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Joined: Oct 2020
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Not even talking how they are shapeshifting mix of cleric and wizard, who can both heal AND use destructive magic, I am talking about how Sven in his presentation shifted into a Polar Bear (30/30Hp), was killed, and instead of dying just shifted back to his human form with full Hp nd tanked another hit for 10dmg (21/31Hp), then, in the next turn, shifted AGAIN into the Deep Rothe (with full 23/23Hp), got KILLED AGAIN, and, surprise-surprise, shifted back to his (21/31) Hp human form AGAIN, and tanked additional hits again, like what the actual f..., immortal shifter with no restrictions, who can shift into many forms all with different abilities. Then, he went to a dungeon with a single druid... turned into a cat, turned back, took instant short rest (because tactical "genius"), turned into a cat again, sneaked in a cat form half a dungeon, used special ability, then turned into a raven, flew through the remaining dungeon ignoring every trap, took another instant short rest (bruh), turned into a badger (13/13Hp), f...g "teleported" through the ground, drank a potion and "teleported" again. Then, GOT KILLED in animal form, shifted back to full health human form, then, shifted again into the full Hp Bear form (30/30Hp), escaped the dungeon, was healed, returned,.. but was obliterated with full party because he is tactical "genius".
Dude, druids are ridiculously imbalanced. It is not even fun. I want it to be fun. Wizard dies like a fly (lvl4), fighter-tank (lvl4) has wizard spells (False Life necromancy, Thunderwave evocation), cleric has more versatility and destructive power than wizard, and now this.
What do you think?

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I think that it's something we'll have to test.

They changed the rules a bit and that looks very fun but I hope druids won't become better tanks than any other classes and invincible beasts because of Larian's implementation of Wild shape.

But hey on the other hand, no one cares about our opinions here so it's not really usefull to talk about it.

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Moon druids are supposed to be that way, really. =)

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I'm no expert but aside from dismissing the shift as a free action that is exactly how druids are in pnp. I thought it was cool. Seeing as how Moon druids focus on shifting at the cost of extra spells, a deal very much in favor of shifting, I don't see a problem with it. Land druids can't do that since shifting as a Land druid cost an action instead of a bonus action like the Moon counter part.

I can see the Moon druid highlighting the things that frustrate some players like height advantage and resting, but I don't think its the druids fault. I like the class and the utility it brings. Its not my style of play but its one I want on my team if possible.

I do have a bias toward flashy utility so take that with a grain of salt. I'm eager to see the rest of the classes and what changes Larian makes. I'm choosing to be optimistic. Hoping they go Paladin, barbarian, bard, sorcerer, monk, companions for release schedule.

The possibility for new changes I'm choosing to be optimistic for as well. Barbarian buffs, actual catchy songs for bards with flashy magic shows, wild magic sorc and actual scales growing on dragon sorcs, fixing avatar monk, etc.

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why don't we all playtest this a little before we freak out?

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At first, I thought Larian had overdone it... then folks on the forums made me realize : no, it is the OP tabletop druid :P
2 Wild Shapes per Short Rest, at level 1 ! So, yes, a level 1 Druid could kick the asses of many level 1 assailants. Later on, actual fighter classes get the upper hand.

That said, like Jeremy of WotC said, Larian can choose the shapes and their HP to avoid making it too OP in comparison to other classes. If you give the druid access to an animal form that has 40+ HP, then of course the druid becomes almost game breaking.

ps : no matter, as we can Short Rest and Long Rest at will and heal with tons of food anyhow. At the point, might as well do like Pillars of Eternity 2 for simplicity: refresh all class features per encounter. With imposed resting scenes for the role-play / cut-scenes. Yips, I am off topic, sorry.

Last edited by Baraz; 18/02/21 05:40 PM.
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It depends on AC i believe ...
True, Swen was killed thrice, but (corect me if im wrong) but i didnt notice any misses ... maybe he was really unlucky (kinda typicaly for Swen i know laugh ), but if druid is actualy punished by lowering his AC in animal-form ...
Im quite cool with that. O_o

Even better actualy, it seem like good way to force druid to leave his form from time to time.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Let’s not forget druids have restrictions on the kinds of creatures you can wild shape into in tabletop, based on Challenge Rating and if they can swim or fly. Moon Druids don’t get flying creatures until level 8 IIRC

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Most animals forms have terrible AC so they still tend to go down fairly fast in combat.

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Moon druids have been a very popular and strong class since 5e was released. They are most powerful at lower levels, though. Turning into a 34 HP bear is great at level 2... not so much at level 5. Still, they are the best tanks at lower levels (2-5).

Their power fluctuates quite a bit with higher levels. They get more powerful forms at 6 and 9. That's when they get a bump in power, but the levels right before those feel a bit meh. At some points during the leveling process a druid player is better off just casting spells, because their wild shapes only last 1-2 rounds anyway.

The problem really are short rests. A DM won't let you short rest in the middle of a dungeon after every fight. That's what might push them over the edge in BG3.

Last edited by Naerytar; 18/02/21 08:23 PM.
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With two short rests per long rest and long rests determining time progression through the game, you're looking at a Moon Druid having 4 wild shapes per day, each one lasting for an hour (or until killed). So they still have to choose - sneak in as a cat and only have one wildshape to fight with? Smash their way through but have to fight every mob on the way? It's a strategic decision every time.

Their AC in animal form is shit. They can't cast spells in animal form. What animals they can turn into is limited by CR.

Each wild shape essentially gives between 5 and 40 temporary hit points depending on form. That's a lot of healing, but most enemies do 5-20 damage per attack. So your bear is probably going to last 2-3 rounds of actual combat, and turning into a bear nukes your initiative along with your dex score, making it hard to optimise them for using their multiattack to take down enough enemies to keep their THP up.

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Originally Posted by FuryouMiko
With two short rests per long rest and long rests determining time progression through the game, you're looking at a Moon Druid having 4 wild shapes per day, each one lasting for an hour (or until killed). So they still have to choose - sneak in as a cat and only have one wildshape to fight with? Smash their way through but have to fight every mob on the way? It's a strategic decision every time.

Their AC in animal form is shit. They can't cast spells in animal form. What animals they can turn into is limited by CR.

Each wild shape essentially gives between 5 and 40 temporary hit points depending on form. That's a lot of healing, but most enemies do 5-20 damage per attack. So your bear is probably going to last 2-3 rounds of actual combat, and turning into a bear nukes your initiative along with your dex score, making it hard to optimise them for using their multiattack to take down enough enemies to keep their THP up.
If you have two short rests per day, I'm counting six wild shapes per day (the long rest overnight also gives you two). Not that it changes the spirit of what you're saying.

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Moon druids are OP in the first few levels on the tabletop too, but quickly peter off around levels 5-9 as the martial classes gain extra attacks and better gear. At level 10 they get elemental forms and catch up a bit, but they're always a bit worse in melee and have to make up for it with their spell utility. Which they can't use in-form until level 18, so a druid always has to choose between retaining their limited transformations or using their spell utility to help the party. It is a pretty fun playstyle that strongly encourages planning ahead and is one of the harder classes to play.

That is kind of the niche of the moon druid. Massive amounts of health that allows them to tank better than any other class barring the barbarian, but they need active magic so that enemies aren't free to just ignore them and go after the rest of the party.

The main weakness though is two-fold; they have cripplingly low AC and no way to easily augment it and they have really low damage per turn unless they are using concentration on a spell to do damage for them. When I say low AC I mean VERY low. Bear form has an AC of about 11, and even their tankier forms only have an AC of 14 or so.

These two weaknesses play into each other. Because you can't cast in animal form for most of the game you are completely reliant on concentration spells you cast before transforming. If you lose concentration you CANNOT re-cast the spell without changing back. And because your AC is so low you are getting hit a few times every turn, meaning it is almost impossible to keep concentration reliably without investing feats into it.

Once we hit level 5 druid will be a lot more even with the other classes. Until then they get to be kind of OP, but not game-breakingly so. Especially since their OPness is mostly limited to being really good at getting hit so the rest of the party can have fun killing things around the druid.

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I thought it was cool to see the circle of the Moon in action. I was less enthusiastic about the frenetic clicker click and unchaining that seemed to indicate nothing has really changed for the basic controls. I'm a lot less freaked about the wild shape versatility, than more rudimentary stuff like the UI and movement controls. In BG1/2 wildshape was totally weaksauce, even at the lowest levels. Better off just sticking with the scimitar and buckler than trying to kite as a wolf, or barreling around as one of the two bear forms. At least here they got a few more forms to keep it interesting. I just remember never shifting as a druid in BG2, which was lame since its supposed to be a core ability. The shapeshifter kit was like comically terrible in BG2, even if you were super into lycanthropes. At least the Avenger had some interesting monster forms, and the Totemic Druid had spirit summons that could compete in battle, but the Shifter, no thanks. Hopefully its not so OP that it crowds out the Land circle Druid, since that's the more classic spell slinging Druid in my mind. Probably depends where they settle with the final level cap. Druids always felt like an inverted cleric to me at lower levels in BG, shittier armor but better weapons, weaker buffs but better summons etc. Enough utility to handle the basic healer archetype though, so hopefully we get a companion out of the deal

Last edited by Black_Elk; 19/02/21 12:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Druids always felt like an inverted cleric to me at lower levels in BG, shittier armor but better weapons, weaker buffs but better summons etc. Enough utility to handle the basic healer archetype though, so hopefully we get a companion out of the deal

The way they’ve handled Mage Hand and now Flaming Sphere – I can’t wait to see what they do to Spiritual Weapon...

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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I thought it was cool to see the circle of the Moon in action. I was less enthusiastic about the frenetic clicker click and unchaining that seemed to indicate nothing has really changed for the basic controls. I'm a lot less freaked about the wild shape versatility, than more rudimentary stuff like the UI and movement controls. In BG1/2 wildshape was totally weaksauce, even at the lowest levels. Better off just sticking with the scimitar and buckler than trying to kite as a wolf, or barreling around as one of the two bear forms. At least here they got a few more forms to keep it interesting. I just remember never shifting as a druid in BG2, which was lame since its supposed to be a core ability. The shapeshifter kit was like comically terrible in BG2, even if you were super into lycanthropes. At least the Avenger had some interesting monster forms, and the Totemic Druid had spirit summons that could compete in battle, but the Shifter, no thanks. Hopefully its not so OP that it crowds out the Land circle Druid, since that's the more classic spell slinging Druid in my mind. Probably depends where they settle with the final level cap. Druids always felt like an inverted cleric to me at lower levels in BG, shittier armor but better weapons, weaker buffs but better summons etc. Enough utility to handle the basic healer archetype though, so hopefully we get a companion out of the deal

Wasn't Helia a druid? She is supposed to be a companion according to datamining.


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Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I thought it was cool to see the circle of the Moon in action. I was less enthusiastic about the frenetic clicker click and unchaining that seemed to indicate nothing has really changed for the basic controls. I'm a lot less freaked about the wild shape versatility, than more rudimentary stuff like the UI and movement controls. In BG1/2 wildshape was totally weaksauce, even at the lowest levels. Better off just sticking with the scimitar and buckler than trying to kite as a wolf, or barreling around as one of the two bear forms. At least here they got a few more forms to keep it interesting. I just remember never shifting as a druid in BG2, which was lame since its supposed to be a core ability. The shapeshifter kit was like comically terrible in BG2, even if you were super into lycanthropes. At least the Avenger had some interesting monster forms, and the Totemic Druid had spirit summons that could compete in battle, but the Shifter, no thanks. Hopefully its not so OP that it crowds out the Land circle Druid, since that's the more classic spell slinging Druid in my mind. Probably depends where they settle with the final level cap. Druids always felt like an inverted cleric to me at lower levels in BG, shittier armor but better weapons, weaker buffs but better summons etc. Enough utility to handle the basic healer archetype though, so hopefully we get a companion out of the deal

Wasn't Helia a druid? She is supposed to be a companion according to datamining.
I believe she is said to be the werewolf Bard companion.

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I also believe i heared Druid-Werewolf. O_o


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
That is kind of the niche of the moon druid. Massive amounts of health that allows them to tank better than any other class barring the barbarian, but they need active magic so that enemies aren't free to just ignore them and go after the rest of the party.

I just realised this is another advantage Moon Druids have in BG3. Enemies base their targetting on AC meaning the Druid gets to do its job VERY well by virtue of having low AC high HP. They don't need to do anything else to be able to draw aggro.

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Originally Posted by OcO
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I thought it was cool to see the circle of the Moon in action. I was less enthusiastic about the frenetic clicker click and unchaining that seemed to indicate nothing has really changed for the basic controls. I'm a lot less freaked about the wild shape versatility, than more rudimentary stuff like the UI and movement controls. In BG1/2 wildshape was totally weaksauce, even at the lowest levels. Better off just sticking with the scimitar and buckler than trying to kite as a wolf, or barreling around as one of the two bear forms. At least here they got a few more forms to keep it interesting. I just remember never shifting as a druid in BG2, which was lame since its supposed to be a core ability. The shapeshifter kit was like comically terrible in BG2, even if you were super into lycanthropes. At least the Avenger had some interesting monster forms, and the Totemic Druid had spirit summons that could compete in battle, but the Shifter, no thanks. Hopefully its not so OP that it crowds out the Land circle Druid, since that's the more classic spell slinging Druid in my mind. Probably depends where they settle with the final level cap. Druids always felt like an inverted cleric to me at lower levels in BG, shittier armor but better weapons, weaker buffs but better summons etc. Enough utility to handle the basic healer archetype though, so hopefully we get a companion out of the deal

Wasn't Helia a druid? She is supposed to be a companion according to datamining.
I believe she is said to be the werewolf Bard companion.

A bard? I thought, she'll be a druid. But I'll take bard too.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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