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hmmm, dunno - So far I found the druid to be pretty powerful (even with my terribly specced land druid). You just sort of waddle around doing a bit of everything while your damage dealers kill the enemies. You are just not the balls-to-wall tank you might think to be, but I found the beast-forms pretty nifty for getting to those pesky archers or turning the fight around when my hp pool gets low. Granted, I didnt make it to the underdark yet, but I pretty much cleared the goblin fortress and spider caves without leveling to 4 and using any cheese strats (which is pretty difficult tbh since darkness/fog-cloud has such weird AI interactions).
My guess is the class will feel a lot more rounded once larian implements crafting and takes another look at the resource model.

I kinda think that they should move the polar bear form to a later level and have the same standard bear form earlier (though I haven't tried moon druid yet), just for flavor reasons.

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Originally Posted by Ankou
Now, at level 5 wizard will be blasting people with fireballs, with unlimited rests apparently, and just smoking everything. Fighter will be attacking twice and starting to become a major DPS threat with high AC (which druid animal form doesn't have so it's doubly outclassed). Warlock is sending out two eldritch blasts per hit, doubling its damage WITH hex (each blast is getting your agonizing blast boost and count as separate hits for hex, so you're doing 2*(5+4+3)=24 on average per hit from range, which is an excellent combo. Etc. etc. Druid in bear form will be doing a single hit on dudes with 40+ health doing less than half what the Warlock does with an infinite resource, eating 40 damage a turn at least, and you'll be totally discouraged from using animal form, hence why moon druid is pointless.

You did not close your parenthesis, your equation is wrong smile

The OP is referring to the "Druid Class" and the first post even mention spells. To the following comment:

Originally Posted by Adiktus
In short, druid is not the class for the power gamer, or, I would argue, for a beginner.

.. I concede one point to OP's comment; "not for a beginner". However, if you are not a beginner, then the Druid is overpower.

My definition of overpower is: you are able to solo the game with a class, that through the mechanics of the game will make the run through easy and cheesy. (you can chill on a rooftop, with your glass of margarita , while you are moving moonbeam or flaming ball around and killing everyone).

Last edited by Starlights; 14/03/21 04:39 PM.

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I just wish Natural Spell was in, cannot lie.

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Moon druid sucks as it stands. No idea what they were thinking gimping the bear and making it a "polar" bear for a little extra pizazz. Just make it a brown bear and give it multi-attack the same as Halsin's bear.

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Originally Posted by Starlights
Originally Posted by Ankou
Now, at level 5 wizard will be blasting people with fireballs, with unlimited rests apparently, and just smoking everything. Fighter will be attacking twice and starting to become a major DPS threat with high AC (which druid animal form doesn't have so it's doubly outclassed). Warlock is sending out two eldritch blasts per hit, doubling its damage WITH hex (each blast is getting your agonizing blast boost and count as separate hits for hex, so you're doing 2*(5+4+3)=24 on average per hit from range, which is an excellent combo. Etc. etc. Druid in bear form will be doing a single hit on dudes with 40+ health doing less than half what the Warlock does with an infinite resource, eating 40 damage a turn at least, and you'll be totally discouraged from using animal form, hence why moon druid is pointless.

You did not close your parenthesis, your equation is wrong smile

The OP is referring to the "Druid Class" and the first post even mention spells.

Ankou is aware of that. He is comparing it to other classes to highlight how much weaker it is.


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Difficulty shouldn't rely on self crippling all the time, they should have an actual solid system that offers challenge. What i have now is a mountain of Roquefort at every corner, specially since combat revolves around homebrew gimmicks instead of Class, Party Synergy and an actual D&D Ruleset. They obviously don't care about the Class System enough. There is 0% balance in this game so far.

Last edited by JDCrenton; 14/03/21 06:10 PM.
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Well, I've just concluded my first druid run. My impression is that the druid is not the most powerful character you can build in this game, but they are a fun party animal to play. wink

What I've liked the best was figuring the combination of spells and shapes for the occassion. Teaming up with Shadowheart for " bless the wolf, then exposing bite & inflict wound" combination was just nasty (I didn't have Astarion in my party, but I suspect sneak attack would have worked even better than here). Laezel with the magical shoes from the spider cave combined with the spider form & web worked out quite nicely too. The only companion that didn't mesh all that well with my druid was Wyll, but I don't really know how to build & play a warlock. In retrospect I should have given him the repelling blast; that way he could have used eldritch blast to push back enemies into aoes. I've used the void bulbs for this purpose instead, but they are a limited resource. On the downside the flaming sphere and spike growth were problematic to use, because they don't seem to register as dangerous spell effects with npcs. I've had both companions and neutral npcs walk through a spike growth field after a battle, killing themselves in the process.

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Originally Posted by Starlights
Originally Posted by Ankou
Now, at level 5 wizard will be blasting people with fireballs, with unlimited rests apparently, and just smoking everything. Fighter will be attacking twice and starting to become a major DPS threat with high AC (which druid animal form doesn't have so it's doubly outclassed). Warlock is sending out two eldritch blasts per hit, doubling its damage WITH hex (each blast is getting your agonizing blast boost and count as separate hits for hex, so you're doing 2*(5+4+3)=24 on average per hit from range, which is an excellent combo. Etc. etc. Druid in bear form will be doing a single hit on dudes with 40+ health doing less than half what the Warlock does with an infinite resource, eating 40 damage a turn at least, and you'll be totally discouraged from using animal form, hence why moon druid is pointless.

You did not close your parenthesis, your equation is wrong smile

The OP is referring to the "Druid Class" and the first post even mention spells. To the following comment:

Originally Posted by Adiktus
In short, druid is not the class for the power gamer, or, I would argue, for a beginner.

.. I concede one point to OP's comment; "not for a beginner". However, if you are not a beginner, then the Druid is overpower.

My definition of overpower is: you are able to solo the game with a class, that through the mechanics of the game will make the run through easy and cheesy. (you can chill on a rooftop, with your glass of margarita , while you are moving moonbeam or flaming ball around and killing everyone).

Then every class in the game is overpowered because it's not the class that's able to solo, it's the Larian mechanics that are homebrewed into the game. It's these homebrew choices that are heavily imbalancing the game, and I discussed other classes to show how this will snowball. Some classes will benefit more and more over time from these choices becoming absolute monsters, and others will be middle-ground, and moon druid will suck. Again, the point of moon druid is to be the animal transformation class, but they are not good in combat, which is head scratching because it seems like the bear transformation was nerfed for no reason in converting it from the TT to BG3. Your video proved it's worthless, given that it wasn't even used at all. I don't know what you're arguing about given that the point of the class is something that this power gamer is totally ignoring, abusing dip and elevation mechanics instead.

Also, if you want to be pedantic the equation was correct, and the sentence was also not "wrong" it merely contained a typo since there shouldn't be any parentheses there at all.

Last edited by Ankou; 15/03/21 05:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Starlights
Originally Posted by Ankou
Now, at level 5 wizard will be blasting people with fireballs, with unlimited rests apparently, and just smoking everything. Fighter will be attacking twice and starting to become a major DPS threat with high AC (which druid animal form doesn't have so it's doubly outclassed). Warlock is sending out two eldritch blasts per hit, doubling its damage WITH hex (each blast is getting your agonizing blast boost and count as separate hits for hex, so you're doing 2*(5+4+3)=24 on average per hit from range, which is an excellent combo. Etc. etc. Druid in bear form will be doing a single hit on dudes with 40+ health doing less than half what the Warlock does with an infinite resource, eating 40 damage a turn at least, and you'll be totally discouraged from using animal form, hence why moon druid is pointless.

You did not close your parenthesis, your equation is wrong smile

The OP is referring to the "Druid Class" and the first post even mention spells.

Ankou is aware of that. He is comparing it to other classes to highlight how much weaker it is.

Exactly. Basically how can druid be OP if everything else is more powerful? The homebrew basically makes anything OP by this fellow's definition, but I don't want to be abusing mechanics and cheesing, I want to feel like I have a tough character without all that garbage, and, at the moment, moon druid doesn't have that. I really hope Larian takes a serious look at how they are balancing these classes, especially when they are deviating from the 5e rules to make a class weaker for no reason. I just don't get it.

Last edited by Ankou; 15/03/21 05:23 PM.
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Hi Ankou smile
Originally Posted by Ankou
Originally Posted by Starlights
Originally Posted by Ankou
Now, at level 5 wizard will be blasting people with fireballs, with unlimited rests apparently, and just smoking everything. Fighter will be attacking twice and starting to become a major DPS threat with high AC (which druid animal form doesn't have so it's doubly outclassed). Warlock is sending out two eldritch blasts per hit, doubling its damage WITH hex (each blast is getting your agonizing blast boost and count as separate hits for hex, so you're doing 2*(5+4+3)=24 on average per hit from range, which is an excellent combo. Etc. etc. Druid in bear form will be doing a single hit on dudes with 40+ health doing less than half what the Warlock does with an infinite resource, eating 40 damage a turn at least, and you'll be totally discouraged from using animal form, hence why moon druid is pointless.

You did not close your parenthesis, your equation is wrong smile

The OP is referring to the "Druid Class" and the first post even mention spells. To the following comment:

Originally Posted by Adiktus
In short, druid is not the class for the power gamer, or, I would argue, for a beginner.

.. I concede one point to OP's comment; "not for a beginner". However, if you are not a beginner, then the Druid is overpower.

My definition of overpower is: you are able to solo the game with a class, that through the mechanics of the game will make the run through easy and cheesy. (you can chill on a rooftop, with your glass of margarita , while you are moving moonbeam or flaming ball around and killing everyone).

Then every class in the game is overpowered because it's not the class that's able to solo, it's the Larian mechanics that are homebrewed into the game. It's these homebrew choices that are heavily imbalancing the game, and I discussed other classes to show how this will snowball. Some classes will benefit more and more over time from these choices becoming absolute monsters, and others will be middle-ground, and moon druid will suck. Again, the point of moon druid is to be the animal transformation class, but they are not good in combat, which is head scratching because it seems like the bear transformation was nerfed for no reason in converting it from the TT to BG3. Your video proved it's worthless, given that it wasn't even used at all. I don't know what you're arguing about given that the point of the class is something that this power gamer is totally ignoring, abusing dip and elevation mechanics instead.

Ha, we are in the same both, as I don't understand your point either smile

Currently, the Druid Class is overpower. That's my opinion.

When the game progress, then it will be quite different. We don't know how the other classes will be implemented - and we can't know as Larian is altering the classes from 5th edition(ex.: ranger). Maybe with other classes, the Moon Druid will be tune up, while other classes may get tune down.
Will there be a secret build when you multi-class and will unbalance the game ? Who knows, but I am certain that there will be a "game" balance exercise.

thanks

Last edited by Starlights; 15/03/21 11:40 PM.

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Honnestly I don't really understand how we could talk about class balance while every class can solo'd the game due to OP mechanics.

These mechanics totally tone down the differences between classes and everyone can use the same tricks to beat the game. I really don't see what we could really compare.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 16/03/21 09:58 AM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Honnestly I don't really understand how we could talk about class balance while every class can solo'd the game due to OP mechanics.

These mechanics totally tone down the differences between classes and everyone can use the same tricks to beat the game. I really don't see what we could really compare.
+1

Plus we do not have all classes and we only get to lv4.


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Id have to agree. When you have unlimited food, unlimited potions, unlimited scrolls, unlimited rest, and shared OP mechanics. At that point <classes> are basically just gravy and show. No HARD restrictions. Spell-books for example...uuh. Whats the point of other spell caster classes...when a mage can learn and use everything?

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 16/03/21 11:06 AM.
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Look, that's my point. Every class can cheese with the same Larianisms, so in order to do a baseline comparison, you have to basically eliminate the common denominators and compare what remains. If you want to restrict yourself to the actual class and attempt some semblance of playing the game as if it were a 5e campaign, the druid is not very good, and moon druid is unquestionably way worse than the land druid due to the choices Larian has made. It's not fun to feel like you're totally handicapping yourself, and if anything, it's even worse when you're already sort of doing that by playing normally. Put another way, do you want to play a class that absolutely has more pressure to cheese because its class features are that much weaker? I don't. I want to be able to play as the class with success using the primary tools of the class itself. Something the power gaming videos shows you absolutely should not do.

Now, you may say my complaint is premature. It may be, or it may not, hence it's important somebody point out how and why the current trajectory is poor. Hopefully somebody at Larian realizes I'm talking sense and then it never does become a problem for the final game. Otherwise, I'll just point to this topic in a year when people say, "Druid is left in the dust at level 5, what the hell?"

Last edited by Ankou; 16/03/21 04:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ankou
Look, that's my point. Every class can cheese with the same Larianisms, so in order to do a baseline comparison, you have to basically eliminate the common denominators and compare what remains. If you want to restrict yourself to the actual class and attempt some semblance of playing the game as if it were a 5e campaign, the druid is not very good, and moon druid is unquestionably way worse than the land druid due to the choices Larian has made. It's not fun to feel like you're totally handicapping yourself, and if anything, it's even worse when you're already sort of doing that by playing normally. Put another way, do you want to play a class that absolutely has more pressure to cheese because its class features are that much weaker? I don't. I want to be able to play as the class with success using the primary tools of the class itself. Something the power gaming videos shows you absolutely should not do.

Now, you may say my complaint is premature. It may be, or it may not, hence it's important somebody point out how and why the current trajectory is poor. Hopefully somebody at Larian realizes I'm talking sense and then it never does become a problem for the final game. Otherwise, I'll just point to this topic in a year when people say, "Druid is left in the dust at level 5, what the hell?"

Do you consider GWM as a primary tools for fighters or not ? What about warding flare (buggy), shockwave or sneak attack ?

I mean... Every classes are boosted a way or another by larian's rules (or what looks to be bugs but who knows...)

If you remove every OP things in the game I'm not sure classes are so badly balanced. I really don't see any "huge" issues with the druid even if it's really hard to have a good vision because those OP mechanics are litteraly everywhere.
I love verticality but I also consider it as OP. Highground is kind of a godmode and Shove/Shockwave can nearly OS every creatures (it was unintended in my solo playthrough but the matriarch spider fall in the underdark through the hole... Guess what ? Dead^^)

I have the feeling that all classes have their pro/con. Who knows if the bear is going to have a multi attack or not at level 5 ? Who knows if moonbeam is buggy or if the 2*2D10 are intended ?

And I really don't see any huge issues if you compare moon and land. Maybe they should have a very different play style but the balance doesn't looks broken to me because of image mirror and misty step.
Wildshape as a bonus action + bear and bird (fly) add a LOTS of versatility/hp pool, it doesn't cost any spell slot and it's way better than any healing potion.

(Maybe the balance between the lands are, that's something else)

Last edited by Maximuuus; 16/03/21 10:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Honnestly I don't really understand how we could talk about class balance while every class can solo'd the game due to OP mechanics.

These mechanics totally tone down the differences between classes and everyone can use the same tricks to beat the game. I really don't see what we could really compare.

It is the recurrent theme, trivialization of the Class System through encounters designed around gimmicks. If i took every single Larian gimmick out i would say the most op class is the one that has more actions per turn early and dmg bonus which points to Fighters and Rogues. Spells are also part of the gimmicks since most are not working like a D&D spell. This is also because as we know there's a very low level cap atm.

Last edited by JDCrenton; 16/03/21 07:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ankou
60 HP doesn't mean much when even the slightly closer to level 5 enemies we run into chew through your lack of AC and more than 40 damage a turn. It's better than nothing, but moon druid is extremely underpowered at the moment and it's not clear how they'll scale it to be better. One obvious thing, as I've mentioned many times, is overcome their programming limitation and allow the transformed druid to maintain control over its concentration spells. That would help a bit, since you could use the old druid classic of casting a spell, transforming, and hiding or flying to safety and then maintaining control without getting hit and losing concentration. That's the moon druid special, as far as magic is concerned, and as it is now you have really no reason to go moon instead of land. Polar bear just isn't close to good enough, not without 2 attacks like 1 CR transformation bear is supposed to have.


This ability is given at higher levels of the druid. You can transform, and cast spells from animal form, and maintain concentration. It's just a more advanced ability.

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Id have to agree. When you have unlimited food, unlimited potions, unlimited scrolls, unlimited rest, and shared OP mechanics. At that point <classes> are basically just gravy and show. No HARD restrictions. Spell-books for example...uuh. Whats the point of other spell caster classes...when a mage can learn and use everything?

Yea, that was brought up previously, which I believe Larian knows is a bug (or an unexpected "feature" which will be removed before launch). Also... Why does food give you back HP? In a single shooter game, sure, but in a game like this where you have time to plan, as well as spell and potions to heal? Nah, food shouldn't give HP back. Magic, potions and rest is all we should have for that.

Tweaking is needed and tweaking will be done. Just need patience. smile

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Originally Posted by Vortex138
Tweaking is needed and tweaking will be done. Just need patience. smile

Exactly my point, yes. smile


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We're essentially QA testers. If we're just telling Larian we think everything is fine, we're not doing our duty and they're going to think everything is fine and not fix anything. So I don't think it's fair to say we should just be patient. We should voice our concerns as clearly and consistently as possible to make sure the final product is as good as possible.

Last edited by Ankou; 17/03/21 12:58 AM.
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