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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
This is interesting because I feel higher ground is gimmicky and backstab can be alleviated with simple changes.

Why on earth would having higher ground advantage feel unrealistic to you I wonder? It is a staple mechanism from real life historic battles to Star Wars where having high ground leads to surrender or death lol.
It feels gimmicky because you have to do it every encounter because of Threatened. It's the in-game state, not the real world state. And I wouldn't want Star Wars interpretation of high ground in BG3 either xD

My Thoughts on IRL High Ground (It'd probably be good to share your thoughts in this thread too).

Originally Posted by Seraphael
At least I back up my feeling with reason. Higher ground bonus is realistic because it is an attack that comes from above, forcing the defender to split their attention between navigating the ground and avoiding the lethal threat above. A secondary reason is that it work both ways.

I've used reason several times to back up my statements. You're free to disagree with it.
Originally Posted by Seraphael
You are not constantly reminded that the AI is too dumb, in fact, the AI seeks height advantage almost to a fault. The only reason for it being remotely gimmicky is by proxy of the AI not taking melee advantage, which oftentimes causes the AI to abandon near-melee situations to scamper to higher ground far away.

That's part of the reason it's gimmicky, "Threatened + High Ground Adv/Dis" is part of a total package of gimmicky play.

Originally Posted by Seraphael
As said, the current flanking/backstab mechanic clearly reveals turn-based combat as poor approximation of real combat the way the enemy lets you walk behind them in open combat without reacting. HIGHLY UNREALISTIC! Damaging for immersion (and a sense of fairness) for anyone with any measurable critical sense. The enemy and player should automatically pivot facing enemy flanking attempts even when it's not their turn, provided they are not caught flat-footed and surprised. "Backstab" should require actual realistic movement, like two enemies threatening a single foe and one moving behind (or the aforementioned surprise/ambush).

Allow me to reiterate, is not that you gain a bonus for flanking I feel gimmicky, it's the cheap way you get it.
I agree with you on this, However backstab can be alleviated by having the enemy turn to face the player as the character is moved in combat. And there are other solutions to how cheap backstab is.

Originally Posted by Seraphael
Higher ground isn't nearly as essential for wizards as you make it out (not being threatened is). Wizards have so many more and better options than utilizing cantrips/spells that can leverage height advantage. This becomes, as mentioned previously, more true as you level. By 5th level you can cast Fireball (arguably nerfed by Larians lowering AC/increasing health to combat RNG) and Hypnotic Pattern that can win combat before it gets really dangerous.
Wizard is super fun to play in tabletop and I want it to be just as fun in Baldur's Gate 3. We haven't even had the chance to use Fireball in BG3. I'm tired of having my options limited to Magic Missile and Shatter in various situations.

Originally Posted by Seraphael
Seems to me you universalize your own private playing style/experience when you keep on about Wizards being uniquely locked into a repeating pattern or out of options. To the contrary, the Wizard is arguably the most versatile, mobile, and powerful class in the game, and again - this becomes more true as the Wizard gains level and moves beyond attack cantrips. Near unparalleled mobility can be gained through spells and the Wizard's action economy makes using bonus actions a better deal than for many other classes that has more use of their bonus actions. Level 1 Longstrider gives a decent boost to mobility and lasts all day. Jump is brokenly overpowered, a level 1 spell that basically gives you a free level 2 Misty Step teleport every turn for a minute. Misty Step is a spell many considered a must in its own right.

It's a blend of what I've experienced in Baldur's Gate 3 and what I expect players without experience in tabletop may experience. My statements are a reflection of the meta-game in BG3, not tabletop 5e. The wizard is the most versatile in tabletop, but with how frequent scrolls are a fighter can be just as versatile. With unlimited rest why use a cantrip when you can Rest-> Magic Missile -> Rest ?

Yeah sure occasionally misty step is used, and I'm tired of jumping. I shouldn't have to sacrifice how efficient the wizard is in combat to use other spells. And I don't think other players should either.

Do you enjoy wizard in the current meta-game? Do you think it could be more fun? Have an open-mind here.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
The problem with height advantage is, as I see it, twofold. One, that it grants advantage, a +5 bonus, which is a lot. +1 or +2 would be much more fitting. Two, that lower height also grants disadvantage on attacks to you, making it effectively +5 to hit and +5 to AC. Similarly to #1, changing it to +1 or +2 would be better.

Or just removing one of the bonuses and make you either get an attack or AC bonus from height (preferably +1 or +2 instead of advantage).
I agree, and I have suggested similar changes (for both height and flanking). This kind of adjustment will be forced upon Larian once they realize their virtually guaranteed flanking advantage have royally screwed Barbarians and their staple Reckless Attack (you gain advantage on attacks, but enemy gain advantage attacking you).

Advantage may be mathematically equivalent of a flat +5 attack bonus, but with two important caveats. When dealing with high AC enemies that you can hardly hit, a +5 flat bonus is oftentimes considerably better than advantage (the highest of two rolls). Secondly, flat bonuses stack and can be combined with advantage whereas advantage does not stack (Elven Accuracy racial feat that I would love to see implemented is the closest to an exception).

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Reading this thread is making me realize that I really should have just posted my thread detailing how all of the game’s mechanics come together to create a rather imbalanced combat system in this general section, instead of the suggestions and feedback section. After all, it appears there are people who don’t visit both sections of the forum.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=757307#Post757307

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
I agree, and I have suggested similar changes (for both height and flanking). This kind of adjustment will be forced upon Larian once they realize their virtually guaranteed flanking advantage have royally screwed Barbarians and their staple Reckless Attack (you gain advantage on attacks, but enemy gain advantage attacking you).

Ha, sorry to disagree with that sentiment, but I am pretty sure Larian will have no problem with Class abilities like Reckless Attack.
They will just change it to something like Double advantage or giving you one more attack or shoving the enemy across the whole map or making an animation that you kick them in the butt (literally), because that's what is super funny.

Sadly Larian just doesn't care for a balanced system, because apparently they think that would be mutually exclusive with their vision of fun gameplay.
And people like you and me have to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
It feels gimmicky because you have to do it every encounter because of Threatened. It's the in-game state, not the real world state. And I wouldn't want Star Wars interpretation of high ground in BG3 either xD

There has been some confusion regarding the conflation of higher ground advantage and threatened. We are largely in agreement, you just have the wrong culprit. I believe the reason you are threatened so often is that the AI so heavily prioritize low AC enemies. This can be mitigated by grabbing armor proficiencies or using Mage Armor, word on the interwebs is that the survival rate of Gale/Wizards is SIGNIFICANTLY increased (at the cost of the survival of the next lowest AC party member lol). The Wizard can build/buff himself to have the highest AC in the party when you get going with those spell slots using the likes of Blur (gives attackers disadvantage on attacks).

Quote
Do you enjoy wizard in the current meta-game? Do you think it could be more fun? Have an open-mind here.

To be honest, I haven't really played in over a month. Have "only" about 50 hours logged and much of that in the character creator. I'm a casual player and don't want to burn out on the game ^^. I have followed many streams/videos however, so imagine I have a broader experience than most. Will play more when significant changes come.

I did enjoy combat though, except for most of Larian's cheese. I never was a Wizard fan and didn't use Gale all that much. I played Warlocks and though fun, I imagine becoming a full-time Hex+Eldritch Blast spammer will sour quickly (add to that Hex is needlessly clunky implemented). Especially as other spellcasters really snowball and the Warlock lags behind. I refuse to believe Wizards can be nearly as lacking in versatility and unfun as Warlocks eventually will be.

Wizards already have access for Fire Bolt which is the only elemental trigger and this alone allows them accesses to Larian's cheesy fun like no other class. I think if you have problem with Wizards this is either tied to them not having started snowballing properly and/or how you play them (ie. sounds like Mage Armor and Jump before combat would be beneficial to you). Wizards have been heavily favored by Larian's "godfather", Swen, who purportedly is an avid Wizard fan. Unrestricted rest is a big one. Magic items such as The Sapphire Spark near doubles Magic Missile damage, and this has some nifty potential by level 10 Evocation Wizard when you can add your intelligence modifier in damage to each and every missile. Staff of Arcane Blessing is overpowered and a huge added incentive to seek higher ground (as if it wasn't already incentivized enough). Wizards tend to snowball starting out a bit subpar, but by level 5 taking quick strides into overpowered and never looking back. Sorcerers, when implemented, should have a bit more "personality" though if you like spells but find Wizards to "plain".

Last edited by Seraphael; 19/02/21 11:42 PM.
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We are largely in agreement, I just feel there is no wrong culprit in the discussion we had. Something needs to be done about both Backstab and the total benefits High Ground gives.

I've played wizard multiple times in different ways, I hope I don't burn myself out I'm at the 99th hour now xD I chose to take a break until patch 4 drops.
I've used Mage Armor and it doesn't help much, especially when the warlock has Mage Armor too, and Shadowheart is wearing Githyanki armor. Some fights enemies will choose to focus down mirror image and I don't know why.

Magic Missile is in a great spot, outside of some pathing issues. Shatter has some targeting issues, but I'm sure Larian is going to iron that out down the line.

As for Warlock, levels 1-4 in Baldur's Gate 3 feels pretty good and If Hex is streamlined it'll be even better. The sound and animation for Eldritch Blast doesn't get annoying, which is critical to keeping Eldritch Blast fun.

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Forgot to mention Shocking Grasp, if I remember correctly this is a touch attack and doesn't get disadvantage on attack rolls like ranged spell attacks in melee. According to D&D RAW it should in fact give you advantage vs anyone using metal armor (dunno if implemented like that in BG3 though). Could be an alternative if you have nowhere to run with your Wizard at lower levels.

Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
As for Warlock, levels 1-4 in Baldur's Gate 3 feels pretty good and If Hex is streamlined it'll be even better. The sound and animation for Eldritch Blast doesn't get annoying, which is critical to keeping Eldritch Blast fun.
Praying for that streamlining (want the curse secondary effect to be automated), or I likely won't consider Warlock as an option for my protagonist.

Last edited by Seraphael; 20/02/21 12:07 AM.
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Shocking grasp is in a catch-22 as well, it's usually:

An enemy that's been damaged before that is near the wizard and sitting with 4-6 HP. -> Magic Missile
The battle just started -> Misty Step or Jump/Disengage

I've started playthroughs with the intent to use Shocking Grasp, but it's hard to justify using it in most situations that occur in Early Access.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Forgot to mention Shocking Grasp, if I remember correctly this is a touch attack and doesn't get disadvantage on attack rolls like ranged spell attacks in melee. According to D&D RAW it should in fact give you advantage vs anyone using metal armor (dunno if implemented like that in BG3 though). Could be an alternative if you have nowhere to run with your Wizard at lower levels.

Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
As for Warlock, levels 1-4 in Baldur's Gate 3 feels pretty good and If Hex is streamlined it'll be even better. The sound and animation for Eldritch Blast doesn't get annoying, which is critical to keeping Eldritch Blast fun.
Praying for that streamlining (want the curse secondary effect to be automated), or I likely won't consider Warlock as an option for my protagonist.

Yes. Shocking Grasp is a melee cantrip and very useful to wizards. It's purpose was to allow wizards to escape while still doing damage. Advantage vs those wearing metal armor and if you hit, prevents reactions which also allows the wizard to flee without fear of opportunity attacks.

If course in BG3 you can just jump away...

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The main point of using Shocking Grasp is to apply the Shocked status, which prevents the enemy from taking reactions (which includes opportunity attacks) until the start of their turn. This would allow your character to move away safely without needing to blow a spell slot with Misty Step, for instance. Battle Mage wizard builds could consider using it to cancel other enemy reactions like Shield, assuming they don’t activate the shield against it to begin with. But BG3 doesn’t really have reaction skills at the moment, so that point is moot.

Granted, bonus action disengage means there’s pretty much no reason to use Shocking Grasp, unless you’re in the niche situation of really needing to use that bonus action to eat something or use a potion in the same turn instead. Or you have multiple ranged party members in opportunity attack range.

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Maybe they will tone down the advantage amounts via the difficulty settings in the finished game? we are of course playing on only one set difficulty currently..

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The 'use' of shocking grasp at the moment is that, after you fill the room with water, such as from your free casts of it from Rain-dancer, you can shocking grasp the puddle and stun-without-save an entire room of enemies. Soon you'll be able to do this with witch-bolt too.

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Originally Posted by Niara
The 'use' of shocking grasp at the moment is that, after you fill the room with water, such as from your free casts of it from Rain-dancer, you can shocking grasp the puddle and stun-without-save an entire room of enemies. Soon you'll be able to do this with witch-bolt too.

I had forgotten that was a thing.

I abused the hell out of that specific tactic (along with freezes too) in D:OS2 Tactician, and even then it was way harder to do it there on account of the armor system (though that game ran on cooldowns rather than spell slots too). I am not sure how I feel about wanting to do the same for BG3. On a fundamental level, it should bother me quite a bit, because we really shouldn't be bringing mechanics from one game series directly into another older established series in an almost 1:1 copy. If it did extra damage only? Fine. But stun is a bit much.

I say this as someone who still loves D:OS2 but recognizes its many balancing flaws. And seeing similar balancing flaws already crop up this early into BG3 with half the community and the developers themselves seemingly being rather unconcerned about it worries me.

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It bothers me. I'm irked that it didn't go away when they removed the other cantrip riders - but it didn't because they missed it, because it's not creating a surface on its own.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
As for Warlock, levels 1-4 in Baldur's Gate 3 feels pretty good and If Hex is streamlined it'll be even better. The sound and animation for Eldritch Blast doesn't get annoying, which is critical to keeping Eldritch Blast fun.

Agreed on warlock being very fun overall, though I feel like they're a bit lacking as a blaster class when everyone can nova so hard every single fight? That will probably just get worse too, but even now, there's not much point to eldritch blast when you have that magic missile necklace and a full set of spell slots every single fight. This is true for most spells though to be fair, I saw someone a while back showing that gear ends up making magic missile your best single target damage until disintegrate, and even then it's close.

Not sure what the answer is to that, though I guess it's at least one solution for coffeelock being so out of line with other casters lol

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by Niara
The 'use' of shocking grasp at the moment is that, after you fill the room with water, such as from your free casts of it from Rain-dancer, you can shocking grasp the puddle and stun-without-save an entire room of enemies. Soon you'll be able to do this with witch-bolt too.

I had forgotten that was a thing.

I abused the hell out of that specific tactic (along with freezes too) in D:OS2 Tactician, and even then it was way harder to do it there on account of the armor system (though that game ran on cooldowns rather than spell slots too). I am not sure how I feel about wanting to do the same for BG3. On a fundamental level, it should bother me quite a bit, because we really shouldn't be bringing mechanics from one game series directly into another older established series in an almost 1:1 copy. If it did extra damage only? Fine. But stun is a bit much.

I say this as someone who still loves D:OS2 but recognizes its many balancing flaws. And seeing similar balancing flaws already crop up this early into BG3 with half the community and the developers themselves seemingly being rather unconcerned about it worries me.

As someone who could never get into the D:O series
I feel that tactic, fits in this game perfectly though. In DnD/PF/etc thats the sort of resourceful thinking you look for in players and reward them for spotting, especially when you didnt think of the possibility. Finding creative things to do with spells, is DnD, so having it be possible in game is great.
And with rolls outside of combat and other inclusions, it looks like the game going forward will likely have creative rules for spells and abilities out of combat too.
Its only abuse if you choose to abuse it too. Like thats a player choice thing and in single player who cares and in multiplayer/co-op same as in table top, can talk it over with other players and agree how to go so I kinda feel its a no issue thing.

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I agree that that sort of effect definitely has a place in D&D, the problem becomes when that kind of trick becomes what the game is balanced around. When it becomes punishing to not be observant and pull off those tricks, then it stops being a case of telling others to just not do it, because not doing it means not engaging in the game the way it's designed to be played, which if you have to suggest that, is indicative of a potential problem with the game.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I agree that that sort of effect definitely has a place in D&D, the problem becomes when that kind of trick becomes what the game is balanced around. When it becomes punishing to not be observant and pull off those tricks, then it stops being a case of telling others to just not do it, because not doing it means not engaging in the game the way it's designed to be played, which if you have to suggest that, is indicative of a potential problem with the game.

Balance issues aside, the very existence of the Larian cheese is a negative if you prefer a more serious playstyle. You know you kind of engage in a self-nerf/fight with a handicap if you're not willing to indulge.

Shove is a fun "I-win-button" in many cases, but also so gimmicky it cheapens the game for those preferring a more serious playstyle. Pushing a creature that weighs near a ton (ie. the spider matriarch) like it was a feather is fun...and immersion breaking. And the fact only the player can bully the AI, feels artificial and more immersion breaking. Shove is brokenly overpowered as a bonus action and should at the very minimum become a standard action. Personally, I would like to see the option removed as is and remain as a magical effect through Mage Hand and Thunderwave (wands also). Balance and internal logic/realism would be restored.

Don't even get me started on throwing enemies at other enemies like they were stones flying across the screen. Again silly fun, but so silly it's immersion breaking besides unbalancing. Throwing boots is good for a laugh - once. All these "fun" small immersion negatives add up over time.

Pickpocketing in Larian games is likewise EXTREMELY gimmicky and overpowered. It entails no risk at all when you know what you do/can savescum, and is the best and easiest way to get loot and gold. And it has a similar negative effect even if you ignore the feature. A total screw you to any kind of risk vs. reward balancing mechanism. Because "fun".

Additional ways to remedy these issues can be to making the cheese come with a cost. More magical items/loot on bosses that are lost/broken when pushed down "bottomless" pits for instance. Items, particularly potions/scrolls, that can be destroyed by explosions/"barrelmancy". Pickpocketing is a harder cheese to balance, but Larian could stop making pickpocketing some super powerful magic and impose some level of realistic limitation (ie. size/weight and number). Or if they want to actually live up to the BG legacy, consider implementing a law/reputation system (where checks can be done even AFTER theft so the player won't be able to game/savescum the system as easily).

Buuut, when you find giant bulls climbing ladders "fun", I totally see there never will be resources for unfun realism.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Not quite accurate. The problem is that barrelmancy is not a cheat or an exploit. It is a mechanic that is intended by Larian,
I agree with you on priciple, that said in my playthrough of BG3 I didn't find barrels to be that prominent. I think one needs to go out of their way to abuse the system. Advantage with backstab or hight advantage is a plague, which overrides all other tactical considerations in combat.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I agree that that sort of effect definitely has a place in D&D, the problem becomes when that kind of trick becomes what the game is balanced around. When it becomes punishing to not be observant and pull off those tricks, then it stops being a case of telling others to just not do it, because not doing it means not engaging in the game the way it's designed to be played, which if you have to suggest that, is indicative of a potential problem with the game.

Balance issues aside, the very existence of the Larian cheese is a negative if you prefer a more serious playstyle. You know you kind of engage in a self-nerf/fight with a handicap if you're not willing to indulge.

Shove is a fun "I-win-button" in many cases, but also so gimmicky it cheapens the game for those preferring a more serious playstyle. Pushing a creature that weighs near a ton (ie. the spider matriarch) like it was a feather is fun...and immersion breaking. And the fact only the player can bully the AI, feels artificial and more immersion breaking. Shove is brokenly overpowered as a bonus action and should at the very minimum become a standard action. Personally, I would like to see the option removed as is and remain as a magical effect through Mage Hand and Thunderwave (wands also). Balance and internal logic/realism would be restored.

Don't even get me started on throwing enemies at other enemies like they were stones flying across the screen. Again silly fun, but so silly it's immersion breaking besides unbalancing. Throwing boots is good for a laugh - once. All these "fun" small immersion negatives add up over time.

Pickpocketing in Larian games is likewise EXTREMELY gimmicky and overpowered. It entails no risk at all when you know what you do/can savescum, and is the best and easiest way to get loot and gold. And it has a similar negative effect even if you ignore the feature. A total screw you to any kind of risk vs. reward balancing mechanism. Because "fun".

Additional ways to remedy these issues can be to making the cheese come with a cost. More magical items/loot on bosses that are lost/broken when pushed down "bottomless" pits for instance. Items, particularly potions/scrolls, that can be destroyed by explosions/"barrelmancy". Pickpocketing is a harder cheese to balance, but Larian could stop making pickpocketing some super powerful magic and impose some level of realistic limitation (ie. size/weight and number). Or if they want to actually live up to the BG legacy, consider implementing a law/reputation system (where checks can be done even AFTER theft so the player won't be able to game/savescum the system as easily).

Buuut, when you find giant bulls climbing ladders "fun", I totally see there never will be resources for unfun realism.
Agreed. Some occasional things could be considered creative but using it all the time is ridiculous. Some of it is just dumb and I am not a fan of this at all. I don't care if it is in there for other people to use but making it the expected playstyle is awful. The game needs to be balanced around less gimmicks. I also don't even care if there are settings to toggle this stuff, but right now it is ruining balance and immersion for a lot of us.

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