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GM4Him #761813 03/03/21 01:26 AM
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^pretty much. i dont know why we are gatekeeping feedback - i mean, we've all seen the length of the minthara appreciation posts. wink

Ayvah #761829 03/03/21 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
I can understand your struggle if you are a JRPG fan. But cosmetic or not, it adds to immersion and is pretty standard for virtually any CRPG. It is no surprise that many non-rpg games (and JRPGs) have nowadays. The way it is now, there are no night quests and it seems ridiculous that a D&D campaign will have minimal night quests.
My gosh. The gatekeeping in this thread. lol.

I don't care if Baldur's Gate 3 meets anyone's arbitrary definition of what an RPG is allowed to be. I'm just here for a good time with a fun game. Call it whatever you want.

Well, fun is subjective. We can all be minimalists and dismiss graphics, cinematics, soundtrack and may even go back to table top. There is a reason why so many people complain and so many games have it and it is not arbitrary.

GM4Him #761833 03/03/21 04:13 AM
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RPG is all about role-playing. The more immersive, the more the players love it. So I agree that when a video game RPG fails to immerse players properly, that is a big issue. You are right in that and there are A LOT of people unhappy with BG3 not having proper day/night realtime clock.

They should really do something to make this happen better.

I don't need a clock. Honestly, that's not a thing for me. What I do want is some semblance of the passage of time that makes more sense. It all boils down to what I was saying. Characters shouldn't be calling it quits for the day if they haven't done much. At least have it where they comment about needing to rest after a major fight like AFTER the dank crypt or the druids grove first fight or whatever. Not before when I've hardly done anything.

And give me the ability to long rest so that it changes from day to night or from night to day. How about that? 2 long rests a day, one for morning to night and one for night to morning. It's frankly stupid to try to sneak into a goblin camp in broad daylight. Let me have the ability to wait til nightfall and then try to sneak in.

So don't need a clock. Long rest equals shift from day to night or night to day.

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I love day and night cycle, but it's really up to Larian if they have enough time and resources to add this aspect in the game. I feel like it could open up a can of worms if the settlements act the same way during the day as during the night, so they need to make different routine. It's not easy and potentially adding bugs. With that being said, if it's added, it would be nice, but if not, then I would understand since it's not something that could implement over night.

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Originally Posted by Hilarian
I love day and night cycle, but it's really up to Larian if they have enough time and resources to add this aspect in the game. I feel like it could open up a can of worms if the settlements act the same way during the day as during the night, so they need to make different routine. It's not easy and potentially adding bugs. With that being said, if it's added, it would be nice, but if not, then I would understand since it's not something that could implement over night.

Thank you. That was my point about doubling the game's size. If you have day and night and different things happening during both, you'd have to have a day set of dialogues and a night set, thus doubling the amount of data needed to make it work.

However, if you take my latest idea, no 2nd set of dialogues needed. Implement a second long rest. 1 long rest from day to night and 1 from night to day. Same dialogues either way. Just shift lighting. Day/night cycle simulated. Oh, and again, cut down on healing items like food so people will use long rest more to heal, thus guiding people to camp for dialogue. 2 short rests per long rest. Problems solved with minimal impact to current game state.

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OK. I came up with this idea during my last thread on this subject, but I wanted to present it here as a new thread so that the idea isn't missed by Larian.

Problems:
1. Character development dialogues are tied to End Day/Camp.
2. Characters in party want to End Day too frequently when they haven't done much at all. (Lazy bums!) This occurs because the characters have some sort of dialogue available, and the only way to trigger said dialogue is to End Day. So, if I don't want to miss any dialogue, I need to End Day, play for about 10 minutes, End Day again, etc. even if I haven't hardly done much but run around a bit. With a tadpole in my head that could turn me into a Mind Flayer unless I get a healer soon (something they all urge me to do as quickly as possible), seems stupid to rest so much just so I can talk to my companions and get all the dialogue/character development.
3. Without a proper Day/Night Cycle, certain things just seem stupid, like sneaking into a Goblin Base Camp in broad daylight. Astarion especially is used to the night. Why would he NOT insist that we sneak into the Goblin Camp at night, and why wouldn't we sneak in by night? Some missions just seem idiotic to try by day.
4. Many players are upset by not having a Day/Night cycle. (Myself included, though for me it is more of a minor issue).

My New Suggested Solution that will hopefully have minimal impact and might actually resolve this:
1. 2 Long Rests per day. First long rest changes it from Day to Night. Second long rest changes from Night to Day.
2. The characters would ONLY say they are tired and need to rest AFTER they have endured something worthy of needing a long rest, not whenever they have a dialogue available. My suggestion is that if a character loses more than half their hit points during a battle or uses all of their spell slots, they might suggest their need for rest. It would also make sense after a traumatic battle, like fighting the undead in the dank crypt and other boss fights. It does not make sense BEFORE a boss fight when all you've done is fight baby enemies and you still have full health and all your spell slots.
3. Dialogues become available at certain points like they do now, but whenever you long rest, whether it is the first or second long rest, all dialogues that have become available between rests are able to be triggered at camp at that time. So if I go for a long time without long resting, I should be able to trigger all dialogues that are available since the last time I long rested (unless the dialogue no longer makes sense).
4. Food should be required to recover hit points during long and short rests and are ONLY able to heal during long and short rests. They should be used up based on how many HP the characters need to recover during rests. If you don't have food, you can't rest. Food should NOT allow characters to recover while adventuring especially during battles. It just doesn't make logical sense to be able to eat a cheese wheel in combat, let alone as a bonus action. But the main reason for this suggestion is that it will force players to short/long rest more frequently in order to recover hit points and spell slots, and it makes food a more unique and reasonable healing item. It also gives you a reason to just store food at camp as opposed to carrying it all around on you at all times. If food is treated like health potions, health potions are meaningless. I wind up selling most of my health potions right now because they're worth more money and don't do me that much good because I usually have tons of food around that do pretty much the same thing. Basically, if I have a million healing items, I don't need 2 short rests or a long rest as much. Therefore, I don't go to camp as much and thus I miss out on dialogue from party members. Make food more of a necessity that is different from health potions so that it will force people to rest more often and thus encourages character development.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
OK. I came up with this idea during my last thread on this subject, but I wanted to present it here as a new thread so that the idea isn't missed by Larian.
Please don't open multiple threads on the same subject. Wanting to stand out is not a good reason to create a new thread when one is already open and active.

grysqrl #761984 03/03/21 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by grysqrl
Putting something in italics to make it look like it has some authority doesn't actually give it any authority. It doesn't help that you're quoting a random reddit user. The distinction pointed out in the quote also sounds more like it's about the financial arrangement than whether or not they're looking for feedback.

Now, from the Early Access FAQ in these forums: (https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=677277)
Originally Posted by FAQ
Why are we doing Early Access?
We’ve learned that working directly with our players during development makes our games better. RPGs this large, with so many permutations, thrive from feedback as new features and fixes are incrementally added to the game. Early Access gives players a chance to participate in development and it gives us an opportunity to explore different game ideas with a live community. We want to learn how you play the game and use that to make it a better experience for everyone.
Between that and the fact that we're having this discussion in the "Suggestions & Feedback" forum that they created, it sure seems like they want our feedback. The distinction between Beta and Early Access is both irrelevant to whether we are giving feedback and not particularly germane to the statement of mine that you were responding to, which is about how we get our information and what assumptions we can make.

I don't think it is as much of a game breaking issue to most people as it is to you. Also, that was a google definition I searched, but you can argue semantics all you want, there is a difference between beta testing and early access. As for their statement, I would pay attention to "We want to learn how you play the game and use that to make it a better experience for everyone" which basically means they are pulling play data from our sessions to make the game better. Maybe they will change day/night, maybe they won't but I think to most players it is just an accessory. I have looked up a number of YT videos, reviews, discussions and among the most talked about issues, I don't see it that often. Not discounting the importance it is for you, just when you commonly state that it is an issue for A LOT of people, like it is game breaking or something. Considering that in all their games, they have never had a day/night cycle, my guess is that it isn't happening, but if it does than cool.

Honestly, if you want a true idea of what the majority of players want/don't want/don't care would be to just include a survey in the launcher. You are more likely to get the accurate issues and their importance that way, rather than open forums since a majority of people don't use the forums.

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Sorry. I was afraid the new ideas would be missed if they are engulfed in the middle of all these other comments. I mean, we're on page 4 now. Will someone from Larian see my new ideas around Day/Night, food, etc? Will they even see it to consider it?

GM4Him #762007 03/03/21 06:27 PM
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Just going to throw this out there but I think the reason we will not see a day/night cycle has to do with multiplayer(actually I blame many things on this).

A dev from another game I use to play mentioned that syncing day/night cycles between multiple players is hard(er) to do. I don't personally know anything about coding or game making, but it was mentioned a few times by them when peeps would mention it on their forums.

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Originally Posted by Hilarian
I love day and night cycle, but it's really up to Larian if they have enough time and resources to add this aspect in the game. I feel like it could open up a can of worms if the settlements act the same way during the day as during the night, so they need to make different routine. It's not easy and potentially adding bugs. With that being said, if it's added, it would be nice, but if not, then I would understand since it's not something that could implement over night.

Since this isn't a sprawling sandbox, no complex routines are really required. The linear nature of the game would remain. This would only need to affect enough encounters here and there to give the illusion of passing time. Scripted encounters would only have different lighting (unless Underdark), which opens up for more varied tactics. The regular encounters affected wouldn't need change beyond adding campfires and sleeping enemies (add as needed for balance). Animations for going to sleep, some appropriate voice acting (yawning etc.).

What we would get in return for not that much work would be three very important things; improved immersion, improved balance and narrative consistency/coherence. The ever important immersion of a world where time is not frozen. A framework for the resting mechanic that would address serious balance issues (D&D classes are balanced around resting a certain amount where resting is infinite in BG3 currently). We would eliminate the *huge* narrative dissonance (story telling us we're running out of time, but have in reality all the time in the world...and then some).

Larian indubitably has a system regarding the Tadpole power and how it affects the player over time. More use, embracing the change, would likely lead to more power in the present, but more negative outcome towards the end. Without it being as bad as to override player agency, locking the player into catastrophic failure/"worst" ending. Wasting a lot of time on sleeping could contribute to this system of empowering/accelerating the change. Players sleeping excessively could be given hints/warnings of this having unforeseen consequences at a later date, indeed such a conversation is already in game and there are scenes that describe the ongoing changes.

I firmly believe the game would benefit enormously for the resources needed for such a change.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Putting something in italics to make it look like it has some authority doesn't actually give it any authority. It doesn't help that you're quoting a random reddit user. The distinction pointed out in the quote also sounds more like it's about the financial arrangement than whether or not they're looking for feedback.

Now, from the Early Access FAQ in these forums: (https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=677277)
Originally Posted by FAQ
Why are we doing Early Access?
We’ve learned that working directly with our players during development makes our games better. RPGs this large, with so many permutations, thrive from feedback as new features and fixes are incrementally added to the game. Early Access gives players a chance to participate in development and it gives us an opportunity to explore different game ideas with a live community. We want to learn how you play the game and use that to make it a better experience for everyone.
Between that and the fact that we're having this discussion in the "Suggestions & Feedback" forum that they created, it sure seems like they want our feedback. The distinction between Beta and Early Access is both irrelevant to whether we are giving feedback and not particularly germane to the statement of mine that you were responding to, which is about how we get our information and what assumptions we can make.

I don't think it is as much of a game breaking issue to most people as it is to you. Also, that was a google definition I searched, but you can argue semantics all you want, there is a difference between beta testing and early access. As for their statement, I would pay attention to "We want to learn how you play the game and use that to make it a better experience for everyone" which basically means they are pulling play data from our sessions to make the game better. Maybe they will change day/night, maybe they won't but I think to most players it is just an accessory. I have looked up a number of YT videos, reviews, discussions and among the most talked about issues, I don't see it that often. Not discounting the importance it is for you, just when you commonly state that it is an issue for A LOT of people, like it is game breaking or something. Considering that in all their games, they have never had a day/night cycle, my guess is that it isn't happening, but if it does than cool.

Honestly, if you want a true idea of what the majority of players want/don't want/don't care would be to just include a survey in the launcher. You are more likely to get the accurate issues and their importance that way, rather than open forums since a majority of people don't use the forums.

First, again, I would appreciate it if you stopped putting words in my mouth; you are burning strawmen. At no point do I say this is "an issue for A LOT of people" or that it is "game breaking" or anything like those statements or even that it's necessary to have a day/night cycle. I am very careful to make statements only about what I think or want because it would be complete nonsense for me to make claims about what other people think or want without evidence to back it up.

Second, the quote of mine that you are responding to has nothing to do with the day/night cycle. I'm complaining that people are regularly pulling unreliable information about Larian's intentions from random interviews and suggesting that we should not base our feedback on information that isn't presented to us within the scope of our playtesting. This, admittedly, has gone off the topic of this thread, but was based on comments in this thread. I intended to let it lie there, but you then quoted it for some reason and then talked about something else.

Thirdly, I am not looking for "a true idea of what the majority of players want". Design by committee leads to bad choices and systems that don't work together. What I am doing is stating the kinds of things that I would like to see in this game (in this case, verisimilitude and more diverse ways for characters to interact with the world) and then trying to present a combination of reasons why those might be compelling and examples of what that might look like. This is how playtesting works. You can call it whatever you want, but the bottom line is they have asked for feedback and I am providing it.

I'm happy to keep talking about day/night cycle stuff, but this particular discussion is unproductive and I will no longer be participating in it.

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There have been discussions here before about the day/night cycle, or rather the lack of one. So I won't talk a lot about it here, yet it is important to consider a day/night cycle when talking about exhaustion levels. I think a BG game that centers around survival, as has been stated by larian multiple times, should absolutely feature the exhaustion system of D&D 5e.
In my opinion, this would reward resourcefulness and planning, and make the game more immersive due to the threat of the tadpole, that could theoretically kill us any minute. This way players would need to weigh their options: rest and risk transformation? or don't rest, receive a level of exhaustion, but don't waste time with resting, which in turn would risk transformation? (i realize there isn't really much sense of urgency in the story at the moment, but one can hope they adapt and improve?)

(for those who aren't familiar with the exhaustion system: its well explained here https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conditions#content)

To implement exhaustion, a day/night cycle is not essential of course, but it would definitely increase immersion.

What are your thoughts on an exhaustion system as it exists in 5e?

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I don't like it. Just like Pathfinder curse system. I don't want to constantly worry about time, I want to play quietly and explore world in my temp. When you add something to any game that is related to time limits, it creates tension, and after that there is nothing fun.

In BG3, this tension is temporary, until someone told you that your tadpole is inactive. And I think this is a good position. This is not a game where you need to rush and skipping 1000 side quests. It's a bad experience.


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That exhaustion isn't something anyone would willingly go through to gain more time. You can skip a single nights sleep before the results are crippling. If that sort of time pressure was necessary then say hello to your all-elf party.

More importantly though Larian want players to spend a lot of time at camp, they've piled pretty much all of the companion interactions into the camp. There's no way to pivot towards trying to limit sleeping more than once every two or three encounters.

BG3 is a story about survival but it's not a game about filling food, water and sleep guages.

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This is my take on Day/Night Cycle:

1. 2 short rests for every long.
2. 2 long rests a day, not 1. Days are too short for people with tadpoles in their heads and long rests are like 8 hours in D&D, not a whole day.
3. Long rest changes day to night or night to day so we can move about by night, allowing us to sneak better into the gobbo camp for example.
4. Food is ONLY able to be used during resting to heal, either short or long. Every HP you heal requires a food or drink item. This makes food different from potions, making then both more important for different reasons.
5. Give us Hit Dice like 5e is supposed to have. I need to heal 10 HP, I roll d8, I get a 5, I eat 5 apples or maybe 1 cheese wheel, I decide to spend a second hit dice, I roll a 7, I'm fully healed and consume a pitcher of water, or something like that.
6. If you rest outside of camp, you risk a random encounter. The more dangerous the area, the greater the risk. Perception checks are rolled if encounter triggered to see if surprised.
7. Limit Fast Travel so that if you are unable to safely get to a Waypoint rune you can't fast travel. This way, I'm not short resting in a hostile gobbo lair or teleporting to camp and back right in the middle of the base somehow getting past tons of enemies. Thus, short resting in a dangerous place might actually be a necessity. Find a corner and hope they don't find you.
8. Stop using "I'm tired, let's call it a day" to let people know a dialogue can be triggered. Instead, just have the dialogues able to be triggered in some sort of order. Whenever you go to camp, if dialogues are available the exclamation appears. With 2 long rests a day and dangerous resting outside of camp, players will be forced to camp more often to trigger dialogue. Even short resting in camp would be safe so people might go to camp for short rests too.

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As I said in another post, at the very least Larian should do a better job of forcing us to rest the first time, where we get the cutscene showing us that the tadpole isn't as urgent as the game and other characters previously implied. One way to do this is to give all our characters an exhaustion level or two after we rescue Gale or Lae'zel. Our characters had just been kidnapped, restrained in pods, implanted with a mindflayer tadpole, fought our way out of a ship, and then fell out of said ship. It's perfectly reasonable for our characters to be tired.

A mechanical incentive to sleep would fit the story better than
a.) metagaming, knowing that there isn't actually a time limit and thus you can freely rest
b.) companions just stating that they are tired, when all they really want to do is talk to you

In subsequent days, perhaps companions could voice disapproval at resting unless at least one of the party members has a level of exhaustion? Which would be acquired either 30-60 minutes after the 2nd (or 3rd?) short rest or 3 hours after the previous long rest, whichever is first. This would be an incentive to not long rest spam, but wouldn't entirely prevent it.

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They should limit the long rest to the number of key enemy encounters that progress the story before you get owned by the Tadpole. It's still an insanely easy and abusable game where you don't need to spam all your spell slots every fight.

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it does make you wonder what larian's intentions are here for the final product when they introduce a 'time sensitive' narrative in a game that doesnt have any 'passage of time' or day/night cycle mechanics - and thats before you touch on the weird implementation of short/long rest narrative pacing and class balance, exhaustion penalty considerations, need for food and supplies, camp security or the threat of a random mob, etc. or larians preference for having all major dialogues occur at the campsite. others have shared similar experiences, but my early playthroughs missed a good amount of this narrative content/background due to trying to spread my party's encounters over a 'day' of adventuring, instead of cheesing easy rest access.

imho, the whole narrative buildup with the opening cinematic and 'tutorial' taking place on a crashing mindflayer ship in the 9hells where you earlier see what happens to those that dont get the tadpoles out timely, along with the constant reminders by your companions to make haste less you too turn into a illithid, only to find out that your special tadpole (and those of all the currently available dev-npc origin characters) is even more special than was previously believed, so much so that what you thought was a ticking tadpole time bomb in fact isnt, and is instead now 'just chillen' in your brain - seems really poorly executed, comes off unimaginative and fairly contrived. tbh, im just waiting now for tiamat to show up too with a claim on the tadpole (already got the hell and gith rider angles) to round out raphael and the netherese

related to the tadpoles, and this has been posted/discussed in the forums before, but im really worried that larian is going to go back to their roots and set up a showdown for the end of act1 where its the player and their chosen companions against those we didnt select turned into mindflayers - setting up the party and map locks for act1, which admittedly im not a fan of

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Originally Posted by nation
related to the tadpoles, and this has been posted/discussed in the forums before, but im really worried that larian is going to go back to their routes and set up a showdown for the end of act1 where its the player and their chosen companions against those we didnt select turned into mindflayers - setting up the party and map locks for act1, which admittedly im not a fan of

Last thing Larian has said on the issue of companions was that we will lose access to those not in our party after act 1. They did mention they would look at changing that but it could break the companion quests as is if they just didn't get rid of them and let us keep them.

I'd thought it was going to be something like we ended up leaving them behind or some such, but from what you said above it sounds like Larian has done this sort of thing before in their games. Personally I'm also not a fan of map locks for each act nor killing off companions just because we didn't happen to have them in the party at the moment. Now that you said that though, I can totally see them doing exactly what you said and having the non-party companions end up fighting our group at some point either after a full on mindflayer transformation or simply being controlled via their tadpoles. I really hope that isn't the route Larian is planning on going though.

Regardless it reinforces my decision to mod the party to 6 right off the bat come release if they don't give us a settings option for it.

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