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I don't know how you're going to convince people that human or Tiefling racials are anywhere near the same degree of useful as elven and shield dwarf racials.

Let's look at Tiefling racials:

2 charisma, 1 intelligence
Darkvision
Fire resistance.

A useless non-combat cantrip or the even more useless mage hand that requires concentration and doesn't even have the strength for its single only use which would be to push enemies off elevation.

Lv3 a melee range fire cone spell that is not even guaranteed to land despite being single use per long rest.

Now let's look at Elven racials:

2 DEX
weapon proficiencies
1 wisdom/intellect or superior dark vision dependind on high elf/wood elf/drow
Immunity to sleep spell, saving throw against charm.
1.5m extra as wood elf and bonus to stealth
Perception bonus.


Now Shield Dwarf racial:

Light & medium armor proficiency. Spellcasters love this, especially when you get a circlet that gives you 18 intellect in EA and can start a caster with 1h+shield.
Bonus HP per level.
Poison resistance and saving throws against poison attacks (Tiefling only has fire resistance, no saving throws against flame attacks).
Weapon proficiencies
+2 constitution, +2 strength
-1.5m speed.

Remind me again why anyone would touch Tiefling or Humans when these other races are overloaded with far more benefits?

Charisma is virtually useful to a single class in EA, while DEX and Constitution are universally useful to all classes, and incredibly powerful since higher initiative and 1 more AC is pretty big and flexible. Even Strength on shield dwarf is more universal than Charisma, because it also functions in whether you can push targets off walls, increases your carrying capacity to deal with inventory clutter as this game showers you with grey items for sale, it allows you to jump further, etc (which mitigates the lesser movement speed of dwarf, since you cover more distance with jump).

They need to do something about racials balance.

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Humans are the worst race possible! Just couple of ability points more and nothing else. That couple of points won't benefit you in any way because they would go to abilities that you don't even really need. Also all the male human face models are ugly as hell.

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Originally Posted by MrSam
Humans are the worst race possible! Just couple of ability points more and nothing else. That couple of points won't benefit you in any way because they would go to abilities that you don't even really need. Also all the male human face models are ugly as hell.


I disagree. I like 16 dext /16 constitution /16 int/cha/wis with casters or 16 str with paladins and such classes.

Maybe not "the best", but I like.

On the other hand fire resistance and poison resistance are only "OP" in a world designed by Larian.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 15/03/21 05:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by MrSam
Humans are the worst race possible! Just couple of ability points more and nothing else. That couple of points won't benefit you in any way because they would go to abilities that you don't even really need. Also all the male human face models are ugly as hell.


For some reason the male elf gets the face option with the best, manliest statuesque jawline while ironically the humans get mostly baby faces. I'm also envious of the faux hawk hairstyle Githyanki get. Too bad Githyanki males look awful like Betty Spaghetti, you can't take it seriously as a warrior race when they're built like noodles.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by MrSam
Humans are the worst race possible! Just couple of ability points more and nothing else. That couple of points won't benefit you in any way because they would go to abilities that you don't even really need. Also all the male human face models are ugly as hell.


I disagree. I like 16 dext /16 constitution /16 int/cha/wis with casters or 16 str with paladins and such classes.

Maybe not "the best", but I like.

On the other hand fire resistance and poison resistance are only "OP" in a world designed by Larian.

Poison resistance is actually pretty useful, because at least in the first act many enemies use poison, and poison carries the additional debuff of debuffing your attack rolls.

Fire resistance is mostly useless because other than halving the damage it does nothing else, and few creatures use fire attacks in Act 1. Even then, halved fire damage but no saving roll bonus against burning is pretty dumb.

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For some reason the male elf gets the face option with the best, manliest statuesque jawline while ironically the humans get mostly baby faces. I'm also envious of the faux hawk hairstyle Githyanki get. Too bad Githyanki males look awful like Betty Spaghetti, you can't take it seriously as a warrior race when they're built like noodles.

I liked male elf faces the most too. There was just one half elf face that was just ok for me but it sucks if your not happy with the way your character looks.

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Elves can't grow beards and therefore have the worst faces.

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Originally Posted by Zenith
Let's look at Tiefling racials:

2 charisma, 1 intelligence
Darkvision
Fire resistance.
A useless non-combat cantrip or the even more useless mage hand that requires concentration and doesn't even have the strength for its single only use which would be to push enemies off elevation.
-snip-

Remind me again why anyone would touch Tiefling or Humans when these other races are overloaded with far more benefits?

Charisma is virtually useful to a single class in EA...
1.) Charisma is useful for persuasion/intimidate checks, and presumably you want your MC to be the Face when talking to NPCs.
2.) As you said, Charisma is incredibly important for Warlocks
2b.) Charisma will be important for Sorcerers and Bards when implemented. Larian shouldn't change racial traits now, just to change them back when these classes are introduced.
3.) Enemies have fire arrows and vials of alchemist fire, so the fire resistance is pretty good. Especially since AI in BG3 focuses on low-AC characters, of which your Tiefling Warlock is probably one of.
4.) Larian has implemented mage hand incredibly poorly. It shouldn't be concentration and you should be able to have it and other summons out. The solution is to fix mage hand, not necessarily buff tieflings.

...but yeah, humans are a bit underpowered. Or maybe not underpowered, but at least less flashy.
Larian should implement the Variant Human, where you get +1/+1 and a feat.

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I have beard irl and I'm a fan of beards, but for some reason I don't like any beard style on any face in BG3. Can Larian give every race the option to wear face mask so you don't have to see those ugly faces? Let's pretend that COVID has infected forgotten realms too, mm'kay?

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Charisma is a must have for all my characters. I like to do the talking, all the time. I don't want to send a npc in for that. Plus tieflings are cool. So yeah, I probably played more tieflings than any other race.


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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Zenith
Let's look at Tiefling racials:

2 charisma, 1 intelligence
Darkvision
Fire resistance.
A useless non-combat cantrip or the even more useless mage hand that requires concentration and doesn't even have the strength for its single only use which would be to push enemies off elevation.
-snip-

Remind me again why anyone would touch Tiefling or Humans when these other races are overloaded with far more benefits?

Charisma is virtually useful to a single class in EA...
1.) Charisma is useful for persuasion/intimidate checks, and presumably you want your MC to be the Face when talking to NPCs.
2.) As you said, Charisma is incredibly important for Warlocks
2b.) Charisma will be important for Sorcerers and Bards when implemented. Larian shouldn't change racial traits now, just to change them back when these classes are introduced.
3.) Enemies have fire arrows and vials of alchemist fire, so the fire resistance is pretty good. Especially since AI in BG3 focuses on low-AC characters, of which your Tiefling Warlock is probably one of.
4.) Larian has implemented mage hand incredibly poorly. It shouldn't be concentration and you should be able to have it and other summons out. The solution is to fix mage hand, not necessarily buff tieflings.

...but yeah, humans are a bit underpowered. Or maybe not underpowered, but at least less flashy.
Larian should implement the Variant Human, where you get +1/+1 and a feat.


1) Charisma is totally irrelevant with Guidance and save scumming dialogue rolls anyways. There's not a single persuasion/intimidation check my elven druid had trouble passing, and it would have been even easier if I was Drow.

2) To a single class, and maybe 2 more down the line. That's still out of druid+fighter+rogue+wizard+cleric+sorcerer+warlock+paladin = 3/8 classes it is only relevant for. Dexterity is relevant for all of those.

2b) Let's change the racials, because the result of this racial is you pigeonhole a race to 3 single classes or have your stats go to waste because charisma is worthless in combat if you're not 3/8 of those classes as it currently stands.

3) These are almost never used, and when they are, higher AC is more valuable anyways since you can end up dodging the attack altogether. Furthermore, there are potions which grant you fire resistance, plenty easy to acquire, and these don't stack with the Tiefling racial. There are no potions of dexterity or initiative, and the thing about Dexterity is that it never becomes redundant or has diminishing returns, unlike the fire resistance which has a stack limit.

4) Even if it didn't require concentration, what would it do? Doesn't have enough base strength to even push enemies, and at best you'll be dropping some items on the ground next to your character and have the hand toss it. There's really not much in term of interaction the hand can do for you. Not remotely activate buttons safely or deactivate traps, etc.

Tiefling racials are hot trash. I could understand if the lv3 skill compensated, but it's utterly unreliable, so another Guiding Bolt gimmick in the grand scheme of things. Shield dwarf gets a total of 4 skill points. The least they could do for Tiefling is add +1DEX and bump dark vision to superior dark vision if they're not going to make the lv3 racial spell worthwhile.

Last edited by Zenith; 15/03/21 06:28 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zenith
1) Charisma is totally irrelevant with Guidance and save scumming dialogue rolls anyways. There's not a single persuasion/intimidation check my elven druid had trouble passing, and it would have been even easier if I was Drow.

2) To a single class, and maybe 2 more down the line. That's still out of druid+fighter+rogue+wizard+cleric+sorcerer+warlock+paladin = 3/8 classes it is only relevant for. Dexterity is relevant for all of those.

2b) Let's change the racials, because the result of this racial is you pigeonhole a race to 3 single classes or have your stats go to waste because charisma is worthless in combat if you're not 3/8 of those classes as it currently stands.

3) These are almost never used, and when they are, higher AC is more valuable anyways since you can end up dodging the attack altogether. Furthermore, there are potions which grant you fire resistance, plenty easy to acquire, and these don't stack with the Tiefling racial. There are no potions of dexterity or initiative, and the thing about Dexterity is that it never becomes redundant or has diminishing returns, unlike the fire resistance which has a stack limit.

4) Even if it didn't require concentration, what would it do? Doesn't have enough base strength to even push enemies, and at best you'll be dropping some items on the ground next to your character and have the hand toss it. There's really not much in term of interaction the hand can do for you. Not remotely activate buttons safely or deactivate traps, etc.

Tiefling racials are hot trash. I could understand if the lv3 skill compensated, but it's utterly unreliable, so another Guiding Bolt gimmick in the grand scheme of things.
1.) I mean, okay, if you bring in savescumming then skills check bonuses don't really matter. But the goal should be to not savescum, right?
2.) Out of 6 stats, 3/8 Charisma classes is overrepresented. I agree that dexterity is an uber-stat that is too OP in 5e, so the classes that don't get it are usually worse (except for Heavy Armor characters). But D&D isn't entirely combat, and especially given BG3's binary pass vs fail of dialogue checks, Charisma is decently important (again, ignoring savescumming because games shouldn't be balanced assuming it)
2b.) If Larian goes the way of Tasha's, where any race can get any +2/+1 bonus, then I could agree that tieflings should be buffed a bit.
3.) I think there should be less consumables in BG3, which somewhat addresses this. But yes, there are no potions of Dex +2
4.) Mage hand should be able to remotely activate traps or pick up items from far away. That's a HUGE use for it in PnP. Stand around the corner and have the mage hand open the chest. Or open barred doors from the other side

X.) Burning hands is a bit useless for a ranged caster I'll admit. Hellish rebuke or darkness would be better.
Edit: Totally forgot about Paladins. They need Charisma too

Last edited by mrfuji3; 15/03/21 07:15 PM. Reason: #3 and Paladins
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Dunno ... it seem to me like racials are so far closest to DnD from everything we get ...
So i would like this to stay intact. :-/


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Zenith
1) Charisma is totally irrelevant with Guidance and save scumming dialogue rolls anyways. There's not a single persuasion/intimidation check my elven druid had trouble passing, and it would have been even easier if I was Drow.
All abilities, skills, etc. are irrelevant if you're relying on save scumming. If you roll enough times, you can get what you want. Why is that even part of the conversation?

Originally Posted by Zenith
2) To a single class, and maybe 2 more down the line. That's still out of druid+fighter+rogue+wizard+cleric+sorcerer+warlock+paladin = 3/8 classes it is only relevant for. Dexterity is relevant for all of those.
Four classes use charisma as one of their primary abilities: bard, paladin, sorcerer, and warlock. That's a third of the classes in the PHB. Several subclasses (e.g. swashbuckler, berserker, several martial archetypes) also use it a fair amount. Dexterity is generally not relevant for melee characters that wear heavy armor (mostly clerics, fighters, and paladins). Also, having high dex and high chr are not mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by Zenith
2b) Let's change the racials, because the result of this racial is you pigeonhole a race to 3 single classes or have your stats go to waste because charisma is worthless in combat if you're not 3/8 of those classes as it currently stands.
Not everything is going to be useful in combat. Fighting is part of the game - not the whole game. You can play any race with any class - not getting that +1 to a specific ability modifier out of the gate is such a small deal; it amounts to a 5% lower chance to succeed at any particular check (which, if you're relying on save scumming, isn't relevant anyway) and is easily boosted with ASIs if you want when you hit later levels.

Originally Posted by Zenith
4) Even if it didn't require concentration, what would it do? Doesn't have enough base strength to even push enemies, and at best you'll be dropping some items on the ground next to your character and have the hand toss it. There's really not much in term of interaction the hand can do for you. Not remotely activate buttons safely or deactivate traps, etc.
Mage hand is a utility cantrip; it isn't intended for use in combat. There's no reason it should be able to push enemies or throw things at them to deal damage. It should be able to push buttons and pick up light objects. For arcane tricksters, it should be able to pick locks and disarm traps and even distract enemies in combat. It sucks that the implementation of Mage Hand in BG3 is so bad; it's incredibly useful in tabletop D&D.

Originally Posted by Zenith
Tiefling racials are hot trash. I could understand if the lv3 skill compensated, but it's utterly unreliable, so another Guiding Bolt gimmick in the grand scheme of things. Shield dwarf gets a total of 4 skill points. The least they could do for Tiefling is add +1DEX and bump dark vision to superior dark vision if they're not going to make the lv3 racial spell worthwhile.
Dwarves get some decent boosts, but they pay for it with reduced speed, which would actually be really important in combat if positioning were relevant. RAW tieflings are quite good, even if some of the details have been implemented poorly here.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
Originally Posted by Zenith
1) Charisma is totally irrelevant with Guidance and save scumming dialogue rolls anyways. There's not a single persuasion/intimidation check my elven druid had trouble passing, and it would have been even easier if I was Drow.
All abilities, skills, etc. are irrelevant if you're relying on save scumming. If you roll enough times, you can get what you want. Why is that even part of the conversation?

Originally Posted by Zenith
2) To a single class, and maybe 2 more down the line. That's still out of druid+fighter+rogue+wizard+cleric+sorcerer+warlock+paladin = 3/8 classes it is only relevant for. Dexterity is relevant for all of those.
Four classes use charisma as one of their primary abilities: bard, paladin, sorcerer, and warlock. That's a third of the classes in the PHB. Several subclasses (e.g. swashbuckler, berserker, several martial archetypes) also use it a fair amount. Dexterity is generally not relevant for melee characters that wear heavy armor (mostly clerics, fighters, and paladins). Also, having high dex and high chr are not mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by Zenith
2b) Let's change the racials, because the result of this racial is you pigeonhole a race to 3 single classes or have your stats go to waste because charisma is worthless in combat if you're not 3/8 of those classes as it currently stands.
Not everything is going to be useful in combat. Fighting is part of the game - not the whole game. You can play any race with any class - not getting that +1 to a specific ability modifier out of the gate is such a small deal; it amounts to a 5% lower chance to succeed at any particular check (which, if you're relying on save scumming, isn't relevant anyway) and is easily boosted with ASIs if you want when you hit later levels.

Originally Posted by Zenith
4) Even if it didn't require concentration, what would it do? Doesn't have enough base strength to even push enemies, and at best you'll be dropping some items on the ground next to your character and have the hand toss it. There's really not much in term of interaction the hand can do for you. Not remotely activate buttons safely or deactivate traps, etc.
Mage hand is a utility cantrip; it isn't intended for use in combat. There's no reason it should be able to push enemies or throw things at them to deal damage. It should be able to push buttons and pick up light objects. For arcane tricksters, it should be able to pick locks and disarm traps and even distract enemies in combat. It sucks that the implementation of Mage Hand in BG3 is so bad; it's incredibly useful in tabletop D&D.

Originally Posted by Zenith
Tiefling racials are hot trash. I could understand if the lv3 skill compensated, but it's utterly unreliable, so another Guiding Bolt gimmick in the grand scheme of things. Shield dwarf gets a total of 4 skill points. The least they could do for Tiefling is add +1DEX and bump dark vision to superior dark vision if they're not going to make the lv3 racial spell worthwhile.
Dwarves get some decent boosts, but they pay for it with reduced speed, which would actually be really important in combat if positioning were relevant. RAW tieflings are quite good, even if some of the details have been implemented poorly here.

- It's part of the conversation because save scumming a dialogue choice is asymmetrical to save scumming an entire fight. When you say it gives you an advantage to have charisma, it's a marginal advantage to begin with thanks to Guidance. Thus, the non-combat use of Charisma is marginal, and particularly so in Act 1 where resolution without violence usually means letting the psychopath go without a fight.

- Dexterity gives you initiative, and first turn advantage is far more useful than you're pretending it is not. Do the Githyanki patrol fight without first turn advantage and then another one where Beretha and the Raider get first move on your group and then get back to me. Besides, AC is never going to be redundant. 2 DEX is still 1AC and a lesser chance to be hit, heavy armor or not.

- Fighting is virtually the main aspect of the game. The largest difficulty checks in the game involve fighting, so aspects that involve fighting are as a result the most important for a character to have. Often to not fight means either sparing a villain or foregoing a valuable item that mob might have had.

- We can go about how it should have been implemented according to your ideals of a table top game, but the fact is I'm more interested with how it's actually implemented in a videogame that actually takes resources to build and create cohesion with instead of just imagining things and writing them down to pen and paper.

-Reduced speed doesn't matter at all to dwarves if you bothered to read because a) There's amulet of misty step, and b) Jump with +2 strength and athletic boots gives you an immense amount of mobility to address all your closing distance needs. And in case that isn't enough, you have boots of speed to give you a metric ton of movement. And that's the thing with utility/movement, you only need so much of it, in this case the only one necessary to land behind an enemy.





Even in a dedicated warlock build, the famed master of solo's and uber-optimized gameplay, sin tee, doesn't even use a Tiefling. Surprise, it's yet another elf. Who knew, with the incredibly trove of advantages sunk into one race, that +2 stats to a relevant attribute would be hardly worth the trade. It's also why come lv4 most people are not even taking the extra 2 bonus attributes, but instead picking up wizard/warlock initiate or grabbing medium armor proficiency.

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I can see why you might take a Tiefling over an Elf depending on class. I don't really see why you would take one over a half-elf. The +2 CHA and +1 to any of the 5 other stats, plus weapon proficiencies, plus skill proficiencies seems like a no-brainer to me...

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Originally Posted by Elessaria666
I can see why you might take a Tiefling over an Elf depending on class. I don't really see why you would take one over a half-elf. The +2 CHA and +1 to any of the 5 other stats, plus weapon proficiencies, plus skill proficiencies seems like a no-brainer to me...


Which is a shame, because they aesthetically implemented tieflings so well, they look amazing. But their racials are trash can.

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Zenith is right that racial abilities in this game aren't perfectly balanced at all.

And that's totally OK.

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Originally Posted by Zenith
Even in a dedicated warlock build, the famed master of solo's and uber-optimized gameplay, sin tee, doesn't even use a Tiefling. Surprise, it's yet another elf. Who knew, with the incredibly trove of advantages sunk into one race, that +2 stats to a relevant attribute would be hardly worth the trade. It's also why come lv4 most people are not even taking the extra 2 bonus attributes, but instead picking up wizard/warlock initiate or grabbing medium armor proficiency.
Part of the issue is the proliferation of spell scrolls and consumables + Larian's Homebrew. If shove only made the minotaur go prone, that fight would have been quite different.

Dex was already a potent stat in 5e and with Larian's homebrew it's even more valuable in Baldur's Gate 3.

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Originally Posted by Zenith
- It's part of the conversation because save scumming a dialogue choice is asymmetrical to save scumming an entire fight. When you say it gives you an advantage to have charisma, it's a marginal advantage to begin with thanks to Guidance. Thus, the non-combat use of Charisma is marginal, and particularly so in Act 1 where resolution without violence usually means letting the psychopath go without a fight.
So what? Any kind of save scumming is an "I decide to win" button. No one should be designing around that - if they want that to be a feature, they should just add the button and be done with it. If they're not adding the button, it's difficult to care that one kind of save scumming is harder than another. As to the second part, it's a marginal advantage because +1 is a marginal difference - it has nothing to do with Guidance.

Originally Posted by Zenith
- Dexterity gives you initiative, and first turn advantage is far more useful than you're pretending it is not. Do the Githyanki patrol fight without first turn advantage and then another one where Beretha and the Raider get first move on your group and then get back to me. Besides, AC is never going to be redundant. 2 DEX is still 1AC and a lesser chance to be hit, heavy armor or not.
Again, we're talking about a +1 difference in your initiative. It's not going to bump you from last to first. At best, you might swap places with a couple of enemies that rolled the same as you. It's almost never going to matter.

Again, my point is that the racial stat bonuses create marginal differences. I play a tiefling when the character that I want to play happens to be a tiefling, not when I want better charisma. The racial bonuses just add a bit of flavor. You're treating them like they're the end of the world.

Originally Posted by Zenith
- Fighting is virtually the main aspect of the game.
That you believe this is evident. I disagree - combat is the most boring aspect of the game.

Originally Posted by Zenith
- We can go about how it should have been implemented according to your ideals of a table top game, but the fact is I'm more interested with how it's actually implemented in a videogame that actually takes resources to build and create cohesion with instead of just imagining things and writing them down to pen and paper.
It's a video game that's ostensibly based on a tabletop game that was designed with substantially more rigor and eye towards balance. This isn't about my ideals, it's about WotC having already done the work and Larian making a hash of it.

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Humans are great.

I like my human Wizard with 9 / 14 / 14 / 16 / 14 / 12. I like to be good at many different things and have saves that don't suck.

It's a role playing game people. And combat is so easy and exploitable you don't need to milk every little bonus ability and min / max anyway.

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