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Originally Posted by BeeBee
I'm not a game dev, but I am a project manager and a writer -- and it does seem a bit strange that the biggest patch ever is delivering a new class instead of closing loose threads that would, well, give a better story impression to newcomers.

I'm not looking at this from a veteran D&D player's perspective who cares a lot about different races, classes and customization, but a one of the many newcomers drawn in by the plot and the story. I love the Druid option, but on a superficial level it looks like a very cosmetic change that is not essential to gameplay or to the story. There are so many threads left -- in particular that inaccessible Githyanki crèche and the Underdark Lake -- that look like they should be in EA but aren't. Unless -- unless -- there's something in Act 1B that requires a previously unimplemented Druid Mechanic or plot point to work -- for instance, the party morphing into animals or some twist regarding the new "Faith Guardian of the Circle" quest, and Larian decided to finish Druid to be able to proceed.

I'm happy about the Druids and looking forward to playing as a sneaky, stealthy polar bear, it just seems like such a strange deliverable at this point.

They announced that Patch 4 is so big that it overtakes all previous versions of the game + patch, so there must be a lot of content in there. Dataminers are going to have a blast.

Alternatively, do you think it's possible that Patch 4 is going to unlock Origin Characters, and that's why it's so massive? Or is the size related to the new cinematics and Speak with the Dead improvements?

Well, I wouldn't complain if it was a cool class, for example a Sorcerer. As I have pointed out earlier, Sorcerers are an essential class - instead of Druids. Sorcerers are not only more charismatic and better looking, but also less smelly than Druids.

Since we only got smelly Druids, I am of course as outraged as you are. Larian could at least have offered a little additional area. Preferably one with NPC sorcerers wink

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I think Larian understands that we are all of us cats, and so we will play with some shiny new toy for a few months and then abandon it.

So they give us Druids now, we'll play with those and larian get the info they need. Then we might get Paladin, or Half-orc to spark new interest, and so and so on.

If they just finished the game already, we'd play it, get bored, and drop it. No usefulness for Larian in that path.

If we were more like dogs and could be relied on to chase the ball every single time it'd be different, but we are all just cats, making our masters work hard for it grin

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Originally Posted by Umbra
I think Larian understands that we are all of us cats, and so we will play with some shiny new toy for a few months and then abandon it.

So they give us Druids now, we'll play with those and larian get the info they need. Then we might get Paladin, or Half-orc to spark new interest, and so and so on.

If they just finished the game already, we'd play it, get bored, and drop it. No usefulness for Larian in that path.

If we were more like dogs and could be relied on to chase the ball every single time it'd be different, but we are all just cats, making our masters work hard for it grin

In that case, as a meowing, starving and discerning cat ...

... I demand a fishing game at camp. :3


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Druid was probably already half complete way before launch. If anything I assume it was cut at launch to iron out the kinks. Also it's was kind of weird having place holder druids when the whole 1st act centered around them.

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Originally Posted by BeeBee
Originally Posted by Umbra
I think Larian understands that we are all of us cats, and so we will play with some shiny new toy for a few months and then abandon it.

So they give us Druids now, we'll play with those and larian get the info they need. Then we might get Paladin, or Half-orc to spark new interest, and so and so on.

If they just finished the game already, we'd play it, get bored, and drop it. No usefulness for Larian in that path.

If we were more like dogs and could be relied on to chase the ball every single time it'd be different, but we are all just cats, making our masters work hard for it grin

In that case, as a meowing, starving and discerning cat ...

... I demand a fishing game at camp. :3

Although I agree that would be great, rather see that done with modders than have the developers get sidetracked for camp minigames. That is a good way to fall in the pit of feature creep.

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Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by BeeBee
I'm not a game dev, but I am a project manager and a writer -- and it does seem a bit strange that the biggest patch ever is delivering a new class instead of closing loose threads that would, well, give a better story impression to newcomers.

I'm not looking at this from a veteran D&D player's perspective who cares a lot about different races, classes and customization, but a one of the many newcomers drawn in by the plot and the story. I love the Druid option, but on a superficial level it looks like a very cosmetic change that is not essential to gameplay or to the story. There are so many threads left -- in particular that inaccessible Githyanki crèche and the Underdark Lake -- that look like they should be in EA but aren't. Unless -- unless -- there's something in Act 1B that requires a previously unimplemented Druid Mechanic or plot point to work -- for instance, the party morphing into animals or some twist regarding the new "Faith Guardian of the Circle" quest, and Larian decided to finish Druid to be able to proceed.

I'm happy about the Druids and looking forward to playing as a sneaky, stealthy polar bear, it just seems like such a strange deliverable at this point.

They announced that Patch 4 is so big that it overtakes all previous versions of the game + patch, so there must be a lot of content in there. Dataminers are going to have a blast.

Alternatively, do you think it's possible that Patch 4 is going to unlock Origin Characters, and that's why it's so massive? Or is the size related to the new cinematics and Speak with the Dead improvements?

Well, I wouldn't complain if it was a cool class, for example a Sorcerer. As I have pointed out earlier, Sorcerers are an essential class - instead of Druids. Sorcerers are not only more charismatic and better looking, but also less smelly than Druids.

Since we only got smelly Druids, I am of course as outraged as you are. Larian could at least have offered a little additional area. Preferably one with NPC sorcerers wink

As a smelly druid, I feel offended and unappreciated cry wink


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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Originally Posted by fylimar
As a smelly druid, I feel offended and unappreciated cry wink

Well, nothing against Druids. They are very useful to tend to the gardens and horses. But if you had been born as a sorcerer, you could simply have made a ludicrously easy DC 20 charisma check and talked Goblins and Tieflings into making peace.

Game over, the credits roll. Everyone lives happily ever after. Similar to Far Cry 4.

But since sorcerers have not been included, there is war and strife along the sword coast. People have to fear for their lives and villages are burned to the ground cry

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Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by fylimar
As a smelly druid, I feel offended and unappreciated cry wink

Well, nothing against Druids. They are very useful to tend to the gardens and horses. But if you had been born as a sorcerer, you could simply have made a ludicrously easy DC 20 charisma check and talked Goblins and Tieflings into making peace.

Game over, the credits roll. Everyone lives happily ever after. Similar to Far Cry 4.

But since sorcerers have not been included, there is war and strife along the sword coast. People have to fear for their lives and villages are burned to the ground cry

I don't think that Druids are against villages being burned -- there's evidence in the Library that the Emerald Grove engineered an avalanche to prevent the development of a nearby village. They are, however, opposed at being personally targeted by goblins.

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Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by fylimar
As a smelly druid, I feel offended and unappreciated cry wink

Well, nothing against Druids. They are very useful to tend to the gardens and horses. But if you had been born as a sorcerer, you could simply have made a ludicrously easy DC 20 charisma check and talked Goblins and Tieflings into making peace.

Game over, the credits roll. Everyone lives happily ever after. Similar to Far Cry 4.

But since sorcerers have not been included, there is war and strife along the sword coast. People have to fear for their lives and villages are burned to the ground cry

You forgot the warlocks, our current charisma bombs.
And really, who needs a sorcerer, if they can have a bard wink


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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Who needs anything other than warlock, just a team of warlocks trying to deal with their contracts and differing interests of their patrons. You got power, drama, plot, and character!

But more seriously, I want to them to introduce all the classes and the full origin cast before moving on to expanding the act. The mechanics and how they interact need to be settled before more quests can be implemented with those mechanics in mind. I'd say the same for non origin companions, something I have requested a lot, and other things many people have requested. The base of a house needs to be built before the walls or the roof. That being said, I think some parts of the base do need to be adjusted closer to 5e so it can be stronger and more stable as a base.

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Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by fylimar
As a smelly druid, I feel offended and unappreciated cry wink

Well, nothing against Druids. They are very useful to tend to the gardens and horses. But if you had been born as a sorcerer, you could simply have made a ludicrously easy DC 20 charisma check and talked Goblins and Tieflings into making peace.

Game over, the credits roll. Everyone lives happily ever after. Similar to Far Cry 4.

But since sorcerers have not been included, there is war and strife along the sword coast. People have to fear for their lives and villages are burned to the ground cry

You forgot the warlocks, our current charisma bombs.
And really, who needs a sorcerer, if they can have a bard wink

Booo, bards, booo! Honestly, no one likes bards. I take a smelly Druid any time over a bard:


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First up, the purpose of EA isn't to draw in new players, it's to stress test game mechanics, bug fix, identify exploits, collect metadata, and get a feel for how the game will be received by different demographics in its current form.

A story is a story, and doesn't really fit any of those categories. Releasing more story in EA both devalues the end product to anyone in EA, and doesn't really hit any of those EA goals. The trick is to release just enough content to get the data you want, without revealing your whole hand.

As to why druid first: think of the implications of the class versus the others we are waiting on. From a point of view of assets and world interactions, Wildshape is a huge undertaking compared to Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, Sorcerer or Bard. These mostly involve new spells and skills added to an existing toolset.

Druid needs 7 completely new animation sets, balance assessments, whole conversations (such as shown with Scratch in camp, this goes beyond just a class flavour [DRUID] line) on TOP of the new spells and skills. Sadly, for this reason I expect Sorcerer last as whilst it PLAYS as a very different class, in terms of interaction with the game world it is virtually identical to Wizard. There just isn't as much to test.

Finally, as someone already mentioned, patch size is a function of data renewal rather than content. This is the last huge patch because future ones will be better optimized, not because they contain fewer changes.

Last edited by Elessaria666; 20/02/21 12:30 PM.
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As a D&D veteran, this is the kind of update I'm most excited about. I'll be very happy every time they add new classes, subclasses, and spells for us to try out. One of the biggest draws of this game for me is being able to play all of the character builds I don't get the chance to play in my tabletop games.

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I always have a little laugh whenever Swen emphatically asks people to not buy the game in EA unless they really want to see their process and are interested in that. I would have liked to see more story stuff too, but that's not what they're doing so that's that.

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Originally Posted by Elessaria666
First up, the purpose of EA isn't to draw in new players, it's to stress test game mechanics, bug fix, identify exploits, collect metadata, and get a feel for how the game will be received by different demographics in its current form.

The game does seem to have drawn in quite a few new players alongside the fans of BG, DnD and DOS though? Larian have definitely gone for a wider appeal than previous BG games. And getting as much money upfront can only be a good thing from their perspective.

Judging by Larian's relative lack of communication in these forums, it is hard to know what they make of much of the feedback that has been given and which feedback they intend to consider. The changes they have made to their own mechanics (cantrips, barrelmancy, companion personalities) have been *relatively* small so far.

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