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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
That is the most boring place to start an RPG.; Remembers me of the "every JRPG ever" from college humor. On Dark Sun : Shattered Sands, you start as a gladiator slave in a arena. On Baldur's Gate 1, you start in the candlekeep.

But that's my point: I like Baldur's Gate 1 start. A lot wink But you are right insofar that it get's "boring" if every game starts like that.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
The primary reason why you don't start with a full arsenal at the beginning of an FPS campaign (ie a skill based game) is escalating complexity. [...] This is often combined with a reward mechanic so that you "feel good" about getting access to a new tool [...] It is different model to that used in level-based "RPG" skill systems where progression tends to just provide a straight forward power advantage without much of a sacrifice. In a skill-based game, low level enemies never stop being a threat, but the skills you learn playing the game make them less of a threat the second time you play the game. In a level-based system, they're still dangerous on the second playthrough. (Some games are a mix of the two.)

The primary reason for me to play an FPS shooter - apart from the often non-existent story - is to explore the levels, play in coop with friends, get new guns & face new enemies. I seldomly play multiplayer and only with friends. If I face the biggest boss & largest gun in the beginning of the game - example: Duke Nukem Forever - I quit the game and play something else.

But of course there are players focused on honing their skill or competing with others. I simply don't have the time or inclination for such things.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Anyway, this is all rather redundant, as I'm talking about gameplay here. The OP was concerned with the story progression (ie the worthy opponents at the start of the game are too bad ass). And seems to feel that you should have to earn that kind of power fantasy.

You have to be a good writer to write a good story, yes.

I don't think it's any easier to write a story containing an escalating power fantasy than any other kind of story. In fact, I think there often can be some serious writing challenges when your characters get too OP. I mean, have any of you seen Dragon Ball Z?

It's a simple equation. If you meet Mind Flayers, Dragons and Nautiloids in the beginning, it's hard to raise the bar. Your story could quickly become anticlimatic and might be perceived as boring.

DBZ is starting small and getting OP. And sure, as soon as you get 'OP', it's hard to raise the bar. That's the point.

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Originally Posted by Arne
The primary reason for me to play an FPS shooter - apart from the often non-existent story - is to explore the levels, play in coop with friends, get new guns & face new enemies. I seldomly play multiplayer and only with friends. If I face the biggest boss & largest gun in the beginning of the game - example: Duke Nukem Forever - I quit the game and play something else.
So which FPS games do you play?

Originally Posted by Arne
It's a simple equation. If you meet Mind Flayers, Dragons and Nautiloids in the beginning, it's hard to raise the bar. Your story could quickly become anticlimatic and might be perceived as boring.

DBZ is starting small and getting OP. And sure, as soon as you get 'OP', it's hard to raise the bar. That's the point.
Indeed. Piccolo blew up the moon before Dragon Ball Z even started. It kept trying to "raise the bar" with every new arc in DBZ, and it got silly rather quickly. I still like DBZ, but this is something it struggled with and where turning super saiyan would be a big deal at the end of the Frieza saga, skip forward a bit and Goten/Trunks are turning super saiyan as children with barely any effort just so they can keep up with the constant escalation.

This was a mistake.

Action stories don't need escalating stakes or escalating power levels; they need novel or escalating challenge. This doesn't mean the enemies need to get more and more cool or scary looking.

The problem with something like Dragon Ball Z is that almost every novel or escalating challenge was overcome with a power-up.

In contrast, in a TV series like The Mandalorian, he normally finds a solution to the challenges he faces without just finding some new power-up. It's also common in action stories for the main character to get weaker as they're worn down by the challenges they face, not stronger. (It's a great way to escalate the challenge.)

It's a little bit harder to make the player weaker in a video game given it'd mean taking tools away from the player, but there's nothing wrong with it narratively.

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Originally Posted by Elessaria666
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Of course you can. But you got my point. The game starts with you escaping an mindflayer spelljammer ship who fought an draconic army.
And what did our level 1 character fight? Some imps. Two or three intellect devourers. Even if you exploit barrelmancy to kill the mindflayer and cambion more turn up pretty much requiring you to flee; and you get no XP for that, so short of curiosity one time, there is no reason at all to do it. Then we don't so much escape the ship as fall out of it. To be honest I find that entire scenario more beleivable than managing to escape Irenicus' dungeon at the start of BG2...

Having only this weaklings on this location makes no sense IMO.

And I play D&D to fight epic creatures like dragons, cast powerful spells like stop time, Dungeons & Kobolds is a pretty boring game IMO.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Piccolo blew up the moon before Dragon Ball Z even started. It kept trying to "raise the bar" with every new arc in DBZ, and it got silly rather quickly. I still like DBZ, but this is something it struggled with and where turning super saiyan would be a big deal at the end of the Frieza saga, skip forward a bit and Goten/Trunks are turning super saiyan as children with barely any effort just so they can keep up with the constant escalation..

There are a huge difference between DBZ and D&D. On DBZ, you have no limitations. On D&D, even the strongest archamge can only cast tier 9 spells. Teh strongest creatures are like Terrasques, Kraken, Liches and so on. And you can have CR 20+ creatures being a local threat. For eg, a Kraken(CR 23 on 5e) threatening a city who depends on his port and naval trade to survive is a plausible problem. Sadly, 5e DM guide and the AWFUL tier of characters implies that a kraken needs to be fought by "heroes of the world" and thanks to the awful tier system, a lot of people ignore that even a Terrasque can be a local threat.

5e doesn't have epic levels nor rules for divine ranks. The unique way to make a demilich a cannon fodder to your players is turning then into deities.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 03/03/21 05:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Having only this weaklings on this location makes no sense IMO.

And I play D&D to fight epic creatures like dragons, cast powerful spells like stop time, Dungeons & Kobolds is a pretty boring game IMO.

Pretty sure you don't do it at level 1

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Indeed. Piccolo blew up the moon before Dragon Ball Z even started. It kept trying to "raise the bar" with every new arc in DBZ, and it got silly rather quickly. I still like DBZ, but this is something it struggled with and where turning super saiyan would be a big deal at the end of the Frieza saga, skip forward a bit and Goten/Trunks are turning super saiyan as children with barely any effort just so they can keep up with the constant escalation.

Ah, my fault, I meant the entire Dragon Ball, not only Dragon Ball Z. In the beginning of Dragon Ball Son Goku is already quite strong but not invincible.

Dragon Ball Z lost me precisely because there wasn't much more to grow - I only watched parts of it because of the new children/younger characters who were again 'weak'. But as you point it out yourself, they mastered what took ages before in no time.

Last edited by Arne; 03/03/21 05:46 PM.
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The difference between LV 1 to 20 in 5e is far smaller than on 3.5e and 2e. But why ALL D&D 5e adaptations insists in ultra low Dungeons & Kobolds gameplay? Not only BG3. Solasta has a lv cap = 10. BG3 IDK.

Meanwhile, PF:WoTR will feature a campaign till lv 20 and mythic paths. And a lv 20 Lich casting wail of the banshee is far more powerful than any 5e spell.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
(...)But why ALL D&D 5e adaptations insists in ultra low Dungeons & Kobolds gameplay? Not only BG3. Solasta has a lv cap = 10. BG3 IDK.

Because low lvl campaigns are beginner friendly and apparently people enjoy building their characters from the scratch.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
The difference between LV 1 to 20 in 5e is far smaller than on 3.5e and 2e.
What? A 17th level wizard can literally warp reality. In 5e at higher levels you get a lot of tools that reward creative thinking. Creative thinking and a video game without human DM don't go so well together.

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