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Dipping weapons is an insanely interesting concept, but at the moment I dont find frequent enough, and/or beneficial enough situations to use it. If the benefits were buffed some, i'd look out for more options for it. This being said i think its a potential cure for duel wielding, since it has significantly less damage then two hands it may be interesting to shift the mechanic over to two-one handed weapon style (duel wield) as a native unlock for the game play style, and potentially a way to fix the massive differential in damage between it and two handed weapons (obviously removing the option from other specs etc).

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I've posted on this before, but personally, I like the idea of coating weapons/arrows and dipping same, but would love to see some limitations, including some connection with classes.

Poison seems most appropriate for rogues, rangers, druids and perhaps certain casters with alchemical skills.

Preparing your weapon with poison prior to combat should be possible if the appropriate character has poison in their inventory - The poison should be active for whatever period is determined (2 rounds at the moment) but need to be reapplied once that period is up, once that combat set piece is up, or next rest - whichever applies. Normally I would apply the same rules to arrows, but as we don't have normal arrows in BG3, it should be applied to the bow, as if applied to an arrow.

Grease, Tar, alchemists fire or whatever you choose to call it should also be limited, perhaps to steel weapons, used by fighter/clerical classes and maybe allow rogues to be the only class that can use both poison and the fire causing element. Again it should be use limited as above (number of turns/end of combat set piece/next rest. Fire applications should require the additional action of 'dipping' to set the substance coating the weapon on fire.

Wooden weapons should not be flammable - excluding bows, where the action of coating the bow is actually coating the metal arrowhead - again only because we currently have arrowless bows. Dipping of previously prepared 'flame' weapons can continue as already in place - bonus action or whatever.

There is no justification for imbuing weapons with any other damage - frost, lightning, toilet water - other than through a spell.

Weapons magically enhanced with some form of damage should not be enhanced by chemical fire means - let the damn magical ability interfere with coating it.

Poisoning a magically enhanced weapon should be solely within the purview of a higher level rogue, and solely for personal use.

Amount of damage for poison/chemical fire enhancement should be less than than provided by similarly magically enhanced weapons - the classic flaming longsword for example.

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Originally Posted by Worm
My druid being able to magically transform as much as he wants as long as ladders are involved is more immersion breaking. Having a bear climb a ladder is literally the elegant solution. I'd even prefer the animals just jumping the distance than seeing my druid constantly transform to climb ladders, like in Godhand.
https://twitter.com/lacquerleaks/status/1003411446607241216

You are WRONG. Taking huge liberties with physics as opposed to being flexible with a specific D&D rules that Larian is already being flexible with is OBJECTIVELY the bigger of two evils. Having a super-sized wolf or bull climb a spindly ladder is OBJECTIVELY more immersion breaking than a counter not ticking down while climbing ladders for quality of life purposes. Mentioning a (two-ton super sized polar-) bear climbing a spindly ladder as "literally the elegant solution" is misrepresenting the issue. This is a quality of life implementation that is as strong as its weakest link. A fact you're keen to disregard.

Having animals "just jumping the distance" is a solution I've considered, but it too comes with issues: Some ladders are really tall/long, if beasts are suddenly capable of jumping 2-3 times as far as they normally would be able to just because there's a ladder, then how is this any less immersion breaking than a counter not ticking down? Then again breaking physics kind of is your forte lol. If all beasts are given vast jumping abilities in general to make this logically consistent, then the use of specific beasts like the bird may become superfluous. When all shapes have similar abilities, each lacks in flavor or one becomes clearly better than others.


Originally Posted by Seraphael
I can't tell if you didn't read what I said or are just misrepresenting it, but I'm literally talking about the ladder climbing animations. That's what you brought up as being a waste of resources, and that's what I'm talking about. Obviously I'm not saying the entire druid implementation took hours, I'm saying the climbing animations took that long. Further, time spent on animations doesn't mean less time spent on class implementations or bug fixes, I'm going to guess the animators primarily animate.

If you can't be bothered to read my replies and respond in good faith just leave them alone, thank you.

Stop projecting. I clearly stated I was talking about the specific issue of wild shaped beasts climbing ladders. You not only stated that these animations could be done in a matter of hours, you claimed it could be done in MINUTES. You even objected to my very mentioning of this as a finite resource that is mismanaged in my opinion. If a thing could be done in minutes or hours, it could be done on an impulse while Swen was polishing and putting on his armor. This is not a bad faith misrepresentation as you claim, this is your understanding of reality, your logic, put in context to depict how in fact YOU are the one who consistently misrepresent. Misrepresent the amount of resources this in reality requires and misrepresent me. I gave additional context with EA just adding a single class in over 5 months while several subclasses still being either not implemented or broken to give you a sense of much-needed realism.

Animators primarily work on animation yes and there are potential bottlenecks that may or may not lead to developers of any stripe at various points being free to perceivably "waste resources". This is seemingly a valid point, but a large conjecture based on the assumption these animations are a trifle thing and that animators conceivably suddenly run out of work/areas to improve. For instance, Larian stated they hoped to add more wild shape beasts down the line, in reality this means the ladder animations has already been prioritized above adding more beasts. They are prioritized over adding additional monsters too. They are prioritized over stuff that would benefit the many as opposed to benefitting the few...players of a niche class that also aren't worried about immersion breaking physics. Combat animations for dodge and block for instance, or for reactiveness to being flanked are features that has been repeatedly requested (unlike bulls climbing ladders I might add), that would bring more variety and immersion to combat while also address with how missing instills less of a sense of RNG imposed failure that many have been vocal on as lowering their enjoyment of the game.

Resources aren't infinite and one implementation realistically comes at a cost of another in a game that has an extreme amount of material to draw from.

Last edited by Seraphael; 23/02/21 10:59 AM.
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I'm sorry to ask that but could you please stay focussed on dipping ? smile

It looks like it's not related anymore^^

Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/02/21 11:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by fallenj
I've said this before, dipping is just another version of poison. You are coating your weapon with a additional substance to get a effect. If they made a oil to coat your weapon so you can dip it probably be more in line with poison even more.

This please, iron doesn't burn, other substances do. Make us use cheap substances like oil on our weapons, then we can ignite them even from a candle. No oil, no dipping, make it limited by the amount of oil we have.

Bows shouldn't burn, tips of arrows should, I know we don't have arrows, but dipping the bow should put the effect on the arrows.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
.......

i think ladder animations are ridiculous as well. But i'm playing unchained anyway (that system suxs as well:) so i'm just not gonna use ladders or if i have to i'm gonna waste the wild shape counter for it.
Nothing new, LArian finished game for me will be don't use 50% of the features... Why? because they are immersion breaking and lame. Hopefully i don't get bored and quit like i did for DOs 2.

Last edited by Lastman; 23/02/21 11:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm sorry to ask that but could you please stay focussed on dipping ? smile

It looks like it's not related anymore^^
Sorry! Everything is inter-connected and I keep falling for digressions. Won't derail the issue further.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm sorry to ask that but could you please stay focussed on dipping ? smile

It looks like it's not related anymore^^
Sorry! Everything is inter-connected and I keep falling for digressions. Won't derail the issue further.
yep it is inter-connected because they keep doing the same thing over and over. the dip thing came from the same mind as the ladder animation. It's so transparent, you can just know it was approved by the same game designer. This is why i think we will not change anything in the long run...hopefully i'm wrong.

Last edited by Lastman; 23/02/21 11:29 AM.
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Not a huge fan. The only practical downside is the timesink and the extra clicks, but I still don't like the feel. I'd rather the flaming sword be something out of legend like Surtr or an archangel type motif, since its a pretty high magic universe and flamming weapons are for sure fantastical.

If you cover a bladed weapon in oil or naphtha or whatever, light it on fire, and then start banging it against stuff, it will lose its temper and its edge and is more likely to break. If its a weapon with wooden components its likely to ruin the weapon. Dipping it in acid, also seems like probably not the best call for keeping things keen hehe.

I suppose with normal equipment, dipping might have a chance of breaking the weapon or reducing it to a damaged status that's less effective over time? That at least would be some kind of offset, even if it only happened occasionally.

Poisoned weapons feel a little bit different to me, because it seems to make a bit more practical sense from an efficacy or weapons maintenance or overall believability standpoint.

Dipping a weapon in Dragon's blood I can definitely get behind though. That should do something for sure, if we ever to get to the killing dragons stage.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 23/02/21 12:09 PM.
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Other opinions before I try to summarize the feedbacks / ideas of improvement ?

Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/02/21 10:58 PM.
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I don't mind dipping, but I think that some circumstances (fire) should require extra items (rags) and additional time to perform. Some surfaces (acid) should damage the projectile and thus reduce the damage. Some other surfaces (electricity) should just be completely unable to use for dipping... ever.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Other opinions before I try to summarize the feedbacks / ideas of improvement ?

My opinion is remove it, but it can be modded, so it's whatever.

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Hi. I dislike the dipping as-is for both thematic and mechanical reasons.

The thematic reason is that dipping a non-flammable object into a fire of any size - even a candle flame - feels "gamey" and reduces immersion.

The mechanical reason is that it encourages constantly dipping your weapons. You end up doing extra things within / before each combat to get that little bonus, making combat less fluid.

What would be feel more realistic is what others have said - coating it in oil or some other viscous / flammable substance, allowing it to later be ignited for a short period of time. In terms of the mechanical process, perhaps a simple solution is that you can only dip if you have oil in your inventory. When you touch the flame, an oil flask is consumed. However, since the game already tracks flame/poison state on weapons, I can see a new state "greased", that can later transform to enflamed when touching fire.

Last edited by SingleShot; 28/02/21 07:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Other opinions before I try to summarize the feedbacks / ideas of improvement ?
The problem with dipping weapons is manyfold. Unimmersive/unrealistic, somewhat micromanagement heavy, free resource that guarantees bonus damage and where the practical limitation for use is the player's patience/boredom level and finally superfluous given the large amount of D&D material with overlapping effect. This contributes to needless complexity to a game that already is prohibitively complex.

Example of D&D alternatives (all of which are more immersive):

Green-Flame Blade/Booming Blade (non-PHB cantrips)
Flame Blade (2nd level druid spell, suggested and already implemented)
Elemental Weapon (3rd level paladin spell)
Flame Arrows (3rd level druid, ranger, sorcerer, wizard spell)
Flame Tongue (magical weapons)
Alchemist Fire (flasks to coat weapons or explosive barrels)
Poison (flasks to coat weapons)
Oil (flasks to coat weapons)

Suggestions for change:

1. Limit to bows/crossbows only.
2. Only enflame parts of the weapons the wielder isn't touching (change fire bows to fire arrows/bolts).
3. Arrows/bolt enflammable by torch fire and larger sources of fire. Bonus action to perform, lasting one-two rounds.
4. REMOVE candle. This is the worst offender by far. Immersion breaking and clunky.
5. Implement oil flask. This could be an expandable resource used to enflame ALL weapons. Standard action to perform, lasting two rounds. One oil barrel could ie. be turned into 5 oil flasks.
6. No chance of setting enemies on fire unless vulnerable to fire.
7. Whatever the player can do that is mundane in nature, let the AI do. Goblins using fire arrows would be a homage to BG1's kobold commandos smile

Last edited by Seraphael; 28/02/21 09:05 PM.
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Hey Maximuuus – you probably have a bunch of topics lined up for this focus series, but can you please add spell preparation to the list? Specifically the fact that you can swap out your prepared spells at any time. It’s a fundamental change to everything D&D (including earlier BG editions), and I’m curious how people feel about that.

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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
I agree with the oil suggestion. If you had to coat your weapon in oil as an action and then ignite it on a bonus action next turn it'd be a lot more immersive and balanced at the same time.
This is what I would like to see too. Depending on manpower, there could be different 'dips' too (so a candle will only light something dipped in flammable oils, but an oil barrel's surface left after exploding can let you dip an arrowhead into it) but at the very least an 'economy' would be welcomed-placing and lighting the candle both costing actions (bonus and standard?)

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Giving my +1 to the OP. Exactly right. Flaming swords are great visual but the candle is just immersion breaking. One of those rules, like healing food, that I just ignore and wish was out of the game.

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Dipping does not strike me as something you would actually do in general combat. I can see an assassin making a specially prepared elixir for a one-shot use with a hollow-point stiletto every now and then, but wading into a melee with a sword, paintbrush, and a bucket of grease just does not seem like a good idea to me. In fact, that same bucket of grease could be turned against you if an enemy decided to ignite it!

I won't dip my doughnuts, either, even if that would give me extra healing. I'm not a dipper.

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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Hey Maximuuus – you probably have a bunch of topics lined up for this focus series, but can you please add spell preparation to the list? Specifically the fact that you can swap out your prepared spells at any time. It’s a fundamental change to everything D&D (including earlier BG editions), and I’m curious how people feel about that.

Yeah that's definitely something we could/should talk about. This is a huge issue to me but I guess it's a part of the resting system.

Not sure in which thread we could talk about it but I'll probably find something.

There's a lot for great feedback and ideas here about dipping.
I'll try to summarize "soon" (patch 4 is live, I'm playing more than writing for a few days^^)

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Ok so I read the topic again and it looks like most of you have the same feeling than I.
Of course this is a summary. If you wan't to know why people find dipping immersion breaking or too easy, read the thread.

FEEDBACKS
Lots of us are fine with / like the "concept" but no one aswering this thread looks to really like how it work.

- Dipping is immersion breaking
- Dipping devalue a few spells
- Dipping devalue the magical items we could find (i.e flame tongue)
- Some of us never use dipping (usually because it's tedious)
- Dipping is too easy. No cost. No tactical trade off. Just easy additional damages.
- Dipping is another advantage we have on the ennemy
- Dualwieid have 2 bonuses out of 1 bonus action


SUGGESTIONS
- Maybe the entire weapons shouldn't burn, especially bows and crossbows (tips of arrows/bolts)
- Maybe it shoudn't be possible with wooden weapons
- Maybe it should require an item to coat metal weapons first
- Maybe it should be an action or an action + a bonus action (coating + dipping)
- Maybe it should be possible on specific fire (no torch and candle, campfire, magical fire,
- Maybe we shoudln't be able to dip weapons that are already overhauled by magic
- Maybe it should be class related


RELATED
- Poison is probably a bot too OP
- What's going to happen to the monk ? (class balance)


NOW - HOW TO COMPILE THIS INTO A CONSISTENT SUGGESTION ?


Who's trying ?

Last edited by Maximuuus; 03/03/21 06:07 AM.
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