit the amount of it present is silly.
I am sorry, but what is "Changing a line to allow for reactivity " because it is basically just sounding like you want to try and overcomplicate and issue to justify your own preference. When you voice record for lines, you have the base lines of dialog, then alternate trees of dialog. These are all noted with what the VA should be portraying (ie: shock, anger, sadness etc). Then the developer assigns that to whatever action it will be in response to. That is how it is done.
" it's planned writing and small changes within lines and reactions to you that allow for a feeling of your character being a relatively unique figure with their own story going on and place in the world."
I mean what that big complicated exchange means, is that what YOU are feeling in your head about how YOU see him as a unique character.
I mean how you feel is fine, just state that. But don't try to justify it by making some crazy "intricate" argument about why it shouldn't be done. Even in regards to the origin characters, besides their base script lines, they would have x number of reply lines with notations on what emotion to portray. Then the developer assigns it to the action tree in the engine. It is not rocket science. Anyone with even the basic knowledge of how a game engine works would know this, and how to utilize game assets. So all that is left is the 3D animation, which actually considering that most of the time the VAs are video taped during their recording, and a software renders their facial expressions on the model. then it just only needs to be lightly tweaked. Why do you think that with the origin characters, their faces look more natural in the cinematics? It is because of the facial software translating that during the VAs audio recording. That is why the custom characters facial expressions look stiffer, because those are hand animations or key framing.
You have to have PC voice in your interactions with other characters.
You don't.
This might be a generational thing; I grew up with protagonists that were usually limited with their lines (remember CDs?) and I hate voiced characters, and if they are voiced, I want them to be very, very barebones and easily modded (read: like BG1 and 2) because this allows me to have a voice made for the character. When my protagonist is (almost entirely) my dwarf can have a jamacan accent, I can have my elf or halfling sound like Barry White. When playing other games with voiced characters like Mass Effect, I can't imagine Shepard is originally from India, or Burhma, or Africa. Having Shepard voiced actually locks you out of roleplaying, constantly reminding you Shepard is from the american continent. This is completely ignoring the logistics involved and extra hard drive space all this would require. My point is, you might like having it but for me if the character's voice is preset, that's a Very Bad Thing; the first thing I do when making a custom character is imagine what they look like, and immediately after what they sound like. To me if your character is doomed with a preset voices you may as well junk the character creator entirely and have set characters; ie, play the preset characters like Gale or Wynn or Asterion, like you can in Divinity, though you can ofc customise their appearence too.
I am sorry, but what is "Changing a line to allow for reactivity " because it is basically just sounding like you want to try and overcomplicate and issue to justify your own preference. When you voice record for lines, you have the base lines of dialog, then alternate trees of dialog. These are all noted with what the VA should be portraying (ie: shock, anger, sadness etc). Then the developer assigns that to whatever action it will be in response to. That is how it is done.
" it's planned writing and small changes within lines and reactions to you that allow for a feeling of your character being a relatively unique figure with their own story going on and place in the world."
I mean what that big complicated exchange means, is that what YOU are feeling in your head about how YOU see him as a unique character.
I mean how you feel is fine, just state that. But don't try to justify it by making some crazy "intricate" argument about why it shouldn't be done. Even in regards to the origin characters, besides their base script lines, they would have x number of reply lines with notations on what emotion to portray. Then the developer assigns it to the action tree in the engine. It is not rocket science. Anyone with even the basic knowledge of how a game engine works would know this, and how to utilize game assets. So all that is left is the 3D animation, which actually considering that most of the time the VAs are video taped during their recording, and a software renders their facial expressions on the model. then it just only needs to be lightly tweaked. Why do you think that with the origin characters, their faces look more natural in the cinematics? It is because of the facial software translating that during the VAs audio recording. That is why the custom characters facial expressions look stiffer, because those are hand animations or key framing.
Changing a line to allow for reactivity is exactly what it sounds like. Where you would generally have a standard line play, if instead you meet a certain criteria regarding your class, backstory, actions in game or relationships to particular NPCs, you instead get a different line. It is reacting to your RP. Like I said, it's a fundamental aspect of good writing in an RPG, but it requires a huge amount of extra work when you're voice acting everything.
Say you have a line that involves introducing your abilities to an NPC, when you are playing a relatively high level paladin. That line isn't hard to write, and it's pretty easy to add reactivity there, so instead of it saying you are a famous paladin, the line instead says you're a powerful wizard, or an skilled rogue. That's pretty easy to do with a non-voiced PC, right? When you decide to voice that instead, you need to record independent lines for every single class, that would need to be spoken differently each time, so you can't splice stuff together really. The barrier to including that dialogue with a fully voiced PC is much, much higher than it is without, where you're just changing a handful of words or even just using an already existing variable. Similar would go for an NPC meeting you, where the line would vary even just in delivery based on your actions before. That's pretty easy to do unvoiced assuming your writers are competent (which I believe they are here), it's minor tweaks to wording. It is not with a voice actor, it is several entirely new recorded lines.
That's a very simplified version obviously, but it carries across whole games, and it massively adds up. Your PC is there constantly, if you don't have the ability to appropriately shape your character and behaviour based on what you have done previously, and if NPCs don't react to this, what's the point of even letting you make choices? Why bother having a custom character at all if they're just going to be objectively inferior experiences to origins again? Reactivity and freedom of expression with a custom PC is extremely important.
I'm really not trying to be rude here, but your not understanding what reactivity even is and thinking that it's fine for an RPG to just have preset lines no matter what you've done or who you are makes me think you haven't really thought through what you're saying very well, or that you aren't reading what I'm saying fully. Like I've got no idea why you're talking about 3d animations at all, or think it's an argument against me?
Ok, I have to say this because it just really is bothering me. Not to mention it literally KILLS immersion. So bear with me...
You have to have PC voice in your interactions with other characters. I mean I get it, I have BOTH Divinity games, but in todays game environment it really just comes off as lazy. It totally breaks the immersion, not to mention, there are times in the game that the PC speaks during random conversions while in the world. So why not just go all the way with it? I mean this all started in Dragon Age, where everyone spoke except the PC, but I mean even they integrated PC voice in DA 2.
All in all, the game is really, REALLY impressive. I love it so much more than the Divinity series (but that was 4 years ago). Great world building, I recognize a lot of the lore from D&D, the party members are really interesting, and so are the quests. I honestly am CHOMPING AT THE BIT to play more content of this game. I just got it like 5 days ago, and I am already 30+ hrs in, and on my second play through. But the whole silent PC thing, it just kills it for me. I mean especially in the dream sequences. If nothing else, put it in the darn dream sequences...PLEASE.
Thank you.
Generally I think its how they present the character during conversations that really stands out as strange. If you play fallout 3 or outerworlds the convos are in first person as you talk to npcs. This makes it less jarring like in bg3 as you watch your mime try to interact.
Ok, I have to say this because it just really is bothering me. Not to mention it literally KILLS immersion. So bear with me...
You have to have PC voice in your interactions with other characters. I mean I get it, I have BOTH Divinity games, but in todays game environment it really just comes off as lazy. It totally breaks the immersion, not to mention, there are times in the game that the PC speaks during random conversions while in the world. So why not just go all the way with it? I mean this all started in Dragon Age, where everyone spoke except the PC, but I mean even they integrated PC voice in DA 2.
All in all, the game is really, REALLY impressive. I love it so much more than the Divinity series (but that was 4 years ago). Great world building, I recognize a lot of the lore from D&D, the party members are really interesting, and so are the quests. I honestly am CHOMPING AT THE BIT to play more content of this game. I just got it like 5 days ago, and I am already 30+ hrs in, and on my second play through. But the whole silent PC thing, it just kills it for me. I mean especially in the dream sequences. If nothing else, put it in the darn dream sequences...PLEASE.
Thank you.
Generally I think its how they present the character during conversations that really stands out as strange. If you play fallout 3 or outerworlds the convos are in first person as you talk to npcs. This makes it less jarring like in bg3 as you watch your mime try to interact.
Yeah that is the irony of it. You watch the beautiful animation of the companions, showing emotion etc on their faces while they talk. Then there is just this jarring, hand animated mime that throws it all off. If they integrated voice in the PC, they would film the facial animations just like the companions and it would look way more natural. Personally I am more for the 3rd person view rather than 1st person for RPG type games. That way you can see the reactions and your character immersed in the game. I mean imagine Mass Effect as a first person view in the cinematics, it would be no where near as impactful. Not to mention, even with DA:I they also did a great job with the character development during the cinematics of the main character. The way they are doing it now is just so offsetting, and either way they go with, they really need to dress up the facial animations of the PC.
True & I'll have to agree to disagree since I'm a fan of first person since it puts you more into the roll of the character instead of playing puppet with strings.
For BG3, I'm going to guess main protagonist voice lines probably in the works, since this is only EA. At least I'd hope so.
You have to have PC voice in your interactions with other characters.
You don't.
This might be a generational thing; I grew up with protagonists that were usually limited with their lines (remember CDs?) and I hate voiced characters, and if they are voiced, I want them to be very, very barebones and easily modded (read: like BG1 and 2) because this allows me to have a voice made for the character. When my protagonist is (almost entirely) my dwarf can have a jamacan accent, I can have my elf or halfling sound like Barry White. When playing other games with voiced characters like Mass Effect, I can't imagine Shepard is originally from India, or Burhma, or Africa. Having Shepard voiced actually locks you out of roleplaying, constantly reminding you Shepard is from the american continent. This is completely ignoring the logistics involved and extra hard drive space all this would require. My point is, you might like having it but for me if the character's voice is preset, that's a Very Bad Thing; the first thing I do when making a custom character is imagine what they look like, and immediately after what they sound like. To me if your character is doomed with a preset voices you may as well junk the character creator entirely and have set characters; ie, play the preset characters like Gale or Wynn or Asterion, like you can in Divinity, though you can ofc customise their appearence too.
Dude, I hate to break it to you but I am 50. So it probably isn't a generational thing. I grew up with the same type of games, but that doesn't mean I want to be locked in the past with them. I mean not everyone wants to do a make believe accent in their head. That is great for tabletop but not a modern AAA video game. Not to mention, you don't want a voiced protag that is fine, they can always have a setting in options to turn voice off. Your comment about junking the character creator and just playing an origin player because of voice goes against practically all modern RPGs. If you don't want voice, I can understand that, and you could always have an option to mute the voice. But I am not saying to you well I don't like silent characters so absolutely don't do it am I. It is not like it is an either or decision here. A PC voice is something that can easily be disabled, and you would also still benefit from the custom facial animations when he/she is "reading" the lines so you can use whatever voice in your head you fancy. Either way, it would be a better presentation of the PC rather than the stiff, crappy facial animations it has now.
It *is* an either-or decision though, albiet not in the way you're thinking. The game's budget is a 0 sum, so if money is diverted into giving 10 (assuming the 4 existing player voices and the playable npcs in early access are all there is) that's going to have to come from somewhere else. I'd rather Larian spend that money on fully voiced player voice acting on new maps, spells, monsters... stuff.
Ok, I have to say this because it just really is bothering me. Not to mention it literally KILLS immersion. So bear with me...
You have to have PC voice in your interactions with other characters. I mean I get it, I have BOTH Divinity games, but in todays game environment it really just comes off as lazy. It totally breaks the immersion, not to mention, there are times in the game that the PC speaks during random conversions while in the world. So why not just go all the way with it? I mean this all started in Dragon Age, where everyone spoke except the PC, but I mean even they integrated PC voice in DA 2.
All in all, the game is really, REALLY impressive. I love it so much more than the Divinity series (but that was 4 years ago). Great world building, I recognize a lot of the lore from D&D, the party members are really interesting, and so are the quests. I honestly am CHOMPING AT THE BIT to play more content of this game. I just got it like 5 days ago, and I am already 30+ hrs in, and on my second play through. But the whole silent PC thing, it just kills it for me. I mean especially in the dream sequences. If nothing else, put it in the darn dream sequences...PLEASE.
Thank you.
Generally I think its how they present the character during conversations that really stands out as strange. If you play fallout 3 or outerworlds the convos are in first person as you talk to npcs. This makes it less jarring like in bg3 as you watch your mime try to interact.
It's weird, in a game like Fallout 2, there was voice acting for npcs but I think because the graphics were so relatively poor and I couldn't see my characters reactions to anything, it seemed fine. With the quality of BG3 and the reactions the player character shows, it's very odd hearing everyone else talking and then my mime just *shrugs* or O.O's. It's distracting for sure
It *is* an either-or decision though, albiet not in the way you're thinking. The game's budget is a 0 sum, so if money is diverted into giving 10 (assuming the 4 existing player voices and the playable npcs in early access are all there is) that's going to have to come from somewhere else. I'd rather Larian spend that money on fully voiced player voice acting on new maps, spells, monsters... stuff.
I think you need to learn a little more about budgeting and development process of games. More importantly how budget is distributed to each department. The audio department has nothing to do with the people making maps, spells monsters etc. Not to mention, you are just making a blind assumption since neither of us are actually studio employees. So neither of us can speak intelligently in regards to budget restraints etc. When I see people go on about cost effectiveness and budget etc, that is just their way of adding credence to their personal preference. If you aren't a fan of voice, that is cool we all have our preferences. Just say that, but don't act like you have some insight on the studios budget process, and what the can and can't support lol.
I think you need to learn a little more about budgeting and development process of games. More importantly how budget is distributed to each department. The audio department has nothing to do with the people making maps, spells monsters etc.
Someone in the company is deciding what departments gets what funding. If sound department goes from needing 'X' for what is currenct planned to 'X+cash-for-extra-voice-acting', that means 'cash-for-extra-voice-acting' has to come from the other departments unless they can raise more money. I understand you want voiced lines, I am simply pointing out it not only breaks immersion for me, but will pull money from elsewhere.
Hard disagree here. I mean, I completely understand why some might like a voiced protagonist, but it kills a level of immersion for me personally. Normally, the voice is nothing like what I imagine my character to sound like, and the forced auto-dialogue lines that come with it just take me even further out of the game. This was a problem for me in Mass Effect and Dragon Age. You also see a drop in the amount of dialogue options available to you because they now need to pay a voice actor by word (or by line, idk).
I can live with the protagonist being voiced, but I much prefer they aren't. Someone mentioned an option to turn off the voicing for the protag so we get the best of both worlds, I think that's a neat idea so long as the voicing doesn't result in an overall lack of dialogue options.
I understand you want voiced lines, I am simply pointing out it not only breaks immersion for me, but will pull money from elsewhere.
You don't like it, but it's not really up to you to work out the budget though. I'm sure there'll be plenty of money wasted on other parts of the game you won't care for. Such is life.
Originally Posted by Some_Twerp753
When my protagonist is (almost entirely) my dwarf can have a jamacan accent, I can have my elf or halfling sound like Barry White. When playing other games with voiced characters like Mass Effect, I can't imagine Shepard is originally from India, or Burhma, or Africa.
I have absolutely no desire to imagine my character with a Jamaican accent. Ugh. Since when is roleplaying about putting on voices? If you're having your roleplaying immersion broken because you can't choose the accent... I just... I'm sorry. That's madness. (And I don't want to imagine you trying to put on an Indian accent.)
But rest assured you'll surely get an option to turn the voices off.
Originally Posted by Auddi213
You also see a drop in the amount of dialogue options available to you because they now need to pay a voice actor by word (or by line, idk).
By the day, unless they're hiring someone for less than that then they would generally have a 2 hour minimum.
I'm kind of curious how much you people think (non-celebrity) voice actors get paid per day? How many days do you think they'd need to record every line for a single player character? Depending on your answer, I might have to consider a cushy career in voice acting.
