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Scribe #757128 18/02/21 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Scribe
Exactly. So truly, if I am able to, I'll just remove everything I can and get closer to what I want, but my point is, Larian is no more 'balancing' around their mechanical uhhh unique system, than they are a pure 5e implementation.

This isn't a competitive esport.
This is in my opinion, the best route for everyone involved to take. Larian has made it clear they want to make the game that they consider to be enjoyable, which will follow their own interpretation of what enjoyable is. From my PoV that means that the most important things to focus on are the things that we can't fix with mods. There are lots of mechanical changes I would like, as well as changes to the game's economy (decluttering), but those are things that can be fixed with mods. What I don't know is, can things like the awful camera or the party selection be fixed, because if not, those should be a high priority.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by CopperCrate
Well in PFH2 Larian DID go to the trouble of getting a PnP designer to explain that video games and tabletop are different things. They're at least hearing y'all. Maybe not listening, though.
... and this explanation still falls short though, as Solasta is implementing the core mechanics pretty much RAW, and the combat specially is fantastic and not subject to the criticism that BG3 is facing.
Larian said they can't implement, this is not true. Which means they can, but don't want to.

I looked up Solesta, and it has its own problems as well. Such as pre-determined rolls etc. It is not some "God" standard to compare too.

You can turn that off. They are working hard to allow the player to custom tailor the settings, difficulties and custom rules.

It isn't "god" standard but compared to BG3 it's like a demigod.

Tuco #757130 18/02/21 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by fylimar
I so want to like this post. I was contemplating, how to respond to the heated debates, that are going on right now in this forum, but you said it perfectly.
I so fucking don't.
It boils down to the good old "You're just a niche minority" you see thrown around on any dedicated community.
Except the minority is once again the one with familiarity with the topic being discussed and the direct experience on what they are commenting about.

Yes, but knowledge of 5e rules do not translate to experience with building a mass produced computer RPG that will appeal to a broad range of audiences. A company is not going to cut their leg out from under them, and limit the player appeal to the largest number of future purchasers. There is only so much you can expect them to "bend a knee" to D&D and 5e players. I think that is what you are missing. I am sure you probably are a well educated person in regards to D&D and 5e, but the majority of people are not (since D&D is a niche community to begin with). Most players do not care that you can use a jump button, or grenades, or explosive arrows etc. They want a loose translation that brings in the history and characters of BG and WOTC, with a modern twist.

Lisentia #757131 18/02/21 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Lisentia
Just to toss some information into this discussion -

According to the BG3 Steam Store Page, there have been a total of ~32,000 reviews and ~1200 recent reviews. Of those reviews, enough are considered positive by the Steam metrics to warrant being labeled as Very Positive.

In conclusion, I'm not sure that the anecdotal accusations or confirmation bias is warranted to claim any one is part of a vocal minority or majority.
it als odropped from 88% positive on average to 85% positive.

Given that a lot of players are still in their honeymoon phase is NOT the most flattering of the results.
Basically any big production that isn't absolute trash or that didn't piss off enough people to be focus of massive review bombing in some peculiar episode can aspire to comparable or better ratings on Steam.
DOS 2 had a 96% positive rating at some point and it's still at 94% today with recent reviews.

Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Yes, but knowledge of 5e rules do not translate to experience with building a mass produced computer RPG.
I wasn't even talking specifically about knowledge of the 5th edition at all. I have hardly any myself.
Just understanding of mechanics in a game you play and their large scale implications.
So I really don't know what to do with the rest of your tirade built over a wrong assumption.

Let's take the rest system for instance. Do you people think that perfect adherence to the 5th edition is the problem with it? Or maybe more the fact that is such a poorly structured system to the point of not even feeling like a system at all, but rather some sort of clumsy leftover?

Last edited by Tuco; 18/02/21 05:11 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Lisentia #757137 18/02/21 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Lisentia
Just to toss some information into this discussion -

According to the BG3 Steam Store Page, there have been a total of ~32,000 reviews and ~1200 recent reviews. Of those reviews, enough are considered positive by the Steam metrics to warrant being labeled as Very Positive.

In conclusion, I'm not sure that the anecdotal accusations or confirmation bias is warranted to claim any one is part of a vocal minority or majority.

I agree with you. We were also encouraged by this very forum to leave a review which I did too. It was positive as I really like the game. Honestly in the beginning I wasn't expecting that much from the game, but when I played it (~70 hours in EA now) I realized it offers so much especially compared to other games which pretended to be RPGs (like this parody Cyberpunk 2077 for example).

One more thing is that this forum is really low populated and most of the players do not even come here which btw might be first because the game is in EA still and second - people don't usually make great effort to comment about something they like. They just play it.

For me personally the Steam reviews are honest and proper enough representation of the situation.

Sharp #757140 18/02/21 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharp
Games are designed so that people "struggle" and then they overcome that difficulty, when in reality there was never any difficulty at all. Its all an elaborately orchestrated trick. I cannot think of a single RPG I have played that could not be soloed, provided the game did not force party members onto you.
Well, sure. This is something I argued myself in the past: you can't balance a game's difficulty over fringe, overly-optimized strategies.
But no one should make the opposite mistake of thinking that any degree of challenge is going to be detrimental to the appreciation of their game.

In the DOS 2 post-mortem I posted few pages ago in answer to another user you hear the man himself, Swen Vincke, pointing out that they made some mistakes with the difficulty curve in DOS 2 and that led to LOADS of user reviews, forum posts, etc, complaining that they were quickly over-leveling all the content and the game became boring.

You shouldn't fine tune for speedrunners and pro-players, but you should definitely keep in mind that at least the RESEMBLANCE of a challenge must be there to not bore most of your audience.
Incidentally the same part of your audience that is most likely to stick with your products rather than giving you a 10 out of 10 on Metacritic, play 30 minutes and move on to the next popular thing.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Tuco #757141 18/02/21 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Sharp
Games are designed so that people "struggle" and then they overcome that difficulty, when in reality there was never any difficulty at all. Its all an elaborately orchestrated trick. I cannot think of a single RPG I have played that could not be soloed, provided the game did not force party members onto you.
Well, sure. This is something I argued myself in the past: you can't balance a game's difficulty over fringe, overly-optimized strategies.
But no one should make the opposite mistake of thinking that any degree of challenge is going to be detrimental to the appreciation of their game.

In the DOS 2 post-mortem I posted few pages ago in answer to another user you hear the man himself, Swen Vincke, pointing out that they made some mistakes with the difficulty curve in DOS 2 and that led to LOADS of user reviews, forum posts, etc, complaining that they were quickly over-leveling all the content and the game became boring.

You shouldn't fine tune for speedrunners and pro-players, but you should definitely keep in mind that at least the RESEMBLANCE of a challenge must be there to not bore most of your audience.
Incidentally the same part of your audience that is most likely to stick with your products rather than giving you a 10 out of 10 on Metacritic, play 30 minutes and move on to the next popular thing.
I absolutely agree there and its why I said that you need to be able to create the illusion of difficulty. Some game designers go about it in different ways to others. I remember 1 game designer that stated that in their game, the last 10% of the HP bar was actually 90% of your HP, so players would very quickly "reach" low HP and feel threatened, even though they still had most of their HP left.

Tuco #757145 18/02/21 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco
I wasn't even talking specifically about knowledge of the 5th edition at all. I have hardly any myself.
Just understanding of mechanics in a game you play and their large scale implications.
So I really don't know what to do with the rest of your tirade built over a wrong assumption.

Let's take the rest system for instance. Do you people think that perfect adherence to the 5th edition is the problem with it? Or maybe more the fact that is such a poorly structured system to the point of not even feeling like a system at all, but rather some sort of clumsy leftover?

Ding. I'd also add the travel system and the approval system. Dunno why they even tried to explain the former, it makes things even dumber, while the latter i hope is just a placeholder. Companions being at very high or excellent after one area and, like, one week is just weird. Ludonarrative dissonance, really, considering how they act.

Not gonna mention the whole 'chats in camp' system because that's just too bad to be the final thing.

Topper #757150 18/02/21 05:52 PM
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Undead hook horrors and minotaurs can climb at least some of the ladders, but my Ranger's poor widdle wolfie cannot. Eh.

Hilarian #757160 18/02/21 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Hilarian
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I do like how people use words like "we" or "community" though. Even the forum or discord itself are barely hundreds from active users while the game has over a million players. Now, the issue is that you could add your own opinions about what needed to be changed about the game but that doesn't mean that the developers think it's something that should be changed or could be changed based on time and resources. First and foremost, you are just a consumer, not a stockholder. What you want added is just one of the voices, even in the forum, with hundreds of other suggestions. If you quit because the game doesn't incorporate what you think is important then it is more on you. There is a difference between demand and request, and unless you're a stockholder, I don't see the company obligated to do anything.

Sure, we may not be the majority, but "we" and "community" is clearly used in relation to long-term RPG fans. Whether that be fans of Larian's prior games, fans of Baldur's Gate 1+2, fans of Final Fantasy, fans of Fire Emblem, Fans of Dungeons and Dragons, fans of Dragon Age, fans of Pokemon, fans of Dragon Quest, etc...

We understand that the average consumer loves Skyrim and GTA V, but what that doesn't mean our opinions are invalid.

Truth is that if the average consumer plays enough RPGs they usually have analogous opinions to ours. Truth is Skyrim did have some great ideas that went on to inspire Nintendo to make Breath of the Wild.

Whether or not Larian is going to value our opinions as dollars, our opinions is how Baldur's Gate 3 will be remembered. After the dust settles it's only RPG fans who will purchase the game down the road.

When a large number of long-term, turn-based RPG fans express their concerns of the same issues, it matters.

Sure Larian may get a nice profit over cut-scenes, story, and romance options... but the legacy matters too.

Look at Bethesda, they ignored their fans and had to sell themselves to Microsoft. Look at CD Projekt Red, they told themselves they knew better and now are facing lawsuits from fans and investors. Look at BHVR, they rolled out a UI that 90 percent of active forum members said they hated.... Now they're using resources to change the UI again while still trying to fix the insane amount of bugs they added to the game.

Yes, we all know we are a minority. But the forum members here have all been passionate and have all cared about Baldur's Gate 3 being a great game versus a game we'll all forget about after a year. (In general).

I'd rather state my opinion and not be heard than have said nothing at all.
Large number? I don't know where you get that from, dozens of posters from the forum? It seems to be very well liked and have very positive reviews overall on steam. I don't think you can speak for long-term RPG and turn-based fans as they all have things they look for when playing the game. I am a big fan of the genre, and it doesn't seem to apply to me. You clump all of these series and fans together when I don't see any common ground where certain changes would satisfy everyone, and that's the bottom line. One thing about the internet is that people will complain about everything, and the people who are satisfied would not voice it as much as those who are dissatisfied, and if you make drastic changes, it could potentially turn away people who were already happy with the direction. Everyone can voice their opinions but it would be hundreds of opinions and views, no one said you can't voice your opinion, but that doesn't mean it would be implemented. They are heard, but there's no way they could implement what every poster wanted. As people already pointed out, a lot of changes were made throughout the game and some were also concerns brought up by other posters, but the OP got upset because things he wanted didn't get implemented didn't mean that he wasn't heard. As far as requests go, some would be very time consuming, some would go against their vision, and some could potentially turn other fans away. Some of the suggestions I have read in term of gameplay would seem bothersome. That's what it is when you voice a suggestion. You are heard but just don't expect it to be implemented or even mentioned with how many suggestions out there. It's still up to the developers if they see a suggestion would be worth implementing.

At the end of the day, no one hate money, that's why certain genre being a trend with each generation because game developers go where the money is. If gamers want a particular type of gameplay, game companies would pursue it. Certain style of gameplay become obscured because not many players want to play it. There are certain nostalgic factors with older games, but there's a reason why newer games don't play like that anymore. That's not to say it's gone though as indie games are still catering to those niche.
Your statement " First and foremost, you are just a consumer, not a stockholder." is ridiculous. We're in a forum for Larian studios who strongly encourages consumer feedback.

BG3 is getting positive reviews because players like the eye-candy in the game and some folks really enjoy the powertrip of shoving an enemy, while other are considering this is early access and hoping the final game has more polish.
If you actually look through the forum you will see a trend where a large number of forum members agree on core issues. If you really believe our opinions are only internet complaining, please go write out your logic on why you disagree with us. There definitely is common ground on changes that could satisfy everyone.

I doubt the Steam reviewers would be upset if party movement & UI movement are improved. I doubt the Steam reviewers would be upset if high ground wasn't ridiculously overtuned. I doubt Steam reviewers would be upset if they got an increased party size.

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Yes, they encourage feedbacks, and they listen. That's it, nothing beyond that. You can make requests but not demands, meaning whether they care to include it is up to them. You seem to make a lot of generalized statements on what people like or why people like it. Even if it's true, it's a game. If people get enjoyment out of it based on a feature, then there's nothing wrong with it. Maybe the issue is that some groups just didn't get what they want out of the game. It happens, and you can't satisfy everyone. At the end of the day, those features you mention would be up to Larian to implement if they so choose, but if they didn't implement it, that wouldn't mean that they didn't listen, it could just be because they didn't want to or if there are things that have higher priority. I personally don't care about those features since I have no issues with it, so I do agree that I personally wouldn't be bothered with its implementation. That is just to show that what players want in the game can be different, and it may not be a priority or even an important thing to implement certain changes. If people want out then nothing you could do about it, as their vision and Larian's vision could just be too different.

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Hilarian,

We're all generalizing, we're in a forum. The whole point of forum discussion is sharing our opinions on something in general. If it was specific there'd be very little to discuss.

When talking about a game in abstract it will always be "in general" unless it's a clear bug in the game. Anything specific I've encountered in Baldur's Gate 3 has been a bug report. Larian does a great job with feedback on bug reports, that's the side where we see how much they care about the game.

Originally Posted by Hilarian
If people get enjoyment out of it based on a feature, then there's nothing wrong with it.
And if players don't enjoy the feature?...
Originally Posted by Hilarian
Maybe the issue is that some groups just didn't get what they want out of the game. It happens, and you can't satisfy everyone.
Some groups sure, but the hot topics I linked aren't just "some groups".
Originally Posted by Hilarian
At the end of the day, those features you mention would be up to Larian to implement if they so choose
I've never doubted that.
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I do agree that I personally wouldn't be bothered with its implementation.
Cool.

Last edited by DragonSnooz; 18/02/21 06:47 PM.
Hilarian #757166 18/02/21 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Hilarian
Yes, they encourage feedbacks, and they listen. That's it, nothing beyond that. You can make requests but not demands, meaning whether they care to include it is up to them. You seem to make a lot of generalized statements on what people like or why people like it. Even if it's true, it's a game. If people get enjoyment out of it based on a feature, then there's nothing wrong with it. Maybe the issue is that some groups just didn't get what they want out of the game. It happens, and you can't satisfy everyone. At the end of the day, those features you mention would be up to Larian to implement if they so choose, but if they didn't implement it, that wouldn't mean that they didn't listen, it could just be because they didn't want to or if there are things that have higher priority.
I agree. I don't have much else to say beyond a +1.


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My 0.02...

The interview focused too much on the glitz the new (and really, hiring and merch pitches?!). If the current patch fixes some of the real issues and gives a bit more content I will be happy enough.

My personal pet peeve is how some characters get stuck bouncing in place sometimes when going down uneven terrain. That sh** is irritating, tactically dangerous since it separates the party, and makes me embarrassed for the developers every time I see it.

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Larian most it’s credit on „we listen to community“. They rent even on issues of the community. There are tons of thread with dozens of pages on multiple forums about issues wich are fully ignored by larian as if they didn’t exist at all.

Instead they put a lot of money and effort into PR-shows and and letting their rule violations getting approved by wotc who would approve EVERYTHING cause after the couple last trys it’s obvious if this game fails too DnD will take Reputation hit on Videogames.

They will approve ANYTHING larian come up with just in hope they know what they doing.

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Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
Larian most it’s credit on „we listen to community“. They rent even on issues of the community. There are tons of thread with dozens of pages on multiple forums about issues wich are fully ignored by larian as if they didn’t exist at all.

Instead they put a lot of money and effort into PR-shows and and letting their rule violations getting approved by wotc who would approve EVERYTHING cause after the couple last trys it’s obvious if this game fails too DnD will take Reputation hit on Videogames.

They will approve ANYTHING larian come up with just in hope they know what they doing.

They listen, but that doesn't mean they'll do exactly what you want them to do.

This forum is not the only source of their information. If most people are happy, they will listen to them, not to you. They also have game statistics that they have to analyze.


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
Nyloth #757211 18/02/21 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
Larian most it’s credit on „we listen to community“. They rent even on issues of the community. There are tons of thread with dozens of pages on multiple forums about issues wich are fully ignored by larian as if they didn’t exist at all.

Instead they put a lot of money and effort into PR-shows and and letting their rule violations getting approved by wotc who would approve EVERYTHING cause after the couple last trys it’s obvious if this game fails too DnD will take Reputation hit on Videogames.

They will approve ANYTHING larian come up with just in hope they know what they doing.

They listen, but that doesn't mean they'll do exactly what you want them to do.

This forum is not the only source of their information. If most people are happy, they will listen to them, not to you. They also have game statistics that they have to analyze.

Does a like on facebook, an upvote on a reddit meme or on a youtube live event mean you're happy with everything ?
Does that mean than you couldn't enjoy something else even more ?

There's a huge potential for improvement in the game in terms of roleplay, in terms of immersion, in terms of choices, in terms of strategy,...
Of course there are personnal whishes and own preferences, but there are also facts.

Some just don't care and don't want to think too much about the deep mechanics of a video game... That's fine but that still doesn't mean that you and I couldn't agree on many things that could improve the experience for both of us.

I'd like to do the exercice.

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Larian seem to really be winging things with this project, and wrap their brains around D&D. They’re surprised how many fire spells druids get?



Feel free to steal my profile pic if you feel the same way. Let's show some solidarity.
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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Larian seem to really be winging things with this project, and wrap their brains around D&D. They’re surprised how many fire spells druids get?
I'm really excited for the Druid's unique ability to light their sword on fire!...

mrfuji3 #757279 18/02/21 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Larian seem to really be winging things with this project, and wrap their brains around D&D. They’re surprised how many fire spells druids get?
I'm really excited for the Druid's unique ability to light their sword on fire!...
Let's be real, if the druid isn't using wild shape it'll probably be standing on higher ground with a crossbow. xD

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