Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback The level 5 Archdruid problem

So we still have level 5 Archdruid NPC's and level 1 companions who are being presented as powerful and experienced.

Why is this a problem?

It's a missed opportunity to establish a power hierarchy or structure in the setting at the beginning of the game. If everything kind of blurs to match the PC's current level, power levels become meaningless. There is little room for growth when NPC's scale to your current level and you are always "elite". The devil vs. mindflayer in the tutorial was a nice exception, but characters like Halsin are much more important in establishing the scale of power in the world.

Compare to the level 1 PC at the start of BG1. You are ambushed by a vastly superior enemy and Gorion saves you with an impressive display of higher level power. He ends up sacrificing himself for you which makes the scene even more powerful, and the unknown enemy that much more scary. It is awe inspiring, and it tells you there are things far more powerful than you in the world. You are shown how powerful you can potentially become, something to strive for. It gives you that room for growth.

BG3 could use Halsin as a Gorion type hero character that would accomplish the same. It has been kind of set up already at the end of EA. You could have a cool scene where this NPC far above your power level saves your party from a superior enemy. But sadly, it seems like the archdruid's level has been scaled down simply for another level appropriate fight should you become enemies. And even that is not necessary. You can fight a higher level enemy when they are wounded or vulnerable, or you can have help. I'm kind of hoping it's just an EA thing because higher level spells are not in yet.

To create an immersive world, you should teach the player early on that the entire world does not conveniently scale to your current level. Some things are beyond you, but you can grow more powerful.

Having a level 5 Archdruid NPC also tells the player that your own level 4 Druid could probably also be an archdruid, leading a circle. Again, leave some room for growth please. I still want to feel inexperienced but aspiring at this point. I want NPC's to look up to, or be envious of. Maybe I will hold a grudge and return at the end of the game when I can finally murder them. Story arcs! Being an archdruid should basically mean you are a master who knows all their spells and secrets. But even just level 9 would create a clearer power shift between the master and the disciples.

I would also like a greater storytelling emphasis on the "de-leveling" of your companions. Explain to me how these powerful and experienced characters are suddenly back to level 1. Especially Gale, Karlach and the centuries old vampire.

NPC level is not the same as player level in BG3. It seems closer to Larian's take on CR in that it is the level your party should be to tackle those enemies.

Halsin, as an example, is not a fifth level druid by any metric. He has over 90HP. A druid at fifth level is going to have anywhere between 25 and 40HP. Assuming a CON bonus of +3 Halsin, based on his HP, is closer to a 10th level character. Based on some "playable Halsin" mods I've seen he's also got pretty crazy good stats that far exceed what your character is capable of having.

Your own druid doesn't even begin to approach Halsin on a one vs one basis. You'd be greatly out-matched by him without three other companions of the same level as you outside luck or clever strategy.

He compares pretty well to Auntie Ethel rather than a druid PC. I actually wonder if anyone has messed with the game enough to see who'd win that fight. Soloing a Swamp Hag would be a pretty worthy feat of an archdruid in terms of lore power.

I also wonder if the new patch has done much to make his fight harder or not. Now that wild shape works correctly he's probably quite the tank.

I don't think they are particularly bothered about establishing a power hierarchy; I mean, when you start a game on a mindflayer ship, seeing cambions, dragons, mind flayers and then a short duration later you can be in the Underdark. And then there are the companions with their exceptional backstories. So I think it is fair to say that Larian's modus operandi is: cool/fun/OTT overrides most other considerations, especially immersion. It's like the spoilt kid who gets too much too soon, you have nothing left to wish for because you already have it all. It makes you wonder how they will keep the end game interesting when you have already witnessed so much crazy stuff in Act 1.

Regarding Halsin's level, if it says he is level 5 but his HP reflects a level 10, then why not just make him level 10? I just don't understand giving a level 5 character 90 HP.

Anyway, I think you will find most posts about Halsin either refer to wanting him as a companion or wanting to f**k him.

“In regione caecorum rex est luscus.”
Translation: “In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.”.

Maybe Halsin dont have level 10 since mechanics for higher levels are not implemented yet.

On 2e, arch druids are all high level. Be able to cast tier 7 magic was a requirement to be a archdruid but now, we have archdruids unable to use tier 3 magic...

Maybe Halsin is in fact much higher level and just waiting for higher level spells to be implemented.. I hope so. Larian's CR/level is definitely wonky and creating more confusion than helping the player.

The actual non-numerical problem is the big disconnect between the narrative and the game mechanics. These level 1 companions are so bad-ass with huge backstories even though an Ogre would casually one-hit them. How can I believe Karlach's story when mechanically her level appropriate enemies are goblins.

I'm bringing this up because Baldur's Gate I did it so well. The game told you how your level 1 character is a rookie and how the world is a dangerous place. Then you become an adventurer, then a hero and beyond. It was all about character growth, which was a big factor in making the games so amazing. And the game mechanics were in sync with the narrative. BG3 lacks that dynamic.

I don't have many thoughts about Halsin in particular, but I can say one of my biggest frustrations is when worlds are not consistent.

For instance, if guards are typically second level, they shouldn't suddenly jump up to fifth level because the players are now higher level.

Balancing challenge rating is certainly important, but that's no excuse to forget about the importance of consistency and verisimilitude.

Especially true in 5e, where bounded accuracy is a big cornerstone in design. Those 2nd level guards can still hit higher level PC's and be dangerous in large numbers. We'll see how Larian interprets this.

Compare to BG1/2?? How dare you! Just joking. Very good points.
I think we are getting DOS style leveling in BG3, nothing will change Larians mind on the issue. Its how <<modern>> games work now.

True, "modern" games seem to be more about instant gratification, more grinding and less thinking.. I'm not convinced that's a good development. I guess I should be happy they didn't turn this into an MMO with cooldowns, huge numbers, messy VFX and free Pink Pegasus mount for pre-ordering.