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That companion's/premade player characters personal plots will leave me with feeling of deficiency. I have great hopes after what I saw in act 1 and I'm afraid that devs will not let me explore the character, their personal stories and relationships as much as I wish to. I wouldn't be surprised, it's RPG designed to play one of many PCs, not a specific character's life simulator... but like I said - I'm hungry for more after what I saw.

Last edited by Phea; 25/02/21 10:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by The_BlauerDragon
Not trying to attack you, but if you don't believe that they listened at all in the past and that they have not been listening thus far... why even be a part of the EA and be posting feedback? Just asking.
I know that they aren't likely to do exactly what I, personally, want them to do... but I have to have faith that they are listening and are taking all of our feedback into account. I have to believe that whatever game emerges from the other side of all this, that it will be infinitely better than it would have been without our input as a whole. I just... I have to.

I only came to know DOS2 when BG3 was announced, so I never followed the DOS2 EA. Retrospectively, I came to know that many complaints for DOS2 (armor system, etc..) were never addressed. There was a reddit thread that compiled all EA changes and most of them were the natural course of development rather than true direct feedback.

Originally Posted by Necrosian
Baldur's gate 2 is 20 years old now. DnD has had 3 new editions since then, changes from the originals were bound to happen. For now i don't see anything that different(given i never finished BG2), apart from turn based combat.

Why? What feedback should they listen to? People constantly nagging about turn based combat? Or how it isn't carbon copy of BG2?
While there are problems with few mechanics(height advantage), they did remove surface effects from cantrips when people asked for it. You must also remember that not all feedback is good feedback, sometimes people want changes that would be detrimental to the game as a whole.

There are many mechanics that were established by BG and is standard for CRPGs that Larian chose to not implement. There are many threads about them. And yes, BG2 does many things better than BG3 at the moment even being 20 years old. And that is the alarming factor.

If you follow the forum long enough you will see a pattern of recurrent complaints that Larian never addressed.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
2. That I'll dislike this game as much as I dislike DOS2.

3. That it'll have nothing to do with Baldur's Gate other than a forgotten realms paint job.

This!

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I think the game has a fatal flaw.
The game is catering 5e rules which ruleset is for a "too old" D&D community.
A community which is bored after decades with alignment, and race differences.
But as a gamer without D&D background, the alignment, the stories, the fluff etc. is the charme of this universe.

D&D players are bored and accept the changes to play a drow but at the same time everything outside of the "rules"
is worthless. Whats the difference between a Drow from the underdark or a Void Elf in World of Warcraft?
What the difference between a Paladin in Faerun with his Oath and a World of Warcraft Paladin with is righteousness?

The current D&D Franchise brings nothing new or exciting elements on the table for a computer player.

Last edited by Caparino; 25/02/21 01:52 PM.
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There is an insta-kill option for Dror, Minthara, the Hag, Phase Spider in the form of an easy bonus action shove with or without invisibility. It feels like Larian put this LOLIWIN cheese feature into the game and basically set up every important fight with the enticement of it being readily available.

The knockback arrows and ability to freely shove like this is clearly intended by some (humorous) design for Larian to create what they consider essential moments in the game.

I really hope there isn't always some such mechanic conveniently placed in every fight, just like this high ground advantage and backstab mess.

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That it will come out like DOS2: half-baked and unfinished, still full of LOTS of bugs on the untested content that wasn't included in EA.

This will penalize the people who play through the game on day 1 of full release, as what happened to me with DOS2, before proper fixes and bugs can be cleared. Additionally, the final pieces were noticeably weaker and were revamped over a year later with a new edition.

Knowing Larian's pace, a totally COMPLETE and vetted game might take them into 2023.

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Originally Posted by Caparino
I think the game has a fatal flaw.
The game is catering 5e rules which ruleset is for a "too old" D&D community.
A community which is bored after decades with alignment, and race differences.
But as a gamer without D&D background, the alignment, the stories, the fluff etc. is the charme of this universe.

D&D players are bored and accept the changes to play a drow but at the same time everything outside of the "rules"
is worthless. Whats the difference between a Drow from the underdark or a Void Elf in World of Warcraft?
What the difference between a Paladin in Faerun with his Oath and a World of Warcraft Paladin with is righteousness?

The current D&D Franchise brings nothing new or exciting elements on the table for a computer player.

Dude, that may make sense in your head - but not in reality.

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Great thread, OP. Way to neutralize what would be the reactions of some people who love to dismissively say: Larian will fix everything; just give them time. I agree with pretty much all the concerns that have been raised, and I don't have much faith at all that in time, when the game is in its final state, many of these concerns will have been addressed. I am in the camp that believes Larian doesn't see these concerns as flaws in its game. And so why would they fix something that they don't see as being broken or flawed?

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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
There are many mechanics that were established by BG and is standard for CRPGs that Larian chose to not implement.

Like what? I genuinely can't think of any, besides real time combat. Again i never finished BG2, it felt too clunky to play when i tried and i dropped it.

Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
And yes, BG2 does many things better than BG3 at the moment even being 20 years old. And that is the alarming factor.

Again, like what? Give me an example.

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Mine is that they aren't going to allow Character export import saves in this game. Which I feel defeats the DnD experience. Its supposed to be about playing your character in games with friends. Being able to take your previous characters gear and level to a new game or even create your own party with them for massive replay. The drop in and out as one of the awful companions is just so lazy in this day and age. I shouldn't have to start a new game, in the finished release, to play as my own characters with friends. As for the arguments of power leveling and lame excuses, they can make filters for random groups, so people cant PL your experience if you want. This is DnD, not D:OS3 (well it feels more like the later right now), but I seriously hope they add this feature, as otherwise, I wasted $120 bucks on this game for my wife and I. We dont plan on playing with randoms, just friends. This was one of the best features in BG1&2 and I just dont understand why its so frowned on by people in this forum. We all play differently. We all have different schedules. If it doesnt hurt your game and its not a labor intensive, why not want it included? Even just for gear its such a great feature. I mean you can just use cheats, but why not reward players for being creative and making their own teams. I dont want to play as the rapey vampire, or the Grumpy Gith, or any of the other bland boring NPC's in this game. I just want a DnD world to use my characters. How is this a bad thing? Please note*** I mean save import/export only for THIS GAME! Not BG1&2, not some other game, character state to character state. The main Character is always going to be the world player, so even decisions dont carry over. Again, been done before in MANY games.

Last edited by Vekkares; 25/02/21 03:01 PM.
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My worries for the complete game?
That they keep saying a real DnD game is no fun and try make alot of homebrew workarounds so it is fun in THEIR opinion.
Examples:

- DnD-Rules are not fun so we must make our own rules
- 6Man partys (like almost EVERY DND game before) is not fun
- Focus on Multiplayer instead of Single player opposed to almost every DnD game before
- Ignoring Fans and dont even talking about their issues

If you advertise a DnD game and try to make DnD Fans to spend their money on the game it should be natural that you first and foremost try to deliver a DnD game for THIS Audience.
Making a custom game with your own rules and then selling it as DnD game cause you name some Locations after places in the Forgotten Realms feels like a cash grab.

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Originally Posted by Necrosian
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
There are many mechanics that were established by BG and is standard for CRPGs that Larian chose to not implement.

Like what? I genuinely can't think of any, besides real time combat. Again i never finished BG2, it felt too clunky to play when i tried and i dropped it.

Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
And yes, BG2 does many things better than BG3 at the moment even being 20 years old. And that is the alarming factor.

Again, like what? Give me an example.

If I might interject here; it would be tricky to quantify these as they would be be based mostly on subjective opinions. From what you have said BG2 did not appeal to you, so I have to assume you feel BG3 is superior, whereas for myself BG2 is possibly my favourite game of all time and my opinion on BG3 so far is surmised by your quote: "it felt too clunky to play when i tried and i dropped it". Of course that opinion could well change by the final release and I truly hope that will be the case but as things stand, I find it quite flawed.

Off the top of my head two things which I feel were done better in the previous games were party control and inventory, for example. There are other things too but they are far more subjective.

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Originally Posted by Necrosian
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
There are many mechanics that were established by BG and is standard for CRPGs that Larian chose to not implement.

Like what? I genuinely can't think of any, besides real time combat. Again i never finished BG2, it felt too clunky to play when i tried and i dropped it.

A day/night cycle, for one. It's not glaringly absent right now because the only hub is the grove and the rest is wilderness, but i wonder how Baldur's Gate will turn out without it. Can't think of many games that did cities well, or indeed just did cities, without passage of time. It just makes them feel more alive all around.

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My biggest fears for the game are if:


1) Reactions (including held action) remains completely improper implemented or abandoned. This breaks the game on a tactical level. Reaction is a complete layer gameplay that would be a shame to remove from a class mechanic standpoint (spells like shield and counterspell, sneak attack on reaction attack, etc).

Furthermore, held action or "overwatches" is essential to keeping turnbase games "fair". I should probably start a thread on this, but without held action, anyone with superior mobility can basically just kite the enemy to death, by running in, shooting, and running away out of range into cover (out of line of sight).


2) Multi-classing is abandoned or fumbled. That would kill the replay value of this game tremendously for me. If multiclassing isn't there, we're looking at going from thousands of class combinations to perhaps only 24 (12 core classes, 2 subclasses each)


3) The chain/unchain movement system remains at launch. Not only is this system clumsy to use without offering deep benefits, I am personally of the mindset that this movement system unbalances combat for a certain segment of players. Simply put, if you're a new player or a player who can't be bothered fighting the chain system to move your characters carefully (spread them out, in formation, etc), chances are you'll start every fight in a highly disadvantageous position (clumped together on lower ground).


4) Lingering "DOS engine limitations" affecting gameplay and rules. I'm okay with Larian trying out new things and ways to make the game they want, but if some of that is strictly chosen because it's easier to implement that way in the DOS engine (which I actually think is a great engine because of the immense freedom it gives compared to Unity and IE), that is a problem. Examples I see so far:
  • Changing spears to 2 hand weapons (can't use shields) because that was how it was in DOS 2
  • The "highlight interactable objects" button only highlight some of everything you can interact with because that's how it worked in DOS
  • The terrible barter system straight from DOS (including the pay the vendor now for cheaper discounts later mechanic that's thinly hidden right now)
  • The horrendous looting system (have to loot each interactable object (some which won't be highlighted) individually)
  • The D&D unfriendly UI - terrible character sheets and messy hot bar design
  • Reactions and movement being an issue per above

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I just had a thought. What if someone tried to remake all of DOS1 into DOS2’s engine via modding?
I'd be more interested if Divine Divinity was remade.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
A day/night cycle, for one. It's not glaringly absent right now because the only hub is the grove and the rest is wilderness, but i wonder how Baldur's Gate will turn out without it. Can't think of many games that did cities well, or indeed just did cities, without passage of time. It just makes them feel more alive all around.

Wouldn't call it a mechanic more so aesthetic thing. If day/night cycle impacts gameplay in some way beyond npc spawning/despawning, like improving stealth, reducing vision to non darkvision enemies, then i would consider it a mechanic.

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My worry for the complete game is that it's going to resemble what the game is like now in any fashion.
Divinity Engine 4.0 was a mistake because it's an unoptimized bloated mess packed with too many unnecessary bells and whistles.
The game itself is filled to the brim with hand-holdy, mind-numbing cinematics that make it feel like a gross, generic, weeby JRPG.

It's just an unfocused mess, and I wish they had just put these wasted resources into Fallen Heroes instead.


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

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UI will be atrocious.

I had some other point written initially, but this one just take the cake. I will say it plainly: I don't think current hotbar design is fit for 1.0 release. It's too impractial and too tedious to use. I won't mention party control scheme and having to struggle with UI everytime I have to unchain and chain characters (well, I just did. it's bad, but not quite hotbar bad. It's tedious to use, and unreliable, but at least it doesn't require regular maintenece). And considering Larian already shipped two succesful games with this UI I am seriously worried, they will leave it as it is. And honestly, I am not sure if I can be bother to micromanage my UI with every added or changed spell on every character. UI was the main reason I refunded the game, and am waiting to see how the game develops.

Last edited by Wormerine; 25/02/21 05:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by gaymer
There is an insta-kill option for Dror, Minthara, the Hag, Phase Spider in the form of an easy bonus action shove with or without invisibility. It feels like Larian put this LOLIWIN cheese feature into the game and basically set up every important fight with the enticement of it being readily available.

The knockback arrows and ability to freely shove like this is clearly intended by some (humorous) design for Larian to create what they consider essential moments in the game.

I really hope there isn't always some such mechanic conveniently placed in every fight, just like this high ground advantage and backstab mess.

Honestly, with all the crying and yelling by certain "game journalists", they probably did this on purpose to cater to that "I just want story, not to actually be a game" crowd. It is there, you can do it, but you can also ignore it and do the fight the way it is meant to be done.

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Originally Posted by Necrosian
After replaying DOS1 and 2, i noticed few similarities both games had that i disliked.

Both games were somewhat linear in nature.

I vastly prefer somewhat linear games over non-linear sandboxes. Sandboxes are for hardcore gamers who want to lose themselves in a game for extended periods of time, while linear games are for more casual gamers looking to be entertained enough to actually complete a game. In the former, the story becomes a backdrop to the grind; your quest log becomes so long you forget/or don't even bother understanding, individual quests -- and the quest log becomes a shallow tick box checklist. The latter becomes more story driven, and you engage with the story more actively and on a deeper level. This comes at the cost somewhat of replayability, but then again...a majority of players don't even finish a game once.

My ONE BIG worry, is really MANY SMALLER worries commonly referred to as LARIAN CHEESE. These are the many immersion breaking gameplay features, that too often are unbalancing and implemented in a clunky manner, exacerbated by the fact that Larian disregard pre-existing D&D material that have none of these issues. Quite disappointed by this to be honest.

Some of these are the static camp where almost all interactions with companions are rather artificially injected, lack of day/night cycle, weapon dipping, throwing boots, throwing enemies, shove, flanking (and to a smaller extent height advantage), pickpocketing implemented as a gimmicky legalized exploit with complete disregard for any risk vs. reward mechanics. Exploits as gameplay features is a significant step down from even the simplistic law-system of the original games (Flaming Fist; "I am the law!"). I'm largely fine with "barrelmancy", just scale it back to become a situational tactical option rather than the core gameplay mechanics Larian aims for with their cheese. I want a reason why barrels of Alchemist's Fire/oil are present in any large quantity.

Beyond these "Larianisms" I also take issue with the over-focus on loot (particularly "trash loot") incentivizing pack-mule hoarding behavior. I really, really dislike the inventory system. I want more realism than being free to store 10 huge barrels in a shared inventory that can be used freely in any combat. This was my main issue with DOS2 and a significant reason I tired of the game without finishing. I would love a game with a simplified, abstracted system where your limited quick slots are your personal inventory and freely accessible in combat, with a shared orderly auto-sorting inventory reflecting somewhat realistic encumbrance limitations. This would restore some of the focus on the characters again while not feeling like some filthy professional corpse looter/pillager.

Last edited by Seraphael; 25/02/21 06:23 PM.
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