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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
My worries regarding the final game are identical to my current gripes with the EA, after patch 4 and the panel it seems that what we see now in EA is more or less what we'll get - plus content and minus (some) bugs, hopefully. I've read somewhere that they changed DOS2 (or was it 1?) rather dramatically during the EA, but that is clearly not happening with BG3.

I just can't take comments like this seriously when your not even 4 months into alpha. I mean we have no idea of what is in the works in regards to combat adjustment, or any of the other issues. For all we know, patch 5 will address it all, or patch 6....Or yes, it is always possible that they won't be addressed. But to try and act as though something as intricate as combat mechanics can be fixed and done in 4 months is just not even realistic.

I do doubt that camera controls are going to be fixed, they seem pretty standard. Using mouse/keyboard it doesn't seem to be that much of a problem, though I don't use a controller so I can't attest to issues with that. I also think overall, the romance is ok. But I would like some examples of games that has done it so much better than Larian is. Because it seems pretty industry standard for companion romance options. Hell I give them credit for having the cajones to make that Minthara cinematic and not doing the "lets do it with our armor on". Not to mention, they have to make all the romance options varied and available. Because otherwise they would be accused of not showing representation.

All the frog people into BDSM would have made their voices heard for sure.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
I just can't take comments like this seriously when your not even 4 months into alpha. I mean we have no idea of what is in the works in regards to combat adjustment, or any of the other issues.
I am basing my observation not just on the actual EA, but also the latest stream/panel. Anything can happen, but given the current data, general reception of the EA and especially that Panel from Hell 2, I stand behind what I've stated - ESPECIALLY regarding the combat system. They literally had Jeremy Crawford (the D&D rules guy) explain that you have to change things for a cRPG (no sh1t, Sherlock), before they went to showcase misty-stepping (different graphics, more-or-less the same effect) badger as one of Druid's forms.

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But to try and act as though something as intricate as combat mechanics can be fixed and done in 4 months is just not even realistic.
4 months is a long time for some basic changes/fixes - or attempts, it's EA, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, better than not changing ANYTHING in a sucky/abusable/unbalanced combat system for 4 months. Also, it can certainly be improved and already has been - by modders.

I expected at least a hint or tiny acknowledgement that there is stuff to change regarding the combat system - but we got the opposite in the latest patch & stream, even supported by Jeremy Crawford. Not even necessarily the fixes themselves, though the most broken things like height (dis)advantage and backstab can be changed trivially by Larian if even modders can do it.

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I also think overall, the romance is ok. But I would like some examples of games that has done it so much better than Larian is. Because it seems pretty industry standard for companion romance options.
If this is the industry standard, then maybe just avoid romances altogether? Or at least don't force them onto player as much... The after-battle celebration dialogues are weird & cringy AF if you haven't interacted with the (horny?) characters at all or at least not in THAT way. At the very least, they should decouple "love interest" and "approval", it makes almost no sense to have them connected (besides maybe requiring some minimal amount of approval and/or changing some lines based on its amount). At least in the case of Shadowheart, there are some flirty lines you can choose in her dialogues, choosing enough of those should trigger something, not just the fact that you've petted Scratch many times.

For instance, at least some BG2 romances were OK. Fully optional (might not even know they are there if playing for the 1st time).

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Not to mention, they have to make all the romance options varied and available. Because otherwise they would be accused of not showing representation.
No, they don't have to - they don't have to do any romances at all. But they will. Fan service, $$$, etc. I wish they either did it well or spent their time/effort elsewhere...

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Pillars of Eternity 1 was loved, but then in Pillars of Eternity 2, you had the same type of crap talking as I see in here alot, verbatim. Lack of immersion, linear, Poor development of classes, Poorly developed/implemented game mechanics...I mean any of that sounding familiar? All that even though it has a 89% rating. But the band keeps playing lol.
Huh? PoE2 linear? It’s biggest narrative downfall was its open nature. I have been on Obsidian forums since PoE2 fig campaign, and while the game received plenty of criticism (and most of it fair) none of that was there. Armor system wasn’t great solution. Ship combat and relationship systems were bad money and time sinks. Bad balance on launch. Other then that.. just narrative problems?

And considering how poorly PoE2 sold, I am afraid PoE1 wasn’t as beloved as sales indicated. Shame, both pretty darn good games.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Pillars of Eternity 1 was loved, but then in Pillars of Eternity 2, you had the same type of crap talking as I see in here alot, verbatim. Lack of immersion, linear, Poor development of classes, Poorly developed/implemented game mechanics...I mean any of that sounding familiar? All that even though it has a 89% rating. But the band keeps playing lol.
Huh? PoE2 linear? It’s biggest narrative downfall was its open nature. I have been on Obsidian forums since PoE2 fig campaign, and while the game received plenty of criticism (and most of it fair) none of that was there. Armor system wasn’t great solution. Ship combat and relationship systems were bad money and time sinks. Bad balance on launch. Other then that.. just narrative problems?

And considering how poorly PoE2 sold, I am afraid PoE1 wasn’t as beloved as sales indicated. Shame, both pretty darn good games.

Most of the stuff I looked up in regards to comments for PoE2 was reddit I think. Not going to spend literal hours scrubbing through Obsidian forms, I just spent a little over an hour looking up stuff on google, and peoples comments in regards to it after a poster her carried on about how PoE was so much better. But the gist of my comment was this, every RPG game I have ever played, there as been an aspect on the forums that LITERALLY complain about the same things (as in the ones I posted above). I mean it is so common, it is almost a meme.

Eventually, I plan on playing PoE, hell I will probably even play PoE2.

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Originally Posted by DiDiDi
I am basing my observation not just on the actual EA, but also the latest stream/panel. Anything can happen, but given the current data, general reception of the EA and especially that Panel from Hell 2, I stand behind what I've stated - ESPECIALLY regarding the combat system. They literally had Jeremy Crawford (the D&D rules guy) explain that you have to change things for a cRPG (no sh1t, Sherlock), before they went to showcase misty-stepping (different graphics, more-or-less the same effect) badger as one of Druid's forms.

4 months is a long time for some basic changes/fixes - or attempts, it's EA, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, better than not changing ANYTHING in a sucky/abusable/unbalanced combat system for 4 months. Also, it can certainly be improved and already has been - by modders.

I expected at least a hint or tiny acknowledgement that there is stuff to change regarding the combat system - but we got the opposite in the latest patch & stream, even supported by Jeremy Crawford. Not even necessarily the fixes themselves, though the most broken things like height (dis)advantage and backstab can be changed trivially by Larian if even modders can do it.

If this is the industry standard, then maybe just avoid romances altogether? Or at least don't force them onto player as much... The after-battle celebration dialogues are weird & cringy AF if you haven't interacted with the (horny?) characters at all or at least not in THAT way. At the very least, they should decouple "love interest" and "approval", it makes almost no sense to have them connected (besides maybe requiring some minimal amount of approval and/or changing some lines based on its amount). At least in the case of Shadowheart, there are some flirty lines you can choose in her dialogues, choosing enough of those should trigger something, not just the fact that you've petted Scratch many times.

For instance, at least some BG2 romances were OK. Fully optional (might not even know they are there if playing for the 1st time).

Not to mention, they have to make all the romance options varied and available. Because otherwise they would be accused of not showing representation.
No, they don't have to - they don't have to do any romances at all. But they will. Fan service, $$$, etc. I wish they either did it well or spent their time/effort elsewhere...

1. You cannot think that everything that was stated in a stupid stream is the end all be all of everything related to combat adjustment. So tired of people translating any little sentence someone says to their agenda. Of course they are going to be fine tuning combat, that is what ALPHA is! But it is a lot better to surprise players with the fixed mechanic, than to make it known you are working on it and than have to postpone or even worse fail. Not to mention, considering the attitude on this forum, they would be fools to even mention they were working on it. People started to jump their sh&t because they felt they didn't drop patch 4 soon enough after that stream. You don't bring up something your working on to the community until it is at a phase close to releasing it. They would be fools to do otherwise.

2. If you expected a hint of what they were doing, and not ready to announce, well I don't know what to tell you. No game does that. We are EA, not stockholders. Not only that, they will not release something like that until, as I stated above, it is about to go out. Another reason to do that, is to protect their intellectual property, if they let details out to early someone else will try to put it out before them.

3. I think you will find you are pretty much alone in regards to your thoughts about companion romance being left out. Yeah I think it was pretty forced to have Astarion (well hell I think all the male comps did which is annoying af) hit on my male character when I didn't show any interest in them like that. I do agree that they should only do that if you show romantic interest. But again, that is a no win situation, because they then would have the twitter reeeee squad coming down on them like a ton of bricks for not having representation.

Last edited by Pandemonica; 26/02/21 02:04 AM.
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Not sure if you’re aware but the new patch has video tutorials for eating to heal in combat, high ground advantage, and backstabbing. So it looks like Larian intends for those things to stay.

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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Not sure if you’re aware but the new patch has video tutorials for eating to heal in combat, high ground advantage, and backstabbing. So it looks like Larian intends for those things to stay.

Well I guess that question is answered. Guess people will have to decide if they can accept it or not. Honestly I think backstabbing SHOULD be limited to rogues though. Guess I will make sure to have a good supply of roast dwarf leg for longer runs 8P

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Not sure if you’re aware but the new patch has video tutorials for eating to heal in combat, high ground advantage, and backstabbing. So it looks like Larian intends for those things to stay.

Well I guess that question is answered. Guess people will have to decide if they can accept it or not. Honestly I think backstabbing SHOULD be limited to rogues though. Guess I will make sure to have a good supply of roast dwarf leg for longer runs 8P

All of that can be modded out.

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I would really rather the game's vanilla combat didn't suck. You can mod stuff, sure, but if you make an important change, the whole game (spells, abilities, enemy stats) may need to be rebalanced...

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Originally Posted by DiDiDi
I would really rather the game's vanilla combat didn't suck. You can mod stuff, sure, but if you make an important change, the whole game (spells, abilities, enemy stats) may need to be rebalanced...

This.
Mods will solve a few things, but at the same time it will create balanced issues...

Last edited by Maximuuus; 26/02/21 07:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by Scribe
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Not sure if you’re aware but the new patch has video tutorials for eating to heal in combat, high ground advantage, and backstabbing. So it looks like Larian intends for those things to stay.

Well I guess that question is answered. Guess people will have to decide if they can accept it or not. Honestly I think backstabbing SHOULD be limited to rogues though. Guess I will make sure to have a good supply of roast dwarf leg for longer runs 8P

All of that can be modded out.


They shouldn't have to be. They aren't D&D.

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My worries are mostly progression based and related to rules and mods. I think they have the story quite spot on.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by DiDiDi
I would really rather the game's vanilla combat didn't suck. You can mod stuff, sure, but if you make an important change, the whole game (spells, abilities, enemy stats) may need to be rebalanced...

This.
Mods will solve a few things, but at the same time it will create balanced issues...

I disagree that balance is conceptually relevant at this point. The content can be cleared solo, or with no resting.

Add 3 party members and resting? How can that even be comparable?

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Originally Posted by Necrosian
Quest lines seemingly leading nowhere. Like the comatose little girl that could be found in the tomb. Before the definitive edition she simply disappeared after 3rd(?) act.

There is a side quest for the little girl in act 4. You have to explore the map, or by talking to someone and learn her where about, and free her from the demon processing her.

Originally Posted by Necrosian
Some plot holes/choices not mattering. Mostly from DOS2, i chose to vampirise the souls of main villains that i killed. I was under assumptions that they were obliterated during that, but no ,final boss summons them anyway.

NPC sworn to God King can come back even being "consumed".

Originally Posted by Necrosian
Difficulty spike during last act. This was a huge problem for me. After i got to last act of DOS2, before the fight where difficult, but manageable, Then i had my ass handed by everyone.

Poor endgame sequences. From having to babysit NPC in first game to being obliterated without even getting a turn when faze 2 started in the second. I consider both to be somewhat poor bossfights.

Well, it is actually not that difficult if you know the "trick", but that will be too long to discuss here. But the ending after the fight is really bad. I will explain further below.

Originally Posted by Necrosian
These are my gripes that i hope are avoided in Baldur's gate development.

Also i wanted to know what do kind of thing you dont want to see when the game is complete?

Following are what I see in DOS2 and hope not happening with BG3 final release:

Poor quest choice/dialogues after act 1.

In act 1, dialogue branch are well designed/tested and take into consideration of previous action/encounter. eg. If you reach Sanctuary of Amadia before saving Gareth, when Gareth mention he can offer shelter, you have a dialogue choice to tell him you already been there. Also dialogue choice for turning in quest item/result/info are shown right away no matter which party member is turning in the quest. Not after act 1.

In contrast in act 2, those logic start to fall apart. For example, if you pick up the quest from Hannag to help her apprentice Gwydian in Blackpits. On the way you will meet Gareth parents. When they mention Hannag, you don't have a choice to tell them that you know her. Rather you have a choice to ask who Hannag is, like you never know her before. Same thing happen after you save Gwydian, you don't have a dialogue choice to tell him Hannag sent you. If Gareth die in act 1, you don't have a choice to tell Gareth parents. If Gareth is alive on Lady Vengeance, you can't tell him his parent miss him and wanted him to visit. It feel like the whole quest line, encounter logic fell apart completely.

This kind of issue getting worse and worse as you progress. The worst is at the ending dialogue choices, look at the following dialogue tree with my comment:

__1 Choose divinity (ok ... And I am breaking my own word if I told Lucian I am surrendering my source before the fight ...)
____1.1 Become divine (didn't I just choose that? And I am breaking my own word if I told Lucian I am surrendering my source before the fight ...)
____1.2 Give source to everyone (so I am not divine ...)
____1.3 Purge all source to seal the veil( I thought I choose divinity already ...? no?)
____extra choices if your main is undead or Fane
__2 Reject divinity

I was so confuse the first time reaching that point. Then before the final epilogue, dialogue choices on the ship are bad/strange with companion you romance with. The only good one seems to be Sebille. The worst is with Lohse.

Finally the epilogue slide show feel cheap, rushed and transition in a few places are plain awkward.

The environment and combat design are good and top quality through out the game. Quest design are good overall. But as I like to think about every choice before making decision, I can feel the script / branching quality really keep falling starting act 2.

My guess is like BG3, DOS2 has mass EA testing for act 1 with lot of feed back. But starting act 2 Larian rely on internal testing, and really rushing at the end. I hope BG3 won't have the same issue.

Last edited by jsiu.dev; 27/02/21 05:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by jsiu.dev
There is a side quest for the little girl in act 4. You have to explore the map, or by talking to someone and learn her where about, and free her from the demon processing her.

I know, but before the definitive edition the quest just stopped in Arx.

Originally Posted by jsiu.dev
NPC sworn to God King can come back even being "consumed".

Don't recall that mentioned anywhere, but i'll trust you.

Originally Posted by jsiu.dev
Well, it is actually not that difficult if you know the "trick", but that will be too long to discuss here. But the ending after the fight is really bad. I will explain further below.

I simply skipped phase 2 and beat it that way. For those that don't know how:
You can get Braccus down to 3000hp(not below that starts phase 2) and one hit him with Anathame if you pre buff you warrior. This skips Kraken fight entirely.

Originally Posted by jsiu.dev
Poor quest choice/dialogues after act 1......snip

Yeah the game drops in quests responsiveness and cohesion after act 1, i can't deny that. Hope that doesn't happen here.

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Originally Posted by Necrosian
I know, but before the definitive edition the quest just stopped in Arx.
I pick up dos2 after I got bg3 ea, so I only know DE :P

Originally Posted by Necrosian
Originally Posted by jsiu.dev
NPC sworn to God King can come back even being "consumed".
Don't recall that mentioned anywhere, but i'll trust you.
Kind of deduce that from Wendigo and a few dialogue line from somewhere, but can't remember exact. She keep coming back. But she is kind of a logical bug by itself. How can she be the narrator for the whole story if we freed her completely with swornbreaker?

Originally Posted by Necrosian
I simply skipped phase 2 and beat it that way. For those that don't know how:
You can get Braccus down to 3000hp(not below that starts phase 2) and one hit him with Anathame if you pre buff you warrior. This skips Kraken fight entirely.

I know 2 ways to skip 2nd phase and also how to do the 2nd phase the easy way. But I also gave up my 1st runs at that fight because I failed even after 10+ reload. LOL!

Originally Posted by Necrosian
Yeah the game drops in quests responsiveness and cohesion after act 1, i can't deny that. Hope that doesn't happen here.

Lets keep our finger cross.

Last edited by jsiu.dev; 27/02/21 05:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by Umbra
Fixed camps are always going to be immersion breaking if there's considerable distance to cover on a map.
DA:O was particulary bad - I mean it's ridiculus to think that the party is walking halfway across a kingdom to do a quest, then walking all the way back again to the same camp to sleep! They're spending more time travelling than there are hours in the day!
That said, the map isn't so huge in BG3. Except for the underdark, we could have a temporary camp there rather than climb a mile long ladder twice each day!

Regarding camping, whats wrong with the Baldurs gate 2 way of doing it?
Go to an Inn and pay.
No camping in cities, and certain areas.
Camp limit in dungeons, after the second time monsters auto span, no rest.(SCS mod).
Unlimited camp in the wild but monsters/animals of a chance to wake you and attack, no rest.

The problem in the last decade of gaming everyone wants <convenience>. People want everything and NOW. Unlimited inventory, auto travel, rest anytime, no time cycles, all classes for everyone, auto this auto that.
This makes it hard to make an interesting RPG, because to be somewhat <realistic> <strategic> and <interesting> you need to add RESTRICTIONS *(in my opinion...! others will say AUTO give me everything is more fun...which I don't get.).

In DOS2, the more you play the less fun in gets. Ironically the first chapters, when you are RESTRICTED to fewer abilities and items is the more fun part of the game.
Afterwards, too much of everything. Items, abilities...it becomes a bloated numbers mess. It becomes mundane and boring.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 27/02/21 07:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Originally Posted by Umbra
Fixed camps are always going to be immersion breaking if there's considerable distance to cover on a map.
DA:O was particulary bad - I mean it's ridiculus to think that the party is walking halfway across a kingdom to do a quest, then walking all the way back again to the same camp to sleep! They're spending more time travelling than there are hours in the day!
That said, the map isn't so huge in BG3. Except for the underdark, we could have a temporary camp there rather than climb a mile long ladder twice each day!

Regarding camping, whats wrong with the Baldurs gate 2 way of doing it?
Go to an Inn and pay.
No camping in cities, and certain areas.
Camp limit in dungeons, after the second time monsters auto span, no rest.(SCS mod).
Unlimited camp in the wild but monsters/animals of a chance to wake you and attack, no rest.

A realistic and immersive implementation requires more resources as it ties into a functional day/night cycle, that in turn ties into AI behaviour patters changing according to the passing time. Larian has previously addressed the issue, and it seems like they have convinced themselves that this requires some super elaborate TES/Radiant AI style of behavior (when the original BG-series did it in a simple and immersive enough manner).

A static camp requires much less resources than the above scenario, while also having the added convenience of being ever-present. A static camp can provide the comfort of a home base in an otherwise ever-changing environment, as well as give the illusion of passage of time (day/night cycle).

Seems to me Larian lacks any sort of overarching vision of this aspect. The only way to maintain immersion with a static camp in a large diverse area, is making the transition to it magical in nature (teleport), yet why then would they choose a nondescript area as a camp? The lack of vision is compounded by resting mechanics tying into a slew of balancing issues given D&D class/feat abilities are heavily balanced on resting mechanics. As well as a developing narrative dissonance of being given unlimited time to "waste" while also in a desperate fight against time while the tadpole eats away on your brain, while Gale's heart, the nethernese destruction orb, is literally a ticking time bomb.

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The problem in the last decade of gaming everyone wants <convenience>. People want everything and NOW. Unlimited inventory, auto travel, rest anytime, no time cycles, all classes for everyone, auto this auto that.
This makes it hard to make an interesting RPG, because to be somewhat <realistic> <strategic> and <interesting> you need to add RESTRICTIONS *(in my opinion...! others will say AUTO give me everything is more fun...which I don't get.).

This is definitely a thing. Convenience is now king. One of the many failures of Mass Effect: Andromeda was the dismantling of any defining class system (who could not have seen that coming with a radicalizing Bioware lol). Turns out when you are everything, you also become very bland.

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In DOS2, the more you play the less fun in gets. Ironically the first chapters, when you are RESTRICTED to fewer abilities and items is the more fun part of the game.
Afterwards, too much of everything. Items, abilities...it becomes a bloated numbers mess. It becomes mundane and boring.

This was my experience as well, certainly the insane numbers bloat that came with their excessive Diablo-esque loot focus. Everything mattered much less knowing the now-perfect item would be redundant in two quick levels. It became a compulsive grind that felt little rewarding.

The issue was exacerbated by the hyper-focus of Early Access on the first act only which led to the proceeding acts feeling somewhat empty and anticlimactic in comparison. This is a valid concern for the development of BG3 too; have they learned from the past pitfalls?

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