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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Topper
Not a fan of Bulls and bears that can climb ladders but its fantasy. Anything goes. Right? I still have hope. Some will love it, others will weep. For the latter, another dev will surface and fulfill their dreams.

That was the final blow.

This game is not supposed to be taken seriously.
Of course, if you google bear climbs ladder, you can find video of actual bears climbing actual ladders ... Just because it's not something they often have occasion to do, doesn't make it fantastical.

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Fun fact, I check one game news site today where there was news about patch 4. And comments was "how cool! wow!" and everything like that.

So I really don't understand what kind of "community" we are talking about. In fact, reviews in steam also "very positive". People really like what Larian does, and there are a lot of these people, they just don't sit on this forum.


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
Hilarian #756964 18/02/21 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Hilarian
I do like how people use words like "we" or "community" though. Even the forum or discord itself are barely hundreds from active users while the game has over a million players. Now, the issue is that you could add your own opinions about what needed to be changed about the game but that doesn't mean that the developers think it's something that should be changed or could be changed based on time and resources. First and foremost, you are just a consumer, not a stockholder. What you want added is just one of the voices, even in the forum, with hundreds of other suggestions. If you quit because the game doesn't incorporate what you think is important then it is more on you. There is a difference between demand and request, and unless you're a stockholder, I don't see the company obligated to do anything.

Sure, we may not be the majority, but "we" and "community" is clearly used in relation to long-term RPG fans. Whether that be fans of Larian's prior games, fans of Baldur's Gate 1+2, fans of Final Fantasy, fans of Fire Emblem, Fans of Dungeons and Dragons, fans of Dragon Age, fans of Pokemon, fans of Dragon Quest, etc...

We understand that the average consumer loves Skyrim and GTA V, but what that doesn't mean our opinions are invalid.

Truth is that if the average consumer plays enough RPGs they usually have analogous opinions to ours. Truth is Skyrim did have some great ideas that went on to inspire Nintendo to make Breath of the Wild.

Whether or not Larian is going to value our opinions as dollars, our opinions is how Baldur's Gate 3 will be remembered. After the dust settles it's only RPG fans who will purchase the game down the road.

When a large number of long-term, turn-based RPG fans express their concerns of the same issues, it matters.

Sure Larian may get a nice profit over cut-scenes, story, and romance options... but the legacy matters too.

Look at Bethesda, they ignored their fans and had to sell themselves to Microsoft. Look at CD Projekt Red, they told themselves they knew better and now are facing lawsuits from fans and investors. Look at BHVR, they rolled out a UI that 90 percent of active forum members said they hated.... Now they're using resources to change the UI again while still trying to fix the insane amount of bugs they added to the game.

Yes, we all know we are a minority. But the forum members here have all been passionate and have all cared about Baldur's Gate 3 being a great game versus a game we'll all forget about after a year. (In general).

I'd rather state my opinion and not be heard than have said nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I do like how people use words like "we" or "community" though. Even the forum or discord itself are barely hundreds from active users while the game has over a million players. Now, the issue is that you could add your own opinions about what needed to be changed about the game but that doesn't mean that the developers think it's something that should be changed or could be changed based on time and resources. First and foremost, you are just a consumer, not a stockholder. What you want added is just one of the voices, even in the forum, with hundreds of other suggestions. If you quit because the game doesn't incorporate what you think is important then it is more on you. There is a difference between demand and request, and unless you're a stockholder, I don't see the company obligated to do anything.

Sure, we may not be the majority, but "we" and "community" is clearly used in relation to long-term RPG fans. Whether that be fans of Larian's prior games, fans of Baldur's Gate 1+2, fans of Final Fantasy, fans of Fire Emblem, Fans of Dungeons and Dragons, fans of Dragon Age, fans of Pokemon, fans of Dragon Quest, etc...

We understand that the average consumer loves Skyrim and GTA V, but what that doesn't mean our opinions are invalid.

Truth is that if the average consumer plays enough RPGs they usually have analogous opinions to ours. Truth is Skyrim did have some great ideas that went on to inspire Nintendo to make Breath of the Wild.

Whether or not Larian is going to value our opinions as dollars, our opinions is how Baldur's Gate 3 will be remembered. After the dust settles it's only RPG fans who will purchase the game down the road.

When a large number of long-term, turn-based RPG fans express their concerns of the same issues, it matters.

Sure Larian may get a nice profit over cut-scenes, story, and romance options... but the legacy matters too.

Look at Bethesda, they ignored their fans and had to sell themselves to Microsoft. Look at CD Projekt Red, they told themselves they knew better and now are facing lawsuits from fans and investors. Look at BHVR, they rolled out a UI that 90 percent of active forum members said they hated.... Now they're using resources to change the UI again while still trying to fix the insane amount of bugs they added to the game.

Yes, we all know we are a minority. But the forum members here have all been passionate and have all cared about Baldur's Gate 3 being a great game versus a game we'll all forget about after a year. (In general).

I'd rather state my opinion and not be heard than have said nothing at all.

Even here on the forum, there are people who like what Larian is doing. And you think we're not Dragon Age fans? Not fans of PoE? Or other RPG games? No, we, just like you, love RPG games. But maybe we just have different tastes and requirements for them?

No need to speak for all "fan base of RPG games".

Because it's not about everyone, you're still under the delusion that Larian will lose all the RPG fans just because they're moving away from tradition, taking some risks to show something new. Also, the situation of CD Projekt Red was quite different and it is not very appropriate to mention it here. The fact that Larian gave you early access already puts them on another level. Because CD Projekt Red called their early access "release".


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
Nyloth #756970 18/02/21 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Fun fact, I check one game news site today where there was news about patch 4. And comments was "how cool! wow!" and everything like that.
Breaking news: people with superficial understanding, limited knowledge and no direct experience of what's going on an Early Access/closed beta are easily impressed by vague reporting about the novelties.

What did you expect, a bunch of random observer that didn't spend a single minute in EA having strong opinions about gameplay mechanics, UI or controls?

Last edited by Tuco; 18/02/21 07:55 AM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Well it is not none of my business true. However I would be very surprised if Steam agrees to pay back. None of would be valid in my book those claims to pay back in this case.

This is not even near as bad as Cyberpunk 2077 release was. On top of that this is ALPHA and not full release date. We are not talking about a horde of bugs that makes the game horrible.

I paid 60 euro for this game and game developers deserve that money.

As for claims why not all areas released and max level? Early access was only about Act 1 and max level 4. Nothing else has been promised beyond that. Well yes they have not fully released all areas of Act 1 yet that is true. At least we got one more class last time the Druid class which is great.

Well I do feel that in some things the game could be more close to DD rules, but the game is playable to me.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I do like how people use words like "we" or "community" though. Even the forum or discord itself are barely hundreds from active users while the game has over a million players. Now, the issue is that you could add your own opinions about what needed to be changed about the game but that doesn't mean that the developers think it's something that should be changed or could be changed based on time and resources. First and foremost, you are just a consumer, not a stockholder. What you want added is just one of the voices, even in the forum, with hundreds of other suggestions. If you quit because the game doesn't incorporate what you think is important then it is more on you. There is a difference between demand and request, and unless you're a stockholder, I don't see the company obligated to do anything.

Sure, we may not be the majority, but "we" and "community" is clearly used in relation to long-term RPG fans. Whether that be fans of Larian's prior games, fans of Baldur's Gate 1+2, fans of Final Fantasy, fans of Fire Emblem, Fans of Dungeons and Dragons, fans of Dragon Age, fans of Pokemon, fans of Dragon Quest, etc...

We understand that the average consumer loves Skyrim and GTA V, but what that doesn't mean our opinions are invalid.

Truth is that if the average consumer plays enough RPGs they usually have analogous opinions to ours. Truth is Skyrim did have some great ideas that went on to inspire Nintendo to make Breath of the Wild.

Whether or not Larian is going to value our opinions as dollars, our opinions is how Baldur's Gate 3 will be remembered. After the dust settles it's only RPG fans who will purchase the game down the road.

When a large number of long-term, turn-based RPG fans express their concerns of the same issues, it matters.

Sure Larian may get a nice profit over cut-scenes, story, and romance options... but the legacy matters too.

Look at Bethesda, they ignored their fans and had to sell themselves to Microsoft. Look at CD Projekt Red, they told themselves they knew better and now are facing lawsuits from fans and investors. Look at BHVR, they rolled out a UI that 90 percent of active forum members said they hated.... Now they're using resources to change the UI again while still trying to fix the insane amount of bugs they added to the game.

Yes, we all know we are a minority. But the forum members here have all been passionate and have all cared about Baldur's Gate 3 being a great game versus a game we'll all forget about after a year. (In general).

I'd rather state my opinion and not be heard than have said nothing at all.
Large number? I don't know where you get that from, dozens of posters from the forum? It seems to be very well liked and have very positive reviews overall on steam. I don't think you can speak for long-term RPG and turn-based fans as they all have things they look for when playing the game. I am a big fan of the genre, and it doesn't seem to apply to me. You clump all of these series and fans together when I don't see any common ground where certain changes would satisfy everyone, and that's the bottom line. One thing about the internet is that people will complain about everything, and the people who are satisfied would not voice it as much as those who are dissatisfied, and if you make drastic changes, it could potentially turn away people who were already happy with the direction. Everyone can voice their opinions but it would be hundreds of opinions and views, no one said you can't voice your opinion, but that doesn't mean it would be implemented. They are heard, but there's no way they could implement what every poster wanted. As people already pointed out, a lot of changes were made throughout the game and some were also concerns brought up by other posters, but the OP got upset because things he wanted didn't get implemented didn't mean that he wasn't heard. As far as requests go, some would be very time consuming, some would go against their vision, and some could potentially turn other fans away. Some of the suggestions I have read in term of gameplay would seem bothersome. That's what it is when you voice a suggestion. You are heard but just don't expect it to be implemented or even mentioned with how many suggestions out there. It's still up to the developers if they see a suggestion would be worth implementing.

At the end of the day, no one hate money, that's why certain genre being a trend with each generation because game developers go where the money is. If gamers want a particular type of gameplay, game companies would pursue it. Certain style of gameplay become obscured because not many players want to play it. There are certain nostalgic factors with older games, but there's a reason why newer games don't play like that anymore. That's not to say it's gone though as indie games are still catering to those niche.

Last edited by Hilarian; 18/02/21 08:09 AM.
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There's something about the economy of video game reviews that I don't get. It seems that it's mostly split into two groups -- those who enthusiastically parrot the talking points provided by the company "I'm really excited about ______ "and the negative-for-clicks "Why _____ sucks".

I'm not a big gamer so perhaps there's source I don't know about but I'm surprised that there is isn't a go to source for reviews and reactions without forced enthusiasm or click baity negativity.

Tuco #756977 18/02/21 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Fun fact, I check one game news site today where there was news about patch 4. And comments was "how cool! wow!" and everything like that.
Breaking news: people with superficial understanding, limited knowledge and no direct experience of what's going on an Early Access/closed beta are easily impressed by vague reporting about the novelties.

What did you expect, a bunch of random observer that didn't spend a single minute in EA having strong opinions about gameplay mechanics, UI or controls?

Seems like game journalists are just as good at ignoring these forums as Larian is.

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It all comes down to this :

EA or not, BG2 is a superior game to BG3 right now. BY A HUGE MARGIN.
Those fans who don't think so have their heads deep into Larians axe.

Out of respect for the FEW Larian team creatives that love the previous Baldurs gate games, I will not issue a refund and pray for a miracle.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 18/02/21 08:18 AM.
Nyloth #756981 18/02/21 08:11 AM
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Honestly weird reading all this talk about the silent millions. Larian can't get 10k likes on twitter for the EA trailer, and the cinematic trailer on youtube got barely 1m views after almost 2 years. Seems like people like the shiny new thing - not even all that much - and not Larian.

Which is understandable, this is their first mainstream project, but alse makes it pretty hysterical that the one change they wouldn't have done otherwise, until now, (in the EA, not crowdfund gig) is making one of their characters smile more. Guess next one will be buff elf romance. If it isn't already there for a druid, that is.

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Objectively BG3 might be a fun game. I'm certain many people will like it. For me though its definitely not even close to what they advertised and it follows DOS2 designs that I loathed. I can't believe how I bad I fell for their 5e-announcement forgetting how much I disliked DOS2... in any case they showed time and time again that they don't care about 5e.

They simply don't. They don't bother to keep the balancing and come up with utterly BS excuses with 'video games CAN be different therefore it CAN'T work as in the TT'. Not only didn't they do anything to fix previously created balancing issues regarding action economy, now they added another broken Druid ontop and used their hype video to show how the game is suposed to be played by exploiting rest, knowing combats and chessing every mechanic they added.


So yeah, I'm certain people will like the game. As much as I disliked DOS2, there are a ton of people who liked it. Does this make BG3 a good BG successor or like claimed a good 5e implementation? Nope. Not the slightest bit. And the annoying part for me is that those were the reasons I was willing to pay full price for an EA, while now I see that those, contrary to their own statements, are not priorities at all for their development.

Last edited by biomag; 18/02/21 08:21 AM.
Imryll #756985 18/02/21 08:28 AM
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Those expectations will set you up for disappointment every time. We're coming down from the disaster that was Cyberpunk, and I think that might have recalibrated my faith in some developers as "special". We have seen some responsiveness from Larian based on forum feedback, so I will remain patient for now, and if the touches I would very much like to see are not heeded -- then at least there is strong storytelling and interesting characters behind the cheese.

Besides, for every person critical of "Larian cheese", there are 5 more casual observers who go; "Wowsies! I p00sh badie down the chasm for auto-win ROFLELOLZ!!!". And I can't say it's NOT fun either, just so gimmicky and repeatable it kind of cheapens the game if you have any measurable appreciation for balance and D&D. We had the early argument that BG3 was in reality DOS3 where people questioned Larian's commitment to a darker more serious fantasy, I thought of this criticism as premature, but I have to admit that in some sense this game manages actually being more "DOS" than DOS2 ever was.

Originally Posted by Imryll
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Topper
Not a fan of Bulls and bears that can climb ladders but its fantasy. Anything goes. Right? I still have hope. Some will love it, others will weep. For the latter, another dev will surface and fulfill their dreams.

That was the final blow.

This game is not supposed to be taken seriously.
Of course, if you google bear climbs ladder, you can find video of actual bears climbing actual ladders ... Just because it's not something they often have occasion to do, doesn't make it fantastical.
Waiting for you to explain the physics of bulls climbing ladders since you argued out of realism (that a super-sized 1 ton heavy polar bear can climb a spindly ladder) just then lol.

Some say it's a quality of life change and I would tend to agree, but it's also another lackluster implementation that challenges the suspension of disbelief which in turn harms immersion. If ever so slightly. Why did not Larian simply make the wild shape return to humanoid form automatically whenever climbing ladders and turn back to beast form when finished (w/o this affecting number of wild shapes)? Would likely satisfy both camps of realism and convenience better, and Larian would have saved resources spent on failing to make convincing animations of huge beasts climbing ladders. These kinds of design decisions makes me question if they ever get around to addressing some of the core issues a vocal part of the community has.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Honestly weird reading all this talk about the silent millions. Larian can't get 10k likes on twitter for the EA trailer, and the cinematic trailer on youtube got barely 1m views after almost 2 years. Seems like people like the shiny new thing - not even all that much - and not Larian.

Which is understandable, this is their first mainstream project, but alse makes it pretty hysterical that the one change they wouldn't have done otherwise, until now, (in the EA, not crowdfund gig) is making one of their characters smile more. Guess next one will be buff elf romance. If it isn't already there for a druid, that is.

That's about marketing. I'll be happy if they spend money on the game, not on marketing (like CD Projekt Red lol). This is how social networks and algorithms work. So all those likes don't really matter.

It would be very revealing if they had a lot of dislikes and few likes (hello blizzard), it would show a negative reaction from the community.


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
Nyloth #756988 18/02/21 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I do like how people use words like "we" or "community" though. Even the forum or discord itself are barely hundreds from active users while the game has over a million players. Now, the issue is that you could add your own opinions about what needed to be changed about the game but that doesn't mean that the developers think it's something that should be changed or could be changed based on time and resources. First and foremost, you are just a consumer, not a stockholder. What you want added is just one of the voices, even in the forum, with hundreds of other suggestions. If you quit because the game doesn't incorporate what you think is important then it is more on you. There is a difference between demand and request, and unless you're a stockholder, I don't see the company obligated to do anything.

Sure, we may not be the majority, but "we" and "community" is clearly used in relation to long-term RPG fans. Whether that be fans of Larian's prior games, fans of Baldur's Gate 1+2, fans of Final Fantasy, fans of Fire Emblem, Fans of Dungeons and Dragons, fans of Dragon Age, fans of Pokemon, fans of Dragon Quest, etc...

We understand that the average consumer loves Skyrim and GTA V, but what that doesn't mean our opinions are invalid.

Truth is that if the average consumer plays enough RPGs they usually have analogous opinions to ours. Truth is Skyrim did have some great ideas that went on to inspire Nintendo to make Breath of the Wild.

Whether or not Larian is going to value our opinions as dollars, our opinions is how Baldur's Gate 3 will be remembered. After the dust settles it's only RPG fans who will purchase the game down the road.

When a large number of long-term, turn-based RPG fans express their concerns of the same issues, it matters.

Sure Larian may get a nice profit over cut-scenes, story, and romance options... but the legacy matters too.

Look at Bethesda, they ignored their fans and had to sell themselves to Microsoft. Look at CD Projekt Red, they told themselves they knew better and now are facing lawsuits from fans and investors. Look at BHVR, they rolled out a UI that 90 percent of active forum members said they hated.... Now they're using resources to change the UI again while still trying to fix the insane amount of bugs they added to the game.

Yes, we all know we are a minority. But the forum members here have all been passionate and have all cared about Baldur's Gate 3 being a great game versus a game we'll all forget about after a year. (In general).

I'd rather state my opinion and not be heard than have said nothing at all.

Even here on the forum, there are people who like what Larian is doing. And you think we're not Dragon Age fans? Not fans of PoE? Or other RPG games? No, we, just like you, love RPG games. But maybe we just have different tastes and requirements for them?

No need to speak for all "fan base of RPG games".

Because it's not about everyone, you're still under the delusion that Larian will lose all the RPG fans just because they're moving away from tradition, taking some risks to show something new. Also, the situation of CD Projekt Red was quite different and it is not very appropriate to mention it here. The fact that Larian gave you early access already puts them on another level. Because CD Projekt Red called their early access "release".
What is your intent with this post? I have never denied that you like RPGs and I have never said that Larian would lose fans by "moving away form tradition". My feedback with the game actually has nothing to do with tradition.

CD Projekt Red has multiple lawsuits for good reason. Lawyers only act when they can profit, they don't act in profitless situations. In any given lawsuit, lawyers are the winner. The good news is that Larian is not CD Projekt Red. Cyberpunk 2077 is a perfect example of why lawyers exist. It doesn't matter how many cutscenes with Keanu Reeves you have, gamers want to play a game.

Is it really that difficult to understand that some gamers want combat to be fun? Is it really that hard to understand that some gamers want a UI that is easy to use?

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Originally Posted by Lunar Dante
Originally Posted by Ramonster
Farewell my friend, try to understand that the world doesn't revolve around yourself next time, maybe?

What is this comment ? It is a shame.
We are many many here ignored by Larian on the same topics for months.

You may think your many, but in the grand scheme of things, the number of players, the number of forum members, and the number of players that never even bother with the forums. You are really a vocal minority. I have spent the last couple days reading the forums, and it seems to be a large number of posts, by a small group of people. Posting over and over and over. Which don't get me wrong, is very common in game forums. And every one, they all claim the are "speaking for the community"....

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Fun fact, I check one game news site today where there was news about patch 4. And comments was "how cool! wow!" and everything like that.

So I really don't understand what kind of "community" we are talking about. In fact, reviews in steam also "very positive". People really like what Larian does, and there are a lot of these people, they just don't sit on this forum.

Looks like they don't care about Baldur's Gate as a series - the majority of them could is too young to have played the original games. I had a realization the other day that nobody uses online forums anymore.


The way Larian manages party movement is dreadful
Nyloth #756996 18/02/21 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Honestly weird reading all this talk about the silent millions. Larian can't get 10k likes on twitter for the EA trailer, and the cinematic trailer on youtube got barely 1m views after almost 2 years. Seems like people like the shiny new thing - not even all that much - and not Larian.

Which is understandable, this is their first mainstream project, but alse makes it pretty hysterical that the one change they wouldn't have done otherwise, until now, (in the EA, not crowdfund gig) is making one of their characters smile more. Guess next one will be buff elf romance. If it isn't already there for a druid, that is.

That's about marketing. I'll be happy if they spend money on the game, not on marketing (like CD Projekt Red lol). This is how social networks and algorithms work. So all those likes don't really matter.

It would be very revealing if they had a lot of dislikes and few likes (hello blizzard), it would show a negative reaction from the community.

Not to mention, I think it has become extremely obvious between comic book sales taking a dump, and other media. That what is popular on Twitter is by no means some kind of accurate reflection on what the majority of the public thinks. The Majority of people, don't even bother with Twitter. It seems to be a useless tool, for people who have way to much time on their hands, with an overblown opinion of how important their thoughts matter lol. It cracks me up when I see the "Oh it is not doing well on Twitter, so of course it has to be bad" argument.

I have seen the negative effects on a game, and a population of the game, when the developers start to meet demands of the "majority" or "we the community" of forum posters as some reflection on what the true majority of players think, and totally bombed the population. I mean after they basically made a MMO a single player on the recommendation of "what the players want" from the forums, it in fact was not what people wanted, and the long term subscribers bailed leaving only the people that MAY sub for a month or two at a time to catch up on story. That is just one example.

Don't get me wrong, I believe feedback is essential, but trying to dictate who a developer is going to deliver a product to millions is just never going to be a serious transaction.

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Sad to read that but I can understand...

This stream was very dissapointing. Looks like they just don't care about the core mechanics of the game.

It was fun to spend hours and hours trying to gather feedback and suggest things to finally realise they just don't give a fuck.

This forum is just another joke.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 18/02/21 09:28 AM.
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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
You may think your many, but in the grand scheme of things, the number of players, the number of forum members, and the number of players that never even bother with the forums. You are really a vocal minority. I have spent the last couple days reading the forums, and it seems to be a large number of posts, by a small group of people. Posting over and over and over. Which don't get me wrong, is very common in game forums. And every one, they all claim the are "speaking for the community"....

The number of people isn't the problem. You should look into sample sizes for opinion polling.

As long as the sample is sufficiently representative you can make very accurate predictions with very few people. There are calculators for determining sample sizes for polls (i.e. https://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm). For a population of 5.000.000 and a confidence Level of 99% you only need a sample of about 2000 people!

2000 people might be a vocal minority or they might be an accurate representation of 5.000.000 people. It all depends on how good the sample is.

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