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I agree with the oil suggestion. If you had to coat your weapon in oil as an action and then ignite it on a bonus action next turn it'd be a lot more immersive and balanced at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Topgoon
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Topgoon
I'm okay with Larian exploring adding in more strategic options outside of the core 5e rules for players to use.

Except Larian is not really doing that. For instance, both dipping and shove adds nothing new. These options exist already in D&D in multiple forms, even implemented into BG3. This is about making strategic options into core elements no matter what the cost, no matter how clunky, how imbalanced, or how unimmersive.

Did you read the rest of my post?

I did. And I agree with all of it except for Larian exploring strategic options outside 5e. Can't really think of one thing really new except incentivizing tactical movement through height/flanking advantages -- which is an old D&D thing (that a lot of people feel are OVER-incentivized in BG3 EA). Even "barrelmancy" is a thing that could exist in D&D, through barrels of Alchemical Fire for instance...or plain old Fireball (wand if you have to), or potion of Fire Breath, etc. The issue isn't even that these things already exists in superior forms to those of Larian, but that Larian seem dead set on forcing these options on you at all times. Total waste considering how freaking complex D&D already is. To me, it kind of shows a lack of appreciation for D&D.

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can someone more knowledgeable than me put the details of the dipping mechanism ? I think it cost a bonus action iirc, so potentially movement as well to get close to the source , duration is ? is it easy to set it up before a fight ?

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I'm not sure I remember well but what does it cost to coat your weapon with poison ? Action or bonus action ?

Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
The problem with options is that the game difficulty has to be balanced arround something.

If the game is balanced with "cheese", it will become very hard or frustrating without it. If not, it will be very easy using these mechanics.
I'm nearly sure that's exactly what happen at the moment and why the game is very hard to some players and very easy to others.

I think the best solution is to find a compromise instead of thinking about toggle on/off everything.

I'm not sure you can properly balance a game difficulty for 2 completely different systems.

Frankly, I consider the Larian cheese more of an I-win-button/easy-mode than something the game is balanced around. Sure, it's harder without using it, but definitely doable. Even solo. Even so, I may refrain from using the cheese, but just knowing it is there makes me feel like I'm engaging in a self-nerf/fighting with a handicap and this actually limits enjoyment a bit (especially when I think of the many better ways the resources should have been used). I would have an easier time of it if instantly winning by pushing the boss off a cliff also, or exploding enemies with barrels, meant some magic item/loot would be lost/broken/burnt. Risk vs reward would be more balanced again. I want to not feel like a fool for not doing this the easy silly way. I want a concrete reason.

I agree an option is the last resort, only marginally better than nothing. Larian's cheese can be fun, but shouldn't be a core mechanic and rather be scaled back to become a situational tactical option. For instance, Shove is implemented in an objectively overpowered, unbalancing (both shove and jump favors strength builds) and immersion breaking way. So unnecessary! The fun can be had using D&D assets or homebrew with internal logic. Magic Hand, Thunderwave and Repelling Blast is already implemented. It could be expanded with a wand or a magic item/weapon that made the user charge and shove at the end, or a tadpole power. This would in my mind solve the unimmersive cheese and retain the fun.

You're right, I wasn't thinking about shove and barrelmancy while talking about "completely different systems" because as you said, those can easily be avoided. But you were talking about this so I should have been more precise.

Anyway that's not really what the thread is about.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 21/02/21 08:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by Karanshade
can someone more knowledgeable than me put the details of the dipping mechanism ? I think it cost a bonus action iirc, so potentially movement as well to get close to the source , duration is ? is it easy to set it up before a fight ?

Dipping cost a bonus action.

It doesn't really require anything else because you can have a torch or a candle in your inventory, let it fall on the ground for free, light it for free and dip for a bonus action.

It's a bit tedious and you have to remember to pick up your candle after dipping (for free), but that's how it work. Of course you can dip on any other fire sources if there is one.

You can do it outside of combats, but it's not really necessary because it really cost nothing more than a bonus action.

It last for 2 turns (nor 100% sure) and add 1D4 fire damages to all dipped weapons (even if you have 2 weapons, you dip both at the same time during the same bonus action)

Last edited by Maximuuus; 21/02/21 08:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
The latest Druid specific animations used solely for climbing ladders in wild shape form for instance. Why this design decision? Likely because Larian are so enamored with their own brand of silly fun they are thinking how to fit D&D into it rather than the other way around. They could have saved lots of resources by making the wild shape automatically turn back to humanoid form while climbing ladders and turn back to beast form when done. Without penalizing the number of wild shapes. Simple, elegant, immersive, quality of life, resources not wasted on something that likely always will be unimmersive - because giant bulls climbing ladders is plain dumb.

What is so immersive about the basics of druidic magic warping because you encountered a ladder? Like talk about changing D&D to suit a game!

Also, I want to just beg you to stop talking about resources in this way. The time put into giving these models ladder animations is probably pretty trivial, it's not as if they had someone actually mocap a bull climbing a ladder you know, they just had an animator do it while he was doing all the other animation for the bull. What do you think is the total cost of that? Minutes? Hours?

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It's silly. It's unnecessary. It devalues finding a weapon that has the inherent quality anyway. Or maybe makes it sillier - a fiery sword of ice, anyone?

Poison should still be included since that is a standard and expected thieve's tool. Being able to use poison as a bonus action might be a bit strong; full action maybe?

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
The latest Druid specific animations used solely for climbing ladders in wild shape form for instance. Why this design decision? Likely because Larian are so enamored with their own brand of silly fun they are thinking how to fit D&D into it rather than the other way around. They could have saved lots of resources by making the wild shape automatically turn back to humanoid form while climbing ladders and turn back to beast form when done. Without penalizing the number of wild shapes. Simple, elegant, immersive, quality of life, resources not wasted on something that likely always will be unimmersive - because giant bulls climbing ladders is plain dumb.

Quality of life, I don't want to wait for an animation to play for my druid to shift out of animal form, climb the ladder then shift back. It also creates new logical problems. If my character can briefly shift out and back into form to climb a ladder why can't she do the same to cast a spell or use an item? Having animals climb in animal form is the quickest easiest solution.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Karanshade
can someone more knowledgeable than me put the details of the dipping mechanism ? I think it cost a bonus action iirc, so potentially movement as well to get close to the source , duration is ? is it easy to set it up before a fight ?

Dipping cost a bonus action.

It doesn't really require anything else because you can have a torch or a candle in your inventory, let it fall on the ground for free, light it for free and dip for a bonus action.

It's a bit tedious and you have to remember to pick up your candle after dipping (for free), but that's how it work. Of course you can dip on any other fire sources if there is one.

You can do it outside of combats, but it's not really necessary because it really cost nothing more than a bonus action.

It last for 2 turns (nor 100% sure) and add 1D4 fire damages to all dipped weapons (even if you have 2 weapons, you dip both at the same time during the same bonus action)


Thanks for the through information !
Then at least we can safely assume that the 'torch/candle' trick will not last. If DOS2 is of any clue, I think the "loot for free in fight" is a pure EA mechanism not meant to stay.

Last edited by Karanshade; 21/02/21 11:42 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
- At the moment it's really not immersive at all. A Sword that ignite in the flame of a candle looks really silly to me.
Agreed
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- Still about immersion, I don't like that the entire weapon is burning (thinking about bows and crossbows first). That's totally WTF especially when our weapons are sheathed but still burning.
Yes, this is stupid. Sheathing the weapon should cancel the fire (also hitting someone with it) Bows should never be on fire, only the arrows
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- It devalue the utility of a magical fire weapon, and I like magical fire swords.
The spells Flame Blade and Flame Arrows will most likely be pointless and I guess we won't be finding magical fire weapons
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- I'm sad the AI can't use dipping. It gives us a powerfull and easy advantage. It contribute to the easy difficulty of the game.
Anything we can do the enemies should also be able to do. Perhaps make this one of the menu options for smarter AI
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- I find it too easy at the moment. This is something you can nearly use for free at each combats. This doesn't feel special at all. I think it should be a tactical choice.
Agreed. I think it should require an already existing flame source nearby, not a portable magic candle that never goes out.
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According to me it should require a material in your inventory.
This would be a great step to more immersion and to a more balanced and interresting mechanic (considering we wouldn't find this items everywhere).
Yes. Maybe a bottle of oil. Maybe could cast the Grease spell on weapons or dip them in a greased area. (Grease being flammable is usually DM dependent but could work in this case)

Can't really say pros and cons without coming across as super negative and critical (hint - I do not see any pros with the current candle cheese.) You covered most of my issues with it, only a couple of things I would add.
It should cost an action to light weapons.
Standing next to a source of fire should remove disadvantage from enemies attacking you if they do not have darkvision and the combat is in a dark area.

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Dipping a weapon in poison is cool. But should be impossibkle in Combat and be prepared BEFORE combat starts. After all we are talking about a dangerous Process where you have to avoid contact with the poison at all cost. And carefully coating a blade is NEVER done in 6 seconds.

Dipping in fire or ICE is plain stupid and nonsense. It totaly devaluates Items with that feature. Long gone are the DnD days where the crowd stood in awe when a high lvl palladin draw its sword and it errupts in holy flames........ In larians game a farmer can hold a sword over an freaking candle and there you go..... welcome to Larians world.

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Originally Posted by Worm
What is so immersive about the basics of druidic magic warping because you encountered a ladder? Like talk about changing D&D to suit a game!

Only hardcore Druid playing D&D fans would likely see it as the warping of some rigid "basics of druid magic". Even so, almost everyone would see it as warping basic physics itself. What is objectively more immersion breaking?

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Also, I want to just beg you to stop talking about resources in this way. The time put into giving these models ladder animations is probably pretty trivial, it's not as if they had someone actually mocap a bull climbing a ladder you know, they just had an animator do it while he was doing all the other animation for the bull. What do you think is the total cost of that? Minutes? Hours?

Wow. You have an entirely unrealistic view of how fast things can be done. Larian has likely already been working for WEEKS on this and they are far from done. Minutes? Hours? You honestly think this was something Larian threw together on an impulse while Swen was polishing and donning his armor? Haha. Moreover, this work is not anything near finished presently and will require more work with the expanding number of beasts made available to the Druid. Consider how slow the improvements actually come during EA (we have gotten like one new class in EA going on six months - while many classes/subclasses implemented still aren't working properly), and you'd be a fool not to realize this rather objective waste of resources WILL impact what else will be implemented down the road. Anything non-core PHB becomes less realistic to hope for, non-PHB even more so. One can only hope it will specifically be counted AGAINST the number of wild shape beasts that are made available to the Druid itself. Resources are limited and prioritizing one thing is saying no to another.

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Originally Posted by Rack
Quality of life, I don't want to wait for an animation to play for my druid to shift out of animal form, climb the ladder then shift back. It also creates new logical problems. If my character can briefly shift out and back into form to climb a ladder why can't she do the same to cast a spell or use an item? Having animals climb in animal form is the quickest easiest solution.

This is rigid naysay thinking. You don't want to wait all of two seconds for an animation to play (an animation that could be sped up for this purpose and even be played while moving)...while likely still having to wait for longer than that in queue for your turn to climb the ladder anyway? If the Druid moves first (and animation grounded you for a second), the companions behind could easily be made to climb ahead/skip turn. No/very little time would be lost in practice.

So you consider the breaking of physics itself to be less of a logical problem than taking slight liberties with some small specific D&D rules for quality of life purposes? Wowsies. Larian has already taken more liberties with their implementation of wild shape, I don't see you complaining about this. You can easily go from one shape to another in combat, DISMISSING a shape is now FREE, and changing in combat is a bonus action instead of D&D RAW full-action. And how is this much different from dismissing a shape during climbing ladders (and regaining it immediately after)? Besides, if you listened to the D&D rep on the panel of hell stream, he explained the reasons for limiting number of wild shapes are that tabletop D&D Druids have virtually unlimited selection of wild shapes that potentially could break encounters. This is not the case where Larian controls every encounter. A very quick change could be explained/roleplayed however you want...changing back to natural form for a short time and your body still is in flux for instance.

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Originally Posted by Zarna
Yes, this is stupid. Sheathing the weapon should cancel the fire (also hitting someone with it) Bows should never be on fire, only the arrows

Agreed. But not even the whole arrow, just the pointy part of it. This would be the only dipping that isn't directly immersion breaking given the realism of wood burning.

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Anything we can do the enemies should also be able to do. Perhaps make this one of the menu options for smarter AI

Agreed. This has been an additional point of contention for me. Whatever the player can do that isn't grounded in something logically unique, the AI should be able to do. Not only for the sake of challenge in combat, but for realism and immersion of combat.

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Standing next to a source of fire should remove disadvantage from enemies attacking you if they do not have darkvision and the combat is in a dark area.

Agreed. There is a noticeable lack of responsiveness to environmental effects/changes in general. For instance, the early encounter with bandits at the ruin where the halfling archer is standing on wooden boxes. If you destroy this box, at least with the Mage Hand, the halfling will act is nothing happened and resume his position on the ground. The lack of realistic reactions & effects all contribute to making the game less immersive than it could easily be.

Last edited by Seraphael; 22/02/21 10:38 AM.
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Zarna
Yes, this is stupid. Sheathing the weapon should cancel the fire (also hitting someone with it) Bows should never be on fire, only the arrows

Agreed. But not even the whole arrow, just the pointy part of it. This would be the only dipping that isn't directly immersion breaking given the realism of wood burning.
Yes, this is what I meant to say. smile

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Only hardcore Druid playing D&D fans would likely see it as the warping of some rigid "basics of druid magic". Even so, almost everyone would see it as warping basic physics itself. What is objectively more immersion breaking?
My druid being able to magically transform as much as he wants as long as ladders are involved is more immersion breaking. Having a bear climb a ladder is literally the elegant solution. I'd even prefer the animals just jumping the distance than seeing my druid constantly transform to climb ladders, like in Godhand.
https://twitter.com/lacquerleaks/status/1003411446607241216

Originally Posted by Seraphael
Wow. You have an entirely unrealistic view of how fast things can be done. Larian has likely already been working for WEEKS on this and they are far from done. Minutes? Hours? You honestly think this was something Larian threw together on an impulse while Swen was polishing and donning his armor? Haha. Moreover, this work is not anything near finished presently and will require more work with the expanding number of beasts made available to the Druid. Consider how slow the improvements actually come during EA (we have gotten like one new class in EA going on six months - while many classes/subclasses implemented still aren't working properly), and you'd be a fool not to realize this rather objective waste of resources WILL impact what else will be implemented down the road. Anything non-core PHB becomes less realistic to hope for, non-PHB even more so. One can only hope it will specifically be counted AGAINST the number of wild shape beasts that are made available to the Druid itself. Resources are limited and prioritizing one thing is saying no to another.

I can't tell if you didn't read what I said or are just misrepresenting it, but I'm literally talking about the ladder climbing animations. That's what you brought up as being a waste of resources, and that's what I'm talking about. Obviously I'm not saying the entire druid implementation took hours, I'm saying the climbing animations took that long. Further, time spent on animations doesn't mean less time spent on class implementations or bug fixes, I'm going to guess the animators primarily animate.

If you can't be bothered to read my replies and respond in good faith just leave them alone, thank you.

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well if they make it in line with poison - consumable i have no problem with it. as is i reckon it kind of brakes the new druid fire weapon spell as well but i have yet to see that in action.

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Originally Posted by Lastman
well if they make it in line with poison - consumable i have no problem with it. as is i reckon it kind of brakes the new druid fire weapon spell as well but i have yet to see that in action.

Maybe, dipping only lasts three rounds and gives a 1d4 bonus fire damage. I haven't watched the vid but it might be possible to apply dipping on top of the spell.

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The druid fire weapon spell deal 3D6 damages and is limited by your concentration. 3D6 is an average of 10.5 damages.

A 1D12 2H weapon + 1D4 additionnal damages is 9.

According to me the problem is dual wield because you can dip your two weapons at the same time.
2*1D6 + 1D4 average at 12 for a bonus action. This is too much and dual wield looks pretty OP.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 22/02/21 08:26 PM.
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I'm not experienced with 5e, and I've only had the game 6 days, but I'm already 99% sure they only added this feature to give you something to do with your bonus action if there isn't a convenient cliff to shove someone off. Not the worst idea in the world but the implementation is clumsy as all Hells.

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