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Originally Posted by GM4Him
RNG is meant to create excitement. You attack and might not always do the same amount of damage. You heal, it may not be a lot, or it may be a ton. You shove, you may get your enemy off you and your companions. You might not.

The problem isn't the RNG. It's the extremes in BG3, and that's the point. Shove shouldn't be so extreme. 5 ft is all you should be able to be pushed... Or knocked prone. It should very rarely send you off a cliff or into lava.

It is the extremes that make the RNG so bad. It's not the RNG itself.


+1 to the OP.

It is the extremes or the lack of balance in the mechanics that make it feel way too hard at first…and then way too easy once you know how to exploit those same mechanics.

My first playthrough was as a wizard. The first 15-20 hours consisted of getting dropped within a round or two in most encounters as you were targeted by, often, overpowered enemies. When you got a chance to loose a spell before getting downed, they frequently missed (felt like always). The last 10 hours I got the mechanics but basically ended up being an archer with a crossbow who misty-stepped to high ground straight away. Wizards are hard at low levels, I get that, but it wasn’t fulfilling in either phase.

Started a second playthrough as an actual ranger based archer. As I knew the mechanics and encounters, I annihilated everything for the first 10-15 hours but it was so repetitive I gave up.

Don’t recall such extremes in an rpg experience before and I can only explain it by lack of balance/extremes (eg shoving) in the mechanics.

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The extremes are why I'm trying to get more of a balanced 5e RAW difficulty setting. Doesn't have to be hardcore strict 5e, but something much closer.

But again, balanced around 5e. Don't give me 5e after you've balanced encounters around homebrew and then the only way I can play 5e is of I'm going up against ridiculously hard enemies.

I've tested the encounters in BG3 with tabletop. Almost every encounter is Deadly CR after the grove. Spiders, gnolls, Gith patrol... Especially the Underdark like the bulette and minotaurs and especially with party of 4 at level 4.

Balance encounters for 5e rules around party of 4 Custom with 2 Origin, total of 6, and use proper enemy 5e stats and you can keep all encounters as is. Even the beginning intellect devourers are doable with party of 5 (4 customs and Shadowheart) if you use proper 5e stats and make them as wounded as they are now.

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It’s like they’ve assumed everyone will exploit the mechanics and so they’ve made enemies ridiculously overpowered to compensate.

Which leads to the game either feeling too hard or too easy.

It doesn’t feel right. Sure, you’re at risk of dying in rpgs if you make poor choices, are underprepared or wander into the wrong situation. But the amount of enemies that can one shot you at low levels in BG3 is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Broadsword
It’s like they’ve assumed everyone will exploit the mechanics and so they’ve made enemies ridiculously overpowered to compensate.

Which leads to the game either feeling too hard or too easy.

It doesn’t feel right. Sure, you’re at risk of dying in rpgs if you make poor choices, are underprepared or wander into the wrong situation. But the amount of enemies that can one shot you at low levels in BG3 is just silly.

Not 100%. They've realized that some encounters were too hard using 5e stats. So, they EITHER nerfed enemies or overpowered them.

Nerfed enemies include all imps in the prologue. When they first released the EA, imps had resistance like they should, but people freaked out that they were too hard, so instead of switching to easier fiends, they nerfed the imps so they can't sting, turn invisible or have resistance.

Another enemy nerfed is intellect devourers who have no resistance, can't devour intellect or body thief anyone. So, they are all underpowered devourers.

Skeletons guarding the Necromancer lair were also severely nerfed. It used to be a really hard fight with like 8 skeletons. They reduced it to like 3. It's pretty lame now. I'd like 8 skeletons with proper 5e stats. It's work just fine, then. 13 HP and AC. +4 to hit. Yeah. We can take em.

Wood woads and mud mephits were also nerfed because the encounter was too hard. That'll happen, though, when you put a party of 4 level 4 or less players against 2 wood woads and mephits that can replicate super easily. A mud mephit has a 25% chance to produce 1d4 more once per day, but those mephits can replicate real fast and without fail. So, they had to nerf all enemies there so they wouldn't be too hard.

Minthara is kinda nerfed. Ragzlin should be like a Hobgoblin Warlord, so he's also nerfed. Then, to compensate, Halsin is terribly weak for a druid leader who is supposed to have fought Dark Justiciars over a hundred years earlier. Olodan is weak for a powerful shadow druid, etc., Etc., Etc.

OP enemies are phase spiders and the hag (green hags aren't supposed to be as tough as she is. They're not supposed to solo you. They're supposed to fight you with their coven for max effectiveness, or they fight alongside minions). Phase spiders who can teleport and spit poison goo on everyone are pretty dang op phase spiders. A hag who can create 2 more versions of herself and each gets to attack with spells each round is also quite OP.

The Gith fight is super hard, but honestly, they are done pretty well. The issue with that fight is that they are way too tough for level 4 or lower characters. If you were level 5, it would make a HUGE difference. Same with the minotaurs, hook horrors and bulette.

Honestly, the whole game needs a good encounter rebalancing using proper 5e stats as the base.

All that said, I'm replaying it again, though, and really trying to do what I did the first time. I'm trying to roleplay. I made a barbarian half-elf and a, going through playing as if I am really him going through all this. Without any rebalancing or tweaks, game as is, I am able to get to the dank crypt without a single rest. I just used my first short rest because I wanted to replenish Shadowheart's Invoke Duplicity. Haven't used a single potion or nothing - not even the healing chambers on the Nautiloid.

I'm going to continue to push on without a long rest as long as I can because, you know, I've got this thing in my head that I'm afraid will turn me into a mind flayer. We'll see how far I can go.

Last edited by GM4Him; 01/04/22 05:05 AM.
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The other day I was trying to do quest with Nere in Grymforge... But each my try I was ending with 9 hostile duergars with much higher initiative, so I found that battle just impossible for me.
So after several tries I start abusing game mechanics by killing non-hostile npcs *before* doing last quest dialog. I was sneaking to the NPC, hit with knifes to remove like 2/3 of hp bar, then persuade them that I meant no harm ("Yes, I just hit you twice with knife in back, but that was just a friendly sparring, don't pay attention!"), then quickly hit again before they heal, and then persuade everyone around that it wasn't me ("How can you think about me that badly? I am a tender peace lily, I never harmed anyone in my life! Well, yes, I am a drow and I stand on the corpse of your friend with a bloodied knife, but I assure you it is 500% not me!").
Or just push them in lava. 30% chance to push is not big, so I was pushing, persuading that I just did it by mistake, then pushing again, persuading, pushing, persuading... Then persuade everyone around that it wasn't me.

That was absolutely absurd and silly situation that had nothing to do with role-playing or having fun. And I would have never done that under any normal game circumstances... but I just stuck with the quest and was not able to play further.
Someone enjoys such gameplay. I don't. I play such games for story and rpg. And from rpg point approaching NPC, talking and, maybe, fighting, is normal. Sneaking behind, positioning companions in sneak on high ground *before* talking, moving characters around to hit while main character is in dialog mode, positioning explosive barrels with magic hand around NPC etc. has, imho, absolutely nothing to do with role-playing. Or with immersion. The immersion is just blown away completely.

Waiting for the story mode. So I can enjoy the story without abusing mechanics and without companions who are "missing" while trying to hit an enemy in the back with knife from sneak standing 10 cm away... I have no idea how they manage to do so.. Probably they are just completely blind... though I am not sure that even a blind person would miss from such a distance frown

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What is wrong with positioning in advance? O_o
I mean sure in DnD session usualy everyone wants to be in middle of the action, since nobody wants to miss opourtunity to steal their few seconds on spotlight ... and you can hardly intervene with dialogue, when you are hiding in shadows 20m away preparing your poisoned arrow. laugh

But in general ...
Positioning and preparing for bad things that can (and will, since we are going to start them) happen seems totally in line with story, and roleplay to me. O_o


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
What is wrong with positioning in advance? O_o
I mean sure in DnD session usualy everyone wants to be in middle of the action, since nobody wants to miss opourtunity to steal their few seconds on spotlight ... and you can hardly intervene with dialogue, when you are hiding in shadows 20m away preparing your poisoned arrow. laugh

But in general ...
Positioning and preparing for bad things that can (and will, since we are going to start them) happen seems totally in line with story, and roleplay to me. O_o

Because that works good when you are replaying the game and know where the danger is. Or if there is a big DANGER sign.
If you are just approaching a nice house of an old lady you don't know that you have first to sneak inside, take high grounds and then go talking
If you are entering a hug lair you don't know that in that particular room you must spread and go in sneak in particular direction because there is a hug in stealth
If you are running with explosives to help free people trapped with poison you don't know that you first must remove some neutral npcs and then position companions in sneak

I doubt that when you was playing that game first time you was 100% moving in stealth and with your group split around and taking positions around any npc you met smile

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Not any, just those who looked like they would cause throubles when provoked ...
You know ... like Githyanki patrol, Duergars on the beach (as far as i know they werent stealthing in first builds), Duergars at Grymforge, all Goblin leaders, ... in short any group that was at least little biger, or scarier than mine. laugh


Actualy when i first time approached the house, i allready killed redcaps, so i kinda "should have know" there is something off ... but no, i didnt position my party there, since conversation started once i entered the house. laugh
But also i didnt need to, since one jump from those doors get you to high ground. wink

As for the lair itself, you start there on High Ground aswell, so again no position needed. laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Actualy when i first time approached the house, i allready killed redcaps, so i kinda "should have know" there is something off ... but no, i didnt position my party there, since conversation started once i entered the house. laugh
But also i didnt need to, since one jump from those doors get you to high ground. wink

As for the lair itself, you start there on High Ground aswell, so again no position needed. laugh

Well, I didn't killed redcaps reventively because, well, I don't have habit of attacking non-hostile npc/mobs just because i see them
So I was just completely stuck with battle, because that redcaps appeared to be much stronger then my "all so mighty" companions smile

And in the lair... yes, you start on high ground, and with -1 turn, 3 hags and bunch of debuffs
Was only manages to kill her with "move one character in sneak until you will see hag through stealth, put silence, then move other characters in sneak into battle one by one" guide. All that "one character is frozen in battle/dialog and others can run around and do what they want as long as they want" stuff just feels very wrong for me... frown

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
What is wrong with positioning in advance? O_o
I mean sure in DnD session usualy everyone wants to be in middle of the action, since nobody wants to miss opourtunity to steal their few seconds on spotlight ... and you can hardly intervene with dialogue, when you are hiding in shadows 20m away preparing your poisoned arrow. laugh
I think you answered yourself here - if it was entirely hostile dungeon with enemies set to attack then it would be a different matter. Of course, majority of players will want to experience the story content, so it is not good if that results in worse combat experience.

I don’t remember that encounter being too challenging, except the constant danger of being one-shot to death with shove due to nearness of lava and death pits on almost all sides of the arena.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
What is wrong with positioning in advance? O_o
I mean sure in DnD session usualy everyone wants to be in middle of the action, since nobody wants to miss opourtunity to steal their few seconds on spotlight ... and you can hardly intervene with dialogue, when you are hiding in shadows 20m away preparing your poisoned arrow. laugh
I think you answered yourself here - if it was entirely hostile dungeon with enemies set to attack then it would be a different matter. Of course, majority of players will want to experience the story content, so it is not good if that results in worse combat experience.

I don’t remember that encounter being too challenging, except the constant danger of being one-shot to death with shove due to nearness of lava and death pits on almost all sides of the arena.

In which case, positioning doesn't matter because you can be shoved into lava anywhere, practically. smile

But it depends on if you side with Brithvar or not, and how many duergar you killed during your exploration. If you are more of a pacifist, that duergar fight is brutal. To make it easier, you need to be a murder hobo as you go around Grymforge, slowly killing them off here and there. And then you need to pick sides so that they will fight each other.

I'm with Dierdre on this one, though. I had the same experiences. My first playthrough, I expected trouble with the hag, but that doesn't mean I'd show up at her house taking positions all around it and only sending one person inside or something. I showed up and walked in with my party because I expected they'd possibly be needed INSIDE. She runs out in no time, and the next thing I know, redcaps have made it to the house and are in melee range while I was battling her thinking I needed to kill her fast.

Is that bad strategy on my part? Maybe. Either way, it wasn't fun.

Last edited by GM4Him; 01/04/22 11:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
I don’t remember that encounter being too challenging, except the constant danger of being one-shot to death with shove due to nearness of lava and death pits on almost all sides of the arena.

If you are about my problem with duergars, the main problem for me was 9 enemies, that is "a little bit" too much for my party of 4 + Nere who is somewhere there.
And yes, flying into lava was a 100% part of the battle frown

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Originally Posted by Deirdre
Well, I didn't killed redcaps reventively because, well, I don't have habit of attacking non-hostile npc/mobs just because i see them
I wonder where did you get that ...

Actualy what happened was that my character succed in Nature(i believe?) check and realized that all around her is just ilusion ... then i told it to Redcaps, bcs i had no desire to play at sheeps with them ... then they started to threaten me ... and when i bothered then enough (talked to each of them) they simply had enough of it and attacked me instead.

So, as i said ... the result was that i allready killed recaps ... everything else are your own false presumptions. laugh

And result of THAT was when i entered the house i was not coming to "smiling old lady in her cute house in the woods" ... but i allready known, that this woman who just few minutes ago teleported away in green cloud of smoke lives in poisonous swamp, surounded by murderous sadistic fae creatures ...


Originally Posted by Deirdre
And in the lair... yes, you start on high ground, and with -1 turn, 3 hags and bunch of debuffs
And just in next turn you reduce their numbers back to 1, if you either have caster or are willing to use scrolls with your non-caster character. smile


Originally Posted by Deirdre
Was only manages to kill her with "move one character in sneak until you will see hag through stealth, put silence, then move other characters in sneak into battle one by one" guide.
Im not sure if i would call anything that encourages abusing exploits a "guide". :-/
Wanna my advice? smile

Ethel clones dissapear after first damage they recedive ...
So either use AoE spells, or multitarget spells ...

My personal favourite for this fight are Magic Missiles, bcs they never miss as long as they even can be casted on target ... Magic Missiles level 2 > 4 missiles > 4 targets > 1 Hag left. wink
Works like a charm. wink


Originally Posted by Deirdre
All that "one character is frozen in battle/dialog and others can run around and do what they want as long as they want" stuff just feels very wrong for me... frown
Yup, thats bcs its simple exploit. laugh

But thats not what im talking about ...
You know, you can in most situation position your party before you even start talking ... from roleplay perspective you can call it "just in case" ...

Sure, sometimes its easier like Grymforge, or GIthyanki fights ... sometimes it is impossible, like in boat fight ...
But its allways usefull. smile


Originally Posted by Wormerine
Of course, majority of players will want to experience the story content, so it is not good if that results in worse combat experience.
I believe they can ...
There is only one character who can speak anyway ... even tho i admit that if you are playing Sorcerer, or Wizard, you send your Tav into much greater danger to talk ... compared to Barbarian Tav for example. laugh

But just the fact that in nearby bush Rogue with prepared bow is awaiting first sign of battle doesnt mean at all, that you "cant enjoy story". O_o


Originally Posted by Wormerine
I don’t remember that encounter being too challenging, except the constant danger of being one-shot to death with shove due to nearness of lava and death pits on almost all sides of the arena.
Honestly, me neither ... it is one of the more tedious, that much is certainly true ...
But nothing earthshaking.

It even seemed funny to me when i was there, that it felt much easier than Githyanki battle, while there is much more Duergars, and they all also have level 5!

There is certainly several ways to make this game a lot thougher for yourself tho ...
So without any futher details, who can tell what caused this difficiulty? :-/


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Many of us are telling since the beginning that the difficulty and the balance of combats are very affecyed by Larian's homebrew rules and the necessity they have to rebalance all monsters.
This has not changed and the game can still range from hard to very easy depending what you use (and your knwoledge of the system but that is not unusual).

It's still strange and I'm still very worried about higher difficulty levels. But let's be honnest it's way better now than before... Thanks to patch 5 and 6.

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So ... today i decided to take a little different approach.
And i rushed right to Nere ... i blown up the cave-in and save Nere ... then i sided with him ...

Combat was fast ...
fist shove was Lae'zel > insta death ...
next turn it was Wyll > insta death ... both from the middle of the room. laugh
next turn was Gale, i misty stepped to the high ground and Thunderwave the Duergar down ...
next turn they snoved Nere into lava ... poor Nere. laugh
then my Barbarian Frenzyed ...
Next round i also activated tadpole power ...
And then it was pretty much single strike killing. laugh

So i reloaded ...
And try it again, with pissing nere off.
Nobody shoved anybody this time ... my i got whipped my ass hard
Wyll missed all 5 attacks he had ... Gale was mind controlled and killed Lae'zel ... and my Barbarian stand no chace against everyone else. laugh

So i reload again ... and i wonder how will it end this time. laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
There is only one character who can speak anyway ...
Incorrect(?) Companions interject in conversations so it make sense to keep them with you as often as possible. They also can support you in roll checks, so again - unintuitive to expect players to keep them away. Control system is clunky and unresponsive so Larian really shouldn't expect players to not unchain character too often.

(disclaimer: I don't know if companions interjections and ability to support PC in skill rolls is dependent on distance or being chained to them. If it is, then my argument stands. If it is not - that it's just silly.)


Originally Posted by GM4Him
In which case, positioning doesn't matter because you can be shoved into lava anywhere, practically. smile
Yes, that was the most outrageous shove-centric experience I had in the game: an overwhelming number of enemies doing shove almost every turn, and if you fail the check just once you're dead. Perhaps, having to pray every turn for enemies to not shove my party to death have overidden any other issues this encounter might have had. Can't say. Did it once, and am not going within proximity of this fight until shove stops being Finger of Death that NPCs can cast as bonus action on every turn.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Companions interject in conversations so it make sense to keep them with you as often as possible.
Yeah i gues you have to make your choice ...
I made mine and im quite fine with the outcome.


Originally Posted by Wormerine
They also can support you in roll checks
You mean guidance?
You can do that yourself, there is neck for that.


Originally Posted by Wormerine
unintuitive to expect players to keep them away. Control system is clunky and unresponsive so Larian really shouldn't expect players to not unchain character too often.
This both is pure matter of personal prefferences ...


Originally Posted by Wormerine
(disclaimer: I don't know if companions interjections and ability to support PC in skill rolls is dependent on distance or being chained to them. If it is, then my argument stands. If it is not - that it's just silly.)
Me neither. laugh


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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Control system is clunky and unresponsive so Larian really shouldn't expect players to not unchain character too often.

When I was palying first time I didnt even know it is possible to move characters separately laugh

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Wormerine
unintuitive to expect players to keep them away. Control system is clunky and unresponsive so Larian really shouldn't expect players to not unchain character too often.
This both is pure matter of personal prefferences ...
No it is not. One might like playing shooters with controller, but mouse and keyboard is objectivelly more accurate and efficient. You might don't mind current system, but as I explained at length it is less efficient then what I consider to be an expected standard.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
This both is pure matter of personal prefferences ...
Coprophagy is a preference too, if you ask some people.

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