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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Why would I use melee if I find that playstyle boring, regardless of how overpowered it can get? BG1 and 2 were, in terms of classes, not balanced at all. You could have a very easy time spamming wands in BG1, yet not everyone did that. Because other playstyles were viable too, as the game didn't require you to use wands to win. Same case in BG3. I find melee boring, don't use it often in games and so I'm not very good at it, but that is not a game stopper in BG3.

With aoe spells, it's the area that you can cover that matters. A redcap won't make it through a web and spike growth patch in one turn, even when making the saving throws. Consequently, it doesn't matter if every ranged attack or spell that turn hits, because you have spells & items to blast it back to square one the next turn. I have replayed this battle using different terrain spells, and the result was the same.

The only fight were my druid's party needed that high ground was the githyanki patrol, but even here web worked. But I suspect you'll be level 5 when you get there in the full game, which means level 3 spells.

Technically, you can also cheese any melee encounter with the flaming sphere spell, in which case dice rolls won't matter, and there is no risk to your party. But I don't count it as a working strategy, since the spell just exploits enemy ai.

So because there were issues with BG 1/2, Larian should be given a complete pass for diverging from 5E rules, slapping on a bunch of DOS features, and making an unbalanced game?

I don't follow that logic, it's just 'whataboutism'.


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Originally Posted by GreatOdinsBeard
So because there were issues with BG 1/2, Larian should be given a complete pass for diverging from 5E rules, slapping on a bunch of DOS features, and making an unbalanced game?

I don't follow that logic, it's just 'whataboutism'.
I don't consider what I have mentioned about BG1 and BG2 an issue in the first place. I'm fine with how those game handled the classes. I don't care about balance, as long as even those clasess that are considered weaker (which apparently spellcasters are in BG3) can progress in the game.

Last edited by ash elemental; 22/03/21 07:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by GreatOdinsBeard
So because there were issues with BG 1/2, Larian should be given a complete pass for diverging from 5E rules, slapping on a bunch of DOS features, and making an unbalanced game?

I don't follow that logic, it's just 'whataboutism'.
I don't consider what I have mentioned about BG1 and BG2 an issue in the first place. I'm fine with how those game handled the classes. I don't care about balance, as long as even those clasess that are considered weaker (which apparently spellcasters are in BG3) can progress in the game.

Classes considered "weaker" to what exactly?

Really don't follow what point you are trying to make. If you don't care about balance in BG3, why are you trying to bring up imbalance in BG 1/2 as some sort of "but what about" in defense of the imbalance in classes in BG3 that is resulting from game mechanics that are diverging from 5th edition?


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Originally Posted by GreatOdinsBeard
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by GreatOdinsBeard
So because there were issues with BG 1/2, Larian should be given a complete pass for diverging from 5E rules, slapping on a bunch of DOS features, and making an unbalanced game?

I don't follow that logic, it's just 'whataboutism'.
I don't consider what I have mentioned about BG1 and BG2 an issue in the first place. I'm fine with how those game handled the classes. I don't care about balance, as long as even those clasess that are considered weaker (which apparently spellcasters are in BG3) can progress in the game.

Classes considered "weaker" to what exactly?

Really don't follow what point you are trying to make. If you don't care about balance in BG3, why are you trying to bring up imbalance in BG 1/2 as some sort of "but what about" in defense of the imbalance in classes in BG3 that is resulting from game mechanics that are diverging from 5th edition?


It's sort of incredible how people treat 5e as a religious text, as if it couldn't itself be the source of poor balance.

Case in point, the atrocity that is the Concentration mechanic. In what world is being forced into a Bless Bot (say good bye to using channel divinity spells, since they can't be used without cancelling Bless; and if you cancel Bless, have fun missing 1/3 of your spells) or having 95% of your druid spells be mutually exclusive because of concentration-- or that flame blade, a spell requiring one to be in melee range of multiple mobs, require concentration to maintain-- a remotely good and balanced design?

Some of you people are even arguing in favor of limiting rests. It's incredible how set you are on making a garbage videogame just so you can do a 3D rendering of a tabletop game which works with a group of friends and DM but is completely untenable as a single player RPG experience.

Last edited by Zenith; 23/03/21 06:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zenith
It's sort of incredible how people treat 5e as a religious text, as if it couldn't itself be the source of poor balance.

Case in point, the atrocity that is the Concentration mechanic. In what world is being forced into a Bless Bot (say good bye to using channel divinity spells, since they can't be used without cancelling Bless; and if you cancel Bless, have fun missing 1/3 of your spells) or having 95% of your druid spells be mutually exclusive because of concentration-- or that flame blade, a spell requiring one to be in melee range of multiple mobs, require concentration to maintain-- a remotely good and balanced design?

Some of you people are even arguing in favor of limiting rests. It's incredible how set you are on making a garbage videogame just so you can do a 3D rendering of a tabletop game which works with a group of friends and DM but is completely untenable as a single player RPG experience.

There's a pretty massive gulf between Larian looking at the 5th edition rules, finding an imbalance (lol) and changing a class or feature in BG3, and Larian making height advantage the most important aspect of combat for all classes, making scroll-casting universal, and filling the world with exploding barrels of napalm that are more effective than actual class skills.


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Originally Posted by GreatOdinsBeard
Originally Posted by Zenith
It's sort of incredible how people treat 5e as a religious text, as if it couldn't itself be the source of poor balance.

Case in point, the atrocity that is the Concentration mechanic. In what world is being forced into a Bless Bot (say good bye to using channel divinity spells, since they can't be used without cancelling Bless; and if you cancel Bless, have fun missing 1/3 of your spells) or having 95% of your druid spells be mutually exclusive because of concentration-- or that flame blade, a spell requiring one to be in melee range of multiple mobs, require concentration to maintain-- a remotely good and balanced design?

Some of you people are even arguing in favor of limiting rests. It's incredible how set you are on making a garbage videogame just so you can do a 3D rendering of a tabletop game which works with a group of friends and DM but is completely untenable as a single player RPG experience.

There's a pretty massive gulf between Larian looking at the 5th edition rules, finding an imbalance (lol) and changing a class or feature in BG3, and Larian making height advantage the most important aspect of combat for all classes, making scroll-casting universal, and filling the world with exploding barrels of napalm that are more effective than actual class skills.


Not really, because the massive gulf is in 95% of spells being useless out of the gate due to Concentration (you will just find the most "valuable" concentration spells to maintain and ignore all others regardless of circumstances, because spell slots are precious and limited, and using a utility spell for a spell slot that could go to applying damage carries a humongous opportunity cost) and severely weakening the viability and utility of casters compared to melee.

You state height advantage being the most important thing in the game, but this is not even true, because the biggest advantage is not bringing in any casters altogether because casters are terrible compared to martial classes, who have far more base AC, have higher base health, enough movement to make melee restrictions irrelevant, and their ranged weaponry even rivals spell casting without using up a spell slot. Why am I ever encouraged to use casters if their hit chances at ground level are abysmal, spell slot using spells have hit chances for some absurd reason (and this is not a Larianism, it's pure DnD garbage, limited resource using spells should be guaranteed hits or not use up the spell slot if they fail to land).

More importantly, you're discouraged from using casters because the 5e racial imbalance is horrendous, you have 2 useless human casters without darkvision (unless you spec Wyll into the warlock perk for it) completely screwed in accuracy in the Underdark, who are plenty vulnerable to sleep unlike elfs who have OP racials per 5e that give them sleep immunity and charm resistance, and thanks to the awful Concentration mechanic, Dancing Lights cantrip cannot be used to shore up this weakness in racial imbalance to make the human casters serviceable in the Underdark or any dark dungeon settings.

Who needs barrels of napalm risking collateral damage or any convoluted tactics when you can grab your martial class, trivially sneak for a backstab attack that can kill lv5 bosses in 2 action turns, which you get automatically from the surprise mechanic. Martial classes completely dwarf the competition, and you people say it's fine because in 5e casters get better at later levels.

This is abysmal videogame design because you make playing a caster miserable through 1/3 of the game, and then make martial classes feel suboptimal on another 1/3 of the game. Why not make them consistently powerful for an enhjoyable gameplay experience throughout the entire game? Only out of feverish devotion to some tabletop rules as if it were some sacred text and not just a collection of design decisions that deserve just as much criticism and change if necessary.

Last edited by Zenith; 24/03/21 07:41 PM.
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Wow, you should calm down.

Anyway, your evaluation of casters is way off. Cantrip damage increases with level, so they can pump out consistent damage without burning spells. Spell slots allow for damage spikes, crowd control, and utility, all of which is very useful if you know what you are doing. There are cantrips to create illumination so dark vision isn’t that big a deal, and concentration isn’t nearly as prohibitive as you make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Wow, you should calm down.

Anyway, your evaluation of casters is way off. Cantrip damage increases with level, so they can pump out consistent damage without burning spells. Spell slots allow for damage spikes, crowd control, and utility, all of which is very useful if you know what you are doing. There are cantrips to create illumination so dark vision isn’t that big a deal, and concentration isn’t nearly as prohibitive as you make it out to be.


A long-winded platitude. "Cantrips damage increases with level" Great, so Gale's fire cantrip does 11 damage by lv4, much wow, next to Lazael's 17-24 melee swing, or a rogue's sneak attack of 14+9 damage in DW. Won't even mention the frost cantrip hitting for 7-8 damage at lv4 and failing half its saving throws at its secondary debuff. Assuming you land a 75% hit chance spell at ground level.

"Spellslots allow for damage spikes, crowd control, and utility" really, water is wet, thanks for letting us know, so do superiority dice, and said battlemaster specialty moves or the rogue's sneak attack come with far more available and easily restored resources, on top of carrying far better hit rates to boot. But nice of you to keep out Charm's abysmal 50% success rate out of the conversation, or Sleep not working at all altogether during the Githyanki fight because all said enemies are above 24 HP individually, let alone combined, or maybe you're referring to Ray of Flame or Magic Missiles as a spell slot still getting outdamaged by a single melee swing with applied poison or fire dipping, again at worse accuracy rates.

"There are cantrips to create illumination" Yes, that cost concentration, meaning you will be gimped out of Hex, Witchbolt, or any difficult terrain utility, so to not be gimped in dark instances, non-elf spellcasters have to effectively gimp their damage, CC, and utility to be on ground with elf casters. And casting said cantrip already put you one spell behind a darkvision race in terms of output.

"Concentration isn't nearly as prohibitive as you make it out to be" now this isn't just flimsy, it's outright unserious. There is nothing remotely nuanced about a mechanic that says "you can cast this spell, or you can cast this one, using limited resources, but you can't use both, and hope your spell slot isn't wasted by the stray arrow hitting you". Which, by the way, attacks can miss and still break concentration, which is hysterical.

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😂😂😂

Okay dude. Enjoy stewing in friendless resentment.

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Originally Posted by Zenith
"There are cantrips to create illumination" Yes, that cost concentration, meaning you will be gimped out of Hex, Witchbolt, or any difficult terrain utility, so to not be gimped in dark instances, non-elf spellcasters have to effectively gimp their damage, CC, and utility to be on ground with elf casters. And casting said cantrip already put you one spell behind a darkvision race in terms of output.
The Light cantrip doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) require concentration; importantly you can put it on another person and it lasts an hour. Thus it's still a very useful cantrip even if the caster has darkvision.

Although last I played (patch 3), casting Light on someone didn't work properly. Lit companions still saw even adjacent enemies as "Shrouded in Darkness" and thus got disadvantage to hit :\

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Zenith
"There are cantrips to create illumination" Yes, that cost concentration, meaning you will be gimped out of Hex, Witchbolt, or any difficult terrain utility, so to not be gimped in dark instances, non-elf spellcasters have to effectively gimp their damage, CC, and utility to be on ground with elf casters. And casting said cantrip already put you one spell behind a darkvision race in terms of output.
The Light cantrip doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) require concentration; importantly you can put it on another person and it lasts an hour. Thus it's still a very useful cantrip even if the caster has darkvision.

Although last I played (patch 3), casting Light on someone didn't work properly. Lit companions still saw even adjacent enemies as "Shrouded in Darkness" and thus got disadvantage to hit :\


It's unchanged. Still provides no benefit. I just illuminate enemies with Moonbeam or Flame Sphere, especially now that you can buy Flame Sphere scroll and have Gale learn it (probably unintended, but whatever).

Originally Posted by Warlocke
😂😂😂

Okay dude. Enjoy stewing in friendless resentment.


I know you're really trying, it's quite cringe, but nobody cares about your bratty retorts. Have a medal, I'm sure you have lots of friends and are very popular, totally jealous of the social network a stranger insulting me on an anonymous forum has. Still not an argument, so I'll pass on this pointless exchange with you.

Last edited by Zenith; 24/03/21 10:45 PM.
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Don’t play casters. They’re annoying. Use the magic hybrids like arcane trickster or eldrich knight. You get just the combos that you need without worrying about versatility. When you pick a character for a fighting game who wears zero armor, you really have to think about what justifies that obvious disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by GristlyKnuckle
Don’t play casters. They’re annoying. Use the magic hybrids like arcane trickster or eldrich knight. You get just the combos that you need without worrying about versatility. When you pick a character for a fighting game who wears zero armor, you really have to think about what justifies that obvious disadvantage.

That only works right now while the 18 int circlet holds, though. Once that effectiveness fades and your attack rolls start to decline, these hybrid classes will start suffering.

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Originally Posted by Zenith
Originally Posted by GristlyKnuckle
Don’t play casters. They’re annoying. Use the magic hybrids like arcane trickster or eldrich knight. You get just the combos that you need without worrying about versatility. When you pick a character for a fighting game who wears zero armor, you really have to think about what justifies that obvious disadvantage.

That only works right now while the 18 int circlet holds, though. Once that effectiveness fades and your attack rolls start to decline, these hybrid classes will start suffering.
I'm not sure if the 18 int circlet's effectiveness will fade for hybrid classes.
Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters get 4 ASIs by level 12. Assuming they spend 1 of them on a feat, that leaves 3 actual ASIs.
A fighter would probably use 2 of those ASIs increasing STR to 20 and a rogue would do the same for DEX. This leaves 1 ASI for something else, which is not enough to improve Intelligence to 20.
The best bet is probably to keep the Arcane Circlet and use that 4th ASI for a feat or increasing Con or Wis.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Zenith
Originally Posted by GristlyKnuckle
Don’t play casters. They’re annoying. Use the magic hybrids like arcane trickster or eldrich knight. You get just the combos that you need without worrying about versatility. When you pick a character for a fighting game who wears zero armor, you really have to think about what justifies that obvious disadvantage.

That only works right now while the 18 int circlet holds, though. Once that effectiveness fades and your attack rolls start to decline, these hybrid classes will start suffering.
I'm not sure if the 18 int circlet's effectiveness will fade for hybrid classes.
Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters get 4 ASIs by level 12. Assuming they spend 1 of them on a feat, that leaves 3 actual ASIs.
A fighter would probably use 2 of those ASIs increasing STR to 20 and a rogue would do the same for DEX. This leaves 1 ASI for something else, which is not enough to improve Intelligence to 20.
The best bet is probably to keep the Arcane Circlet and use that 4th ASI for a feat or increasing Con or Wis.


Didn't they say they would cap us to lv10, though?

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Originally Posted by Zenith
Didn't they say they would cap us to lv10, though?
That only strengthens my point, as each hybrid class will only get 3 total ASIs = not enough to realistically increase Int to 20 without unduly sacrificing Str/Dex.

Larian originally said the cap was level 10, but have since said it will probably be higher. Unclear what they mean by that; 12 is my guess.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Okay dude. Enjoy stewing in friendless resentment.

Originally Posted by Zenith
I know you're really trying, it's quite cringe, but nobody cares about your bratty retorts. Have a medal, I'm sure you have lots of friends and are very popular, totally jealous of the social network a stranger insulting me on an anonymous forum has. Still not an argument, so I'll pass on this pointless exchange with you.

Both of you knock it off, now.

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Agree that casters are generally underpowered relative to fighters, at least in this portion of this iteration of the game, although a level 4 Warlock with Agonizing and Repelling Blast, halfway decent CON and DEX and the Moderately Armored feat for an AC of 18/19 can hold his/her own. In my play-throughs, Wyll often ends up with, if not the majority of kills, at least his fair share. The change to two short rests instead of one, meaning you can replenish your spell slots twice a day, was also a significant upgrade for the class.

I now generally take Gale for the extra challenge, because he's basically trash, Magic Missile + MM amulet notwithstanding. "Can I make it to the skiff?" has now become "Can I complete all combats without ressing, helping or hiding Gale?".

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- Station your party at the top of the hill, near the teahouse.
- Place an explosive barrel or two along the path down the hill, for insurance, in case you miss a lot
- Drop a torch or candle at the top of the hill for dipping
- Send a ranged attacker down, wait until the nearest Sheep/Redcap is isolated; shoot it, run back
- Pick them off as they wade through the mud and make their way up the hill, maybe flinging the odd Grease bottle or acid vial to slow them down further.

No need to take a single point of damage. You can also sneak around and take out the sage quickly with a backstab & surprise melee attack, as it's his spells that make the others so dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Zenith
More importantly, you're discouraged from using casters because the 5e racial imbalance is horrendous

This is so true. Wyll and Gale being standard humans really cripples them, especially given Larian's encounter design. However, I think your analysis of the problems with casters is really just an analysis of the problems with Wyll and Gale. For example, maintaining concentration on a Wood Elf Light Domain Cleric is not difficult. A Shield Dwarf Wizard has high armor class, darkvision, and good constitution for HP and concentration saves. And their are some invaluable spells in the game. Sleep, Hold Person, Pass Without Trace, etc, that make casters extremely valuable. Its not a serious problem for Sleep that you have to do damage to get them below a certain HP threshold before it will work. It still guarantees crits, removes an enemy turn, and has no saving throw. Its an insane control spell. Healing Word is another great example.

Last edited by Aestus_RPG; 26/03/21 12:01 AM.
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