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#758758 23/02/21 01:07 AM
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Seriously, is this the new superman in town ?

This guy can transform, die and then retransform back and be alive again .. it can wear light / medium armour, once in animal form, it inherit the animal abilities (dump strength and walk around in polar bear). it can deal good damage, tank and heal .. for real


How's a rogue compare to a druid ?! or a cleric versus a druid ? how about a polar bear against my STR rangers ?

perhaps, I should just give up and make a druid ..

Thoughts ?

smile beyond !!!


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I think it will be strong for the four levels we have available to us in EA. At level 5 melee classes will get two attacks with the attack action, and the druid will really not be competitive in melee damage anymore.

Also, I don't know if we saw AC in bear form, but I believe that it will be quite low, so the druid will be a big target in animal form. Without the ability to survive "death" by transforming back I think that the low armor would make transformation a death trap.

I suppose that we will be able to find out for sure soon.

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Lmao is this a joke? You do realise it's just basically a druid from 5e?

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@scousesorcerer1: yeah pan & paper 5e, but in game I had this "illusions" about game balance. They did boosted the ranger aren't they ?

@dwig, yep the bear will be an easy target with lots of HP + good attack, and then transform back when it dies to continue the fight.

oh, and try taking over the grove on the evil path grin grin

Well, this is why we have an EA, let's explore and report back feedback, I guess.

Last edited by Starlights; 23/02/21 01:36 AM.

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I am all for every class shinning as much as possible, it is impossible for a class to be too good, only for other classes to not be good enough.

Originally Posted by Starlights
oh, and try taking over the grove on the evil path grin grin

Work smart, not hard. First, make the tieflings and the druids kill each other, then finish the survivors.

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Originally Posted by Starlights
Seriously, is this the new superman in town ?

This guy can transform, die and then retransform back and be alive again .. it can wear light / medium armour, once in animal form, it inherit the animal abilities (dump strength and walk around in polar bear). it can deal good damage, tank and heal .. for real


How's a rogue compare to a druid ?! or a cleric versus a druid ? how about a polar bear against my STR rangers ?

perhaps, I should just give up and make a druid ..

Thoughts ?

smile beyond !!!

Your first mistake is thinking there's anything remotely concerned with balance in this game as is.

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Originally Posted by Starlights
Seriously, is this the new superman in town ?

This guy can transform, die and then retransform back and be alive again .. it can wear light / medium armour, once in animal form, it inherit the animal abilities (dump strength and walk around in polar bear). it can deal good damage, tank and heal .. for real


How's a rogue compare to a druid ?! or a cleric versus a druid ? how about a polar bear against my STR rangers ?

perhaps, I should just give up and make a druid ..

Thoughts ?

smile beyond !!!

You should give up and play a druid. It's new content, it's got hype. I hope a lot of people play it, give Larian the data they want. If the way it is currently implemented present any egregious balance issues, that should become even more apparent, and necessary adjustments can be made.

Plus, I can't be the only one who took Halsin literally everywhere. It's not hard to get him out of Shattered Sanctum without killing the Goblin Leaders. He's already above the level cap, so, even without the new spells, likely meaner than any Druid we'll be able to make.
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yes, I noticed his stats once. I thought at the time that Halsin wanted me to take out the goblins leaders only to test me ... hihi

You have the right mindset, and will definitely put the rogue aside and embark on a Druid journey when the day will come.

thanks for sharing smile


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So the druid's strengths are obvious at a glance. I'll go ahead and list off its major weaknesses so that your fears might be put to rest.

1. Druid forms have a lot of HP because that is how they tank. Their AC is crushingly low though. That bear form should have an AC of about 11 and their best AC forms top out around 13-14. This means they get hit by almost every attack thrown their way, which in turn knocks them out of form frequently enough that their true HP is still vulnerable if they get focus fired.

2. Their animal forms don't have a very good hit chance as a general rule and at level 5 they don't get a second attack, so their melee damage lags far behind dedicated melee classes like fighter, barbarian, or rogue.

3. They can't cast spells in animal form until the 18th level, which means that if they lose concentration in animal form they can't re-cast a spell without exiting their form and losing that wildshape charge until their next rest. This might be an issue with how available short and long rests are in BG3 but that is an issue all classes currently have. It also means they can't make use of most of their cantrips or cast emergency support or control spells without abandoning their shape. To play a druid optimally you really need to be good at assessing when to use your wildshapes and when to hang back and play as a caster as you can't easily do both at once.

4. Most of their best spells are concentration based which means they're easy to shut down with focus fire. This has the benefit of letting them concentrate in animal form to boost their wildshape performance, but their low AC also makes them way more likely to lose concentration. It also limits their potential magical damage output compared to a wizard or warlock, as the druid is more tailored to control and support.

5. Their caster form is probably going to have middling AC too. Medium armor... But they can't wear metal. That means no mail or half-plate or what have you. Hide is the best armor they can manage and it is only 12+. So assuming optimized Dex and a shield they're sitting at only 16AC. Nothing ground breaking. I dunno if Larian is going to enforce this rule or not, but it is how 5e handles it. This could also change if we find a suit of dragonscale armor or an ironbark breastplate later in the game, but so far nothing like that exists in Act 1.

6. Speaking of AC, being a druid doesn't mean you can totally dump Dex or Con. You need Con to maintain concentration on spells when not in beast form and you need Dex to make sure your caster form's AC isn't abysmal, as you'll likely get knocked out of form at least occasionally. Likely while surrounded by enemies. Strength is an obvious dump stat, but what full caster can't safely dump strength and still be good?


All in all druid is a very strong class. Particularly moon druid which has a reputation for being OP at the very early levels. It evens out at levels 5 and up though.

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@SaurianDruid, that's quite a good summary, you know a lots. the way you describing it sounds fair. It looks like beyond level 4, we will look at classes differently. Time will tell.

thanks for sharing ! smile


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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
So the druid's strengths are obvious at a glance. I'll go ahead and list off its major weaknesses so that your fears might be put to rest.

1. Druid forms have a lot of HP because that is how they tank. Their AC is crushingly low though. That bear form should have an AC of about 11 and their best AC forms top out around 13-14. This means they get hit by almost every attack thrown their way, which in turn knocks them out of form frequently enough that their true HP is still vulnerable if they get focus fired.

2. Their animal forms don't have a very good hit chance as a general rule and at level 5 they don't get a second attack, so their melee damage lags far behind dedicated melee classes like fighter, barbarian, or rogue.

3. They can't cast spells in animal form until the 18th level, which means that if they lose concentration in animal form they can't re-cast a spell without exiting their form and losing that wildshape charge until their next rest. This might be an issue with how available short and long rests are in BG3 but that is an issue all classes currently have. It also means they can't make use of most of their cantrips or cast emergency support or control spells without abandoning their shape. To play a druid optimally you really need to be good at assessing when to use your wildshapes and when to hang back and play as a caster as you can't easily do both at once.

4. Most of their best spells are concentration based which means they're easy to shut down with focus fire. This has the benefit of letting them concentrate in animal form to boost their wildshape performance, but their low AC also makes them way more likely to lose concentration. It also limits their potential magical damage output compared to a wizard or warlock, as the druid is more tailored to control and support.

5. Their caster form is probably going to have middling AC too. Medium armor... But they can't wear metal. That means no mail or half-plate or what have you. Hide is the best armor they can manage and it is only 12+. So assuming optimized Dex and a shield they're sitting at only 16AC. Nothing ground breaking. I dunno if Larian is going to enforce this rule or not, but it is how 5e handles it. This could also change if we find a suit of dragonscale armor or an ironbark breastplate later in the game, but so far nothing like that exists in Act 1.

6. Speaking of AC, being a druid doesn't mean you can totally dump Dex or Con. You need Con to maintain concentration on spells when not in beast form and you need Dex to make sure your caster form's AC isn't abysmal, as you'll likely get knocked out of form at least occasionally. Likely while surrounded by enemies. Strength is an obvious dump stat, but what full caster can't safely dump strength and still be good?


All in all druid is a very strong class. Particularly moon druid which has a reputation for being OP at the very early levels. It evens out at levels 5 and up though.

Point 3 is really disappointing in BG3 tbh since it means we will never be able to cast spells while shapeshifted.

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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
So the druid's strengths are obvious at a glance. I'll go ahead and list off its major weaknesses so that your fears might be put to rest.

1. Druid forms have a lot of HP because that is how they tank. Their AC is crushingly low though. That bear form should have an AC of about 11 and their best AC forms top out around 13-14. This means they get hit by almost every attack thrown their way, which in turn knocks them out of form frequently enough that their true HP is still vulnerable if they get focus fired.
So Druids are weak after their forms are whittled down and then focus-fired? That's not a weakness for a full-caster, let alone a major one haha.

Let's add some nuance to the propaganda shall we? smile

Multiclass dip level 1 Barbarian, or level 1 Monk for Unarmored Defense, and you add CON or WIS modifiers to unarmored AC in any shape. A lowish level Dire Wolf/Monk would have AC 18-19 (assuming 18-20 WIS). An Earth Elemental wildshape (level 10-11), would have 17 AC base + 4 from Barbarian dip or +5 for Monk dip (20 WIS) for AC 21-22 total. Clearly we are not talking about crushingly low AC, but rather strong AC for a Druid who cares enough to strengthen his wild shapes.

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5. Their caster form is probably going to have middling AC too. Medium armor... But they can't wear metal. That means no mail or half-plate or what have you. Hide is the best armor they can manage and it is only 12+. So assuming optimized Dex and a shield they're sitting at only 16AC. Nothing ground breaking.

Barkskin (level 2 spell that can be up infinitely assuming it has the Hex/Hunter's Mark treatment) + shield = AC 18...even assuming NEGATIVE DEX modifier.

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6. Speaking of AC, being a druid doesn't mean you can totally dump Dex or Con. You need Con to maintain concentration on spells when not in beast form and you need Dex to make sure your caster form's AC isn't abysmal, as you'll likely get knocked out of form at least occasionally. Likely while surrounded by enemies. Strength is an obvious dump stat, but what full caster can't safely dump strength and still be good?

This is at best commonality for all caster, for virtually all non-casters, and not really a weakness at all. In reality though, a Druid has more freedom to dump just about *any* physical stat as wild shape physical stats overrides the Druid's while also having access to Barkskin spell. Having lowish AC (which they arguably don't have) after being knocked out of beast form is again not really much of a weakness. To help further with concentration checks: A level 1 dip into Barbarian would also add Constitution proficiency, while Enhance Ability/Bear's Endurance spell would add Constitution advantage (and more health), or grab Resilient feat.

Last edited by Seraphael; 24/02/21 10:49 AM.
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@San Raphael, smile

Good comments & observation !

Originally Posted by Seraphael
Multiclass dip level 1 Barbarian, or level 1 Monk for Unarmored Defense, and you add CON or WIS modifiers to unarmored AC in any shape. A lowish level Dire Wolf/Monk would have AC 18-19 (assuming 18-20 WIS). An Earth Elemental wildshape (level 10-11), would have 17 AC base + 4 from Barbarian dip or +5 for Monk dip (20 WIS) for AC 21-22 total. Clearly we are not talking about crushingly low AC, but rather strong AC for a Druid who cares enough to strengthen his wild shapes.

The moment you mentioned "multiclass", we're dragging the conversation to a totally different corner. In this post, I was pointing out the druid class as presented by the panel compare to the actual class we have in EA.

Originally Posted by Seraphael
Barkskin (level 2 spell that can be up infinitely assuming it has the Hex/Hunter's Mark treatment) + shield = AC 18...even assuming NEGATIVE DEX modifier.

Nice catch. So a decent AC. I am not expert in 5th edition, but according to this link here: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Barkskin#content - it says concentration or 1 hour ?! so it can stack with Tyr's protection ?! That's too much, take it out ..


Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
6. Speaking of AC, being a druid doesn't mean you can totally dump Dex or Con. You need Con to maintain concentration on spells when not in beast form and you need Dex to make sure your caster form's AC isn't abysmal, as you'll likely get knocked out of form at least occasionally. Likely while surrounded by enemies. Strength is an obvious dump stat, but what full caster can't safely dump strength and still be good?
AND
Originally Posted by Seraphael
This is at best commonality for all caster, for virtually all non-casters, and not really a weakness at all. In reality though, a Druid has more freedom to dump just about *any* physical stat as wild shape physical stats overrides the Druid's while also having access to Barkskin spell. Having lowish AC (which they arguably don't have) after being knocked out of beast form is again not really much of a weakness. To help further with concentration checks: A level 1 dip into Barbarian would also add Constitution proficiency, while Enhance Ability/Bear's Endurance spell would add Constitution advantage (and more health), or grab Resilient feat.

According to the 5th edition rule, barkskin doesn't care about your DEX, you will get up to AC16. yeah, this is overpower .. take this out. it will ruined my rogue stereotype ..
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I'm on the side that Druids are pretty OP and sits up near the top of the 5E class hierachy, but I do want to chime in to clarify a few things.


Originally Posted by Seraphael
Let's add some nuance to the propaganda shall we? smile

Multiclass dip level 1 Barbarian, or level 1 Monk for Unarmored Defense, and you add CON or WIS modifiers to unarmored AC in any shape. A lowish level Dire Wolf/Monk would have AC 18-19 (assuming 18-20 WIS). An Earth Elemental wildshape (level 10-11), would have 17 AC base + 4 from Barbarian dip or +5 for Monk dip (20 WIS) for AC 21-22 total. Clearly we are not talking about crushingly low AC, but rather strong AC for a Druid who cares enough to strengthen his wild shapes.

You do not get to add unarmored defense on top of the natural armor of a wildshape form. When you wildshape as a Monk/Druid or Barbarian/Druid, you can choose to either apply your unarmored defense (with the DEX/CON stats of the wildshaped form) or, use the creatures natural armor. So high-dex wildshapes (i.e. Air Elemental) with monk unarmored defense would be the way to go to maximize AC in wildshape (but you can't use that with shields in humanoid form).

This ruling is explained in the official rules answer here: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-january-2016

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Here are some ways to calculate your base AC:

Unarmored: 10 + your Dexterity modifier.
Armored: Use the AC entry for the armor you’re wearing (see PH, 145). For example, in leather armor, you calculate your AC as 11 + your Dexterity modifier, and in chain mail, your AC is simply 16.
Unarmored Defense (Barbarian): 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier.
Unarmored Defense (Monk): 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier.
Draconic Resilience (Sorcerer): 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
Natural Armor: 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your natural armor bonus. This is a calculation method typically used only by monsters and NPCs, although it is also relevant to a druid or another character who assumes a form that has natural armor.

These methods—along with any others that give you a formula for calculating your AC—are mutually exclusive; you can benefit from only one at a time. If you have access to more than one, you pick which one to use. For example, if you’re a sorcerer/monk, you can use either Unarmored Defense or Draconic Resilience, not both. Similarly, a druid/barbarian who transforms into a beast form that has natural armor can use either the beast’s natural armor or Unarmored Defense (you aren’t considered to be wearing armor with natural armor).


Originally Posted by Seraphael
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5. Their caster form is probably going to have middling AC too. Medium armor... But they can't wear metal. That means no mail or half-plate or what have you. Hide is the best armor they can manage and it is only 12+. So assuming optimized Dex and a shield they're sitting at only 16AC. Nothing ground breaking.

Barkskin (level 2 spell that can be up infinitely assuming it has the Hex/Hunter's Mark treatment) + shield = AC 18...even assuming NEGATIVE DEX modifier.

While Barkskin + shield does indeed offer a druid decent AC, it does use and cost a concentration slot.

With a +3 starting CON modifier, until you can get Warcaster, you have a 70% success for the base DC10 concentration checks. It's far from terrible, but hardly a guarantee over a course of a fight (a single casting of level 1 magic missile will likely end your concentration).

And more than any other caster, a druid needs their concentration slot - their spell list is particularly concentration heavy (because they want you to be able to use it with wildshape), especially if you want to be dealing damage. Flaming Sphere, Call Lightning, Heat Metal, Spike Growth, everything takes concentration


Originally Posted by Seraphael
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6. Speaking of AC, being a druid doesn't mean you can totally dump Dex or Con. You need Con to maintain concentration on spells when not in beast form and you need Dex to make sure your caster form's AC isn't abysmal, as you'll likely get knocked out of form at least occasionally. Likely while surrounded by enemies. Strength is an obvious dump stat, but what full caster can't safely dump strength and still be good?

This is at best commonality for all caster, for virtually all non-casters, and not really a weakness at all. In reality though, a Druid has more freedom to dump just about *any* physical stat as wild shape physical stats overrides the Druid's while also having access to Barkskin spell. Having lowish AC (which they arguably don't have) after being knocked out of beast form is again not really much of a weakness. To help further with concentration checks: A level 1 dip into Barbarian would also add Constitution proficiency, while Enhance Ability/Bear's Endurance spell would add Constitution advantage (and more health), or grab Resilient feat.

FYI - you only have the saving throw proficiencies of the class you start in. You'll need to start as a Barbarian to gain CON proficiency, which isn't a terrible idea (you'll lose your WIS proficiency but gain CON, which is an equal trade IMO). This is intentional, otherwise multiclassing would be too overpowered. Also, the Resilience (Stat) feat would be close to useless.

There is also a trade off to multiclassing. It isn't always a the clear better choice to multiclass Monk or Barbarian for a few extra points of AC.

- Firstly, you need a 13 STR to multiclass into (or out of) Barbarian - it's not an impossible price to pay, but it is stats you're taking away from DEX and CON.
- Secondly, you're delaying access to level 3 spells and wildshape progression - which is a huge power spike for most casters, including Druids.

On Multiclassing Rules:
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Character%20Advancement#content

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