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First of all, I want to preface that I agree with most of the criticism on the sub (not all of it, for example, I personally like the high ground mechanics, without it positioning is just whether or not you can see someone, but that's an entirely different conversation) however, I hate the way you are presenting it... Some of the people on here are extremely rude and extremely entitled.

So, please keep those next things in mind the next time you post something here:
1. They never promised they will try to replicate 5e as closely as they can, not even in the slightest. If you actually look at the interviews, when asked about the level of faithfulness they always said that they are using the 5e ruleset as the basis but changing it to fit the new medium better (this doesn't mean only changing stuff that can't be done on a computer, but also to make it more mechanically engaging since you aren't just describing what you are doing)
2. It's your fault if you bought an early access game and are disappointed. They were very clear that the purpose of the early access is for us to playtest the game, and it's not even close to fully realized.
3. There are zero reasons for you to be hostile towards the company in the way you are describing the issue you have with the game. Again, you chose to play the game in an unfinished state, and our only role right now is as playtesters.

Basically what I am trying to say is that you guys need to chill out and remember we are just playtesters providing feedback.

And one other thing, which is a bit unrelated, but I don't get people that say that the game doesn't feel like dnd. Yes, the game has some big deviations from the ruleset, but it's still 5e at its core. Look at it this way, what if you played a game of basketball with someone but they said that in their court the basket is half a meter higher and the 3 steps rule is changed to 4 steps. Are you really going the say that if you would play that you would feel like you are playing a different sport?

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I've been reading game forums for about 20 years now, and it seems people in general have the volume dialed up to 11 - or maybe 111. Games have their problems, sure, but people seem to just lose their minds over trivia.
The part I find particularly bizarre is the common theme that the devs have it in for everyone or some identifiable class or grouping. Again, this seems to be a near universal claim, but it beggars belief. So far as I can see, developing games is hard, both technically and from the project management side - scope & feature creep seems like an ongoing problem, for instance, to say nothing of gameplay issues like class balance, grouping mechanics, pathing and a bazillion other issues. I've tried games I didn't care for - Shadowbane comes to mind, but I didn't get my knickers in a twist, I just got on with my life.

There's also a tendency to see personal disagreements about how the game might work best are treated as personal attacks and can easily turn very hostile. I strongly suspect that good gaming is an emergent property, which cannot be predicted from the individual elements of design, so we should all relax a little, especially since the odds are that no=one on the boards has done significant design work on a successfull game.

I don't think we should ascribe to malice what chaos can reasonably accomplish.

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It's hard to convey tone in the forums. Very few, if any are losing their minds over this game.

I worked retail as a teenager so I am well aware of customers with issues. What you are seeing in the forums is nothing.

I will say this. Telling people, strangers, how they should react to what they consider bad news never goes well. It's pretty silly.

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90% of the aggressors on this forum are men who think that their opinions and views are the only true and correct ones. unfortunately, nothing new. but I am glad that there are also a lot of adequate people here. who are willing to compromise and listen to others.


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Originally Posted by H3ll Pme
And one other thing, which is a bit unrelated, but I don't get people that say that the game doesn't feel like dnd. Yes, the game has some big deviations from the ruleset, but it's still 5e at its core. Look at it this way, what if you played a game of basketball with someone but they said that in their court the basket is half a meter higher and the 3 steps rule is changed to 4 steps. Are you really going the say that if you would play that you would feel like you are playing a different sport?

The changes they've made to the mechanics of 5e are, going by basketball as the example, more in the line of playing with a basket the size of a hula hoop, and the rule that whenever you hold the ball you're not just allowed to take more steps but nobody on the opposing team is allowed to move at all.

Nobody cares about whether or not they follow 5e to the minutia or not. People care about the changes they've made from 5e because they're making the game worse and less fun.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
The changes they've made to the mechanics of 5e are, going by basketball as the example, more in the line of playing with a basket the size of a hula hoop, and the rule that whenever you hold the ball you're not just allowed to take more steps but nobody on the opposing team is allowed to move at all.
Nobody cares about whether or not they follow 5e to the minutia or not. People care about the changes they've made from 5e because they're making the game worse and less fun.

I agree.

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Sigh. I am hoping people on this site are better than on Steam. The aggressive attacks for the simplest suggestions make it hard to want to keep suggesting changes.

Negative breeds negative. Positive breeds positive. If we are going to positively change the game, people need to stop attacking one another and the creators. They are doing their best to appeal to everyone; D&D 5e full time gamers and those who've never played D&D in their lives. They want as many people to buy the game as possible and to think it's awesome.

So naturally not everyone is going to be happy with changes that they make. I personally don't think the throwing barrels thing around is logical and a good game mechanic. It makes no sense to be able to carry something that big and heavy around and then toss it 30 feet at an enemy. But if people think that makes it fun because it's ridiculous, and that is the majority, then I can live with something that doesn't make logical sense in the real world.

I also very much want some limitations on Fast Travel with some random encounters as well as random encounters when trying to rest in the wild. Make it so that you can't just teleport out of the Goblin's Base when they all want to kill you, and make it so that you can't just Short Rest when they are hunting for you to kill you. I also want them to make it so that food is more of healing at camp thing, or you need to eat food and drink something to keep from getting fatigued or lethargic or something. Eating a rack of ribs as a Bonus Action during combat doesn't make sense to me. It's nice when an ogre is trying to bash your face in with his cudgel, but it doesn't really make sense from a realism perspective.

But again, these are all things I may not agree with in the game right now, but I respect that it's a video game and they are trying to make it fun. If they get too bogged down with certain rules it may make the game totally frustrating for people, especially those who have never played D&D before.

Hardcore fans might not like it, but the bottom line is that the creators need to make enough money to warrant making these kinds of games. If you restrict the gameplay too much to absolute D&D 5e tabletop rules, there is a good chance that Larian will completely lose a huge number of their customers.

This is partially why it drives me crazy when people argue that this isn't a BG game at all because it isn't enough like BG1 and 2. I love those games, but they are old. Larian can't be putting out there a game that feels old. It has to feel new and fresh and dynamic and graphically awesome.

I look at Solasta which is a really great game, and I look at the difference in the number of posts on Steam that there are between Solasta and BG3. It's something like a 15,000 post difference. Why? BG3 has the graphics and the epic story and dynamics that draw crowds. Solasta is awesome and sticks more closely to the 5e rules, but it isn't as graphically incredible, and it isn't as replayable or dynamic in dialogue options and flexibility and so forth.

I've played Baldur's Gate 3 now multiple times over with different character combinations and so forth and it's a different game each time. I learn something new every time I play the game over from start. I find different items, read different tomes, have different conversations. Sure, the main plot is relatively the same, but there are SO many paths to take in this game that make it so much more enjoyable than Solasta. Again, love Solasta, and I find it to be a very fun game in its own right, but there is a definite difference in the overall scheme of things. This is because Larian is making the game new and fresh and keeping it to the standards of some of the best games created this year. Granted, they have a bigger budget than Tactical Adventures, but that's not the point. The point is that if Larian created a BG3 game that was a regurgitation of BG1 and 2, it wouldn't fly nearly as well as it is right now. The people who would buy are mostly those who simply adored BG1 and 2, and that would lock BG3 into a much smaller customer base.

So let's give Larian some room to breathe and do their own thing. Share your opinions and suggestions, but let's try to keep these things constructive and not just bashing the game and its creators and its community.

Well, that's my two cents anyway on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by H3ll Pme
And one other thing, which is a bit unrelated, but I don't get people that say that the game doesn't feel like dnd. Yes, the game has some big deviations from the ruleset, but it's still 5e at its core. Look at it this way, what if you played a game of basketball with someone but they said that in their court the basket is half a meter higher and the 3 steps rule is changed to 4 steps. Are you really going the say that if you would play that you would feel like you are playing a different sport?

The changes they've made to the mechanics of 5e are, going by basketball as the example, more in the line of playing with a basket the size of a hula hoop, and the rule that whenever you hold the ball you're not just allowed to take more steps but nobody on the opposing team is allowed to move at all.

Nobody cares about whether or not they follow 5e to the minutia or not. People care about the changes they've made from 5e because they're making the game worse and less fun.

Oh, I disagree. There are LOTS of people on Steam who are not happy that Larian isn't keeping it strict to 5e rules. It's not just because they think the game is becoming less fun. They want a game that is totally 5e.

But I get where you're coming from. There are some things I don't like. I'd have rather had them create the Half-Orc race and maybe a few more classes than to focus on Loaded Dice and such.

Still, what I don't understand is why people get so upset when developers provide more options for players. If you don't want to use Loaded Dice to make the game easier, then don't. How does it make the game less fun for you? They aren't taking anything away from you. They're adding more options for people who don't know the game system as well. Right?

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@GM4Him

I didn't want to quote your entire post.

It seems like you are telling people to suck it up and accept things as they are. If so, why even have EA? The whole point of EA is for input, good or bad. If game mechanics are broken or unbalanced, we should voice our opinions. There's been plenty of reasonable suggestions that I will not rehash here but a lot of the frustration is coming from the lack of communication.

And yes this game is Baldur's Gate. But it's more like DOS with a BG skin, not D&D with DOS mods.

I've said it in the past. Either go DOS or go 5e. Trying to blend these two clearly different mechanics is ruining the game. You can't please everyone, I agree with you there.

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Personally, I like the "you betrayed your players" posts. They are acting like Larian is their girlfriend, that they just caught in bed with Bioware. I mean it is a game, betrayal is such a strong term to through around because it doesn't meet you expectations lol.

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People get upset about Loaded dice because it doesn't deal with the problem of the bad RNG. It's a crutch that they've added to help you ignore the problem (while calling you a cheater for not wanting to deal with their poor RNG) instead of fixing the actual problem behind the issue.

And no, I can guarantee that not a single one of all those people on Steam gives a single bit about good changes from 5e -- such as potions being bonus actions to use -- they only care because the most glaring examples of additions are things that make the game worse, such as it being too easy to get advantage in combat, classes robbed of their defining class features without getting anything in return, or height advantage effectively granting you both a +5 to hit and a +5 to AC, or HP-targetting spells like Sleep not being rebalance in proportion to the higher-than-average HP they've given enemies, and so on. It's not "it has to be 100% 5e in all matters" it's "this would be better if you just had stuck to 5e".


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Facts :

Betrayal's root is betray, which comes from the Middle English word bitrayen — meaning "mislead, deceive." Betrayal has to do with destroying someone's trust, possibly by lying.

"true to 5e" and "implementing it as pure as we can" (Swen quotes) : expressions, among other ones, attracting D&D players to sell EA.
Same for working "directly with players", listening to us etc.

Result (factual) :
Hello D&D buddies ! Today I play a warrior. I can heal like a cleric and cast spells like a wizard with my ninety scrolls. When I am hurt in a fight, I eat my bogies and I feel better. My bogies are very abundant, it is very practical. I can fart also. This is a magic fart. When I fart, I avoid what some D&D people call "AoO". And it is strategic too. I can flee with my fart, and I can gain advantage. It is fun. I like advantage. I do not need spells and complicate things to have it. It is good. You know, I just fart. Or I climb stairs or ladder. If my buddy is down, I touch him, and it is ok. Buddy's back. A dozen times if I want. Touch. Cured. Touch . Cured. Otherwise, I throw a potion on the buddy, et voilà. No more need of what D&D people call "healing word". Oh I do not need what D&D people call a bow and a sword. I can cast grenades, powder barrels (it is better than this old and dusty D&D fireball), boom boom, they are all dead. It is very fun. I don't know why D&D people want 100% of rules. What are D&D people complaining about ?
(Of course, it is a limited list)

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Originally Posted by H3ll Pme
First of all, I want to preface that I agree with most of the criticism on the sub (not all of it, for example, I personally like the high ground mechanics, without it positioning is just whether or not you can see someone, but that's an entirely different conversation) however, I hate the way you are presenting it... Some of the people on here are extremely rude and extremely entitled.
Most people on here are okay with high ground mechanics. Just not mechanics that are overtuned to the point certain spells aren't going to be used.
High Ground Mechanics, and Backstab

Originally Posted by H3ll Pme
So, please keep those next things in mind the next time you post something here:
1. They never promised they will try to replicate 5e as closely as they can, not even in the slightest. If you actually look at the interviews, when asked about the level of faithfulness they always said that they are using the 5e ruleset as the basis but changing it to fit the new medium better (this doesn't mean only changing stuff that can't be done on a computer, but also to make it more mechanically engaging since you aren't just describing what you are doing)
2. It's your fault if you bought an early access game and are disappointed. They were very clear that the purpose of the early access is for us to playtest the game, and it's not even close to fully realized.
3. There are zero reasons for you to be hostile towards the company in the way you are describing the issue you have with the game. Again, you chose to play the game in an unfinished state, and our only role right now is as playtesters.

Basically what I am trying to say is that you guys need to chill out and remember we are just playtesters providing feedback.

And one other thing, which is a bit unrelated, but I don't get people that say that the game doesn't feel like dnd. Yes, the game has some big deviations from the ruleset, but it's still 5e at its core. Look at it this way, what if you played a game of basketball with someone but they said that in their court the basket is half a meter higher and the 3 steps rule is changed to 4 steps. Are you really going the say that if you would play that you would feel like you are playing a different sport?
This really should go both ways. There are a lot of folks who have been crass and just attack folks for providing feedback, it's crass to single out the crowd who would like the game to be closer to 5e.

Honestly the crowd who wants to patronize forum members for expressing their opinions and discounting them with "They never promised they will try to replicate 5e as closely as they can, not even in the slightest." " It's your fault if you bought an early access game and are disappointed." is just as culpable for not being chill. It's okay to let people vent their frustrations, maybe they have something good to bring to the game but they're caught up in emotions at the moment.

Neither of those quotes (1 or 2) are constructive. And some forum members want to pocket those statements and use them to silence the opinions of others. If you believe something is better than what 5e RAW could provide, it could a long way to try to explain that with reason and logic, rather than immediately trying to discount the opinions of others.

For example, you don't see posts saying that Larian could buff the spells negatively impacted by high ground providing advantageFOR/disadvantageAgainst. That's a possible solution, but too many people will hop on a bandwagon and discount the opinions of others with "They never promised they will try to replicate 5e as closely as they can, not even in the slightest."

If you really want a chill forum environment:
Forum members actually writing out thoughts on why they think the current (or a different) game balance is better would go a long way to making this forum more chill.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
It's hard to convey tone in the forums. Very few, if any are losing their minds over this game.

I worked retail as a teenager so I am well aware of customers with issues. What you are seeing in the forums is nothing.

I will say this. Telling people, strangers, how they should react to what they consider bad news never goes well. It's pretty silly.

Pretty much this. Outside of that one thread with that questionable 'betrayal' wording, this forum is pretty tame compared to the likes of Reddit and Steam. And even then, this forum's perceived 'harshness' comes from a desire for the game to get better, rather than simply talking other people down for disagreeing and insulting them on a personal level for disagreeing with the 'developer's vision'. For some reason, people never seem to call out the latter (probably because it's usually a lot more dangerous to do so), even though it's just as harmful, if not even moreso because it's far more likely to lead to echo chamber behavior among the community at large.

Context is everything. One also needs to note that tone is not just something that a poster sets with their wording, but what everyone else chooses to assign to it too. For example, I would say the OP's use of 'they never promised' and 'it's your fault' to be considered hostile as well. At least from what I see on this forum, one side at least suggests changes and offers reasoning for them, while the other is quick to assign personal blame over a disagreement of preferences. After all, it's hard NOT to be hostile if you spend half an hour typing out a well reasoned response, only to get drive by posts like the below.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=756875#Post756875

Originally Posted by redcaptrickster
Most of what you're reading isn't criticism, it's whining.

That said, there is also a certain questionable quality to not engaging with the debates directly and making a thread trying to tone police the forum instead, but again, I don't really know what context most of the posters in this thread are running off of.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Hardcore fans might not like it, but the bottom line is that the creators need to make enough money to warrant making these kinds of games. If you restrict the gameplay too much to absolute D&D 5e tabletop rules, there is a good chance that Larian will completely lose a huge number of their customers.

The point is that if Larian created a BG3 game that was a regurgitation of BG1 and 2, it wouldn't fly nearly as well as it is right now. The people who would buy are mostly those who simply adored BG1 and 2, and that would lock BG3 into a much smaller customer base.

While I am in general agreement with most of your post, the quoted part is an extremely bold generalized claim to make, and I am obligated to call this out. And I say this as someone who has never played BG1 and BG2. It is pointless to speculate on the popularity of something that didn't happen, especially with such a definitive tone, and some would interpret an attempt at that as rather insulting.

No one is able to accurately gauge the popularity of something. It's all perception. As someone who is actually aware of Larian's history before they made the D:OS games, they were pigenholed by their publishers into making action RPGs out of a belief that they'd be more popular, until Larian broke free and finally used Kickstarter to make enough money to make the turn-based games they always wanted to make.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Personally, I like the "you betrayed your players" posts. They are acting like Larian is their girlfriend, that they just caught in bed with Bioware. I mean it is a game, betrayal is such a strong term to through around because it doesn't meet you expectations lol.
Lmao this was the main thing that caused me to make this post, but when you look at it this way, it is actually so funny xD

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Originally Posted by Lunar Dante
Facts :

Betrayal's root is betray, which comes from the Middle English word bitrayen — meaning "mislead, deceive." Betrayal has to do with destroying someone's trust, possibly by lying.

"true to 5e" and "implementing it as pure as we can" (Swen quotes) : expressions, among other ones, attracting D&D players to sell EA.
Same for working "directly with players", listening to us etc.

Result (factual) :
Hello D&D buddies ! Today I play a warrior. I can heal like a cleric and cast spells like a wizard with my ninety scrolls. When I am hurt in a fight, I eat my bogies and I feel better. My bogies are very abundant, it is very practical. I can fart also. This is a magic fart. When I fart, I avoid what some D&D people call "AoO". And it is strategic too. I can flee with my fart, and I can gain advantage. It is fun. I like advantage. I do not need spells and complicate things to have it. It is good. You know, I just fart. Or I climb stairs or ladder. If my buddy is down, I touch him, and it is ok. Buddy's back. A dozen times if I want. Touch. Cured. Touch . Cured. Otherwise, I throw a potion on the buddy, et voilà. No more need of what D&D people call "healing word". Oh I do not need what D&D people call a bow and a sword. I can cast grenades, powder barrels (it is better than this old and dusty D&D fireball), boom boom, they are all dead. It is very fun. I don't know why D&D people want 100% of rules. What are D&D people complaining about ?
(Of course, it is a limited list)

1) Please point out where a warrior can heal, because I have played the class in game, and the only way (which does a sucky heal because he doesn't have correct stats) is to use a healing scroll in regards to a non-ability heal like pots. Your classification of jump, although you probably believe is hilarious is really kind of childish.
2) You cannot just keep lifting your companions from being disabled indefinitely as you put it, you can do it once per character on your party. So if the PC helps say Gale up during a fight, he can't do it again during the same fight. Another companion has to do it.
3) I actually agree with you about the barrels I think they are idiotic.
4) Lets be honest with 5E here. It is the carebear edition to the D&D franchise. MANY D&D players despise it, and concur that 3.5 is the best. So really, if Larian wants to make some changes to it, that is fine with me.

I keep seeing these posts from some posters, that it isn't about the fact that Larian didn't go 1:1 in regards to 5E, which again if you want to be all elitist about pure D&D would be wanting more 3.5, but about 98.9% of complaints I have seen is in regards to ability sets, or class sets in regards to the strict definition of 5E. Which in all fairness, I feel is ironic, considering that 5E itself basically changed the established rules of the previous editions, so people aren't as locked into their class lol. Not to mention, in regards to complaints of short rests, one of the benefits of 5E over 3.5 is the flexibility and the chance to in fact take short rests.

*And yes, I see the irony of a semi snarky reply in a post about less aggressive communication. My apologies.

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
[quote=spectralhunter]It's hard to convey tone in the forums. Very few, if any are losing their minds over
Context is everything. One also needs to note that tone is not just something that a poster sets with their wording, but what everyone else chooses to assign to it too. For example, I would say the OP's use of 'they never promised' and 'it's your fault' to be considered hostile as well. At least from what I see on this forum, one side at least suggests changes and offers reasoning for them, while the other is quick to assign personal blame over a disagreement of preferences.

That said, there is also a certain questionable quality to not engaging with the debates directly and making a thread trying to tone police the forum instead, but again, I don't really know what context most of the posters in this thread are running off of.

The reason I was a bit hostile was probably that I was almost replying to them, but yeah you're right I should have worded it better.

And about me not directly commenting on the posts, there were two main reasons:
1. It would feel like way besides the point to completely ignore the actual topic of the posts and just talk about how they worded it.
2. I felt like it applied to more than one post (way more) so I saw it fitting to talk about the topic as a whole without targeting someone specific.

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I just saw that 'DnD buddies' thread, which this thread is probably in response to. The hell? Stuff like that helps no one.

And then of course my own thread which is basically an essay on everyone's grievances with the game's combat system is poised to die out quickly instead, with none of the people disagreeing with the premise trying to engage for some reason. Putting in actual effort to facilitate actual productive discussion is becoming rarer and rarer on the internet these days because people would rather be provocative and reactive. Though one could say that real life behaves the same way too.

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+1000000000 to OP.

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Originally Posted by H3ll Pme
Some of the people on here are extremely rude and extremely entitled.

People this, the people that, some people thiselse, most people thatelse. Quantifiers are important.

If you're saying "The people on this forum really need to communicate less aggressively", I'd say, well, no, not everyone, and I feel it's fine overall. If you're saying "Some of the people on here are extremely rude and extremely entitled", I'd say yes. Some people are so rude they get banned. This happens from time to time.


Originally Posted by H3ll Pme
1. They never promised they will try to replicate 5e as closely as they can, not even in the slightest. If you actually look at the interviews, when asked about the level of faithfulness they always said that they are using the 5e ruleset as the basis but changing it to fit the new medium better (this doesn't mean only changing stuff that can't be done on a computer, but also to make it more mechanically engaging since you aren't just describing what you are doing)

Well, I made a whole post investigating this question. My take-away was :
- When asked about the rules, their position was "If we can stick to the rules then we stick to the rules, but if we need to modify them to make them more fun, or if they don’t work in a video game setting, then we’ll adapt them". Everybody can judge whether the changes are tweaks, or more significant than that. Solasta proves that 5E-in-video-game "works" and that Larian's changes are not necessary to make things work.
- In places, they would say "Well we’re basically trying to make the game that we’d like to play". But when you also say "While there will be a few tweaks here and there, gameplay will feel very true to 5th Edition", go figure why some people remember that it was supposed to be true to 5E. This isn't sending the clearest message.
- They mostly shied away from saying "we like X, we want BG3 to have more Y than 5E". They painted their changes as being a necessity, either for things to work, or to make it "more fun". But they were a choice, and they didn't elaborate too much on what they, as creators, find fun.

To be clear, none of the above implies that the current gameplay is good or bad, that 5E is "better", that I would prefer more faithfulness to 5E, or that Larian should follow 5E more. I'm just saying the communication wasn't exactly great.


Originally Posted by spectralhunter
It's hard to convey tone in the forums. Very few, if any are losing their minds over this game.

100% yes. Well, I don't have any poll data for the second claim, but I think that many of the most critical voices are not losing their mind. Just being critical.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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