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Hello,
I always have a hard time to understand, in some post, when people use the term "cheese". So if someone can be so kind to spoon feed me on the definition of that term or validate the following, please:

google search:
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/21867/origins-of-the-gaming-term-cheese-strategy
"In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time. The term is widely used both in video games and tabletop games alike."
- Starlights add-up : finding a hack or a breach from which you can abuse and make easy and repeatable wins.

If there is a consensus on the above definition, then;
We can stop using that word, for the context of an early access game. The goal of an EA is to provide a taste & feel about a foundational framework that will get better define as the development progress.

Am I on the right track here ?


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I fail to see how Larian's homebrew rules on top of DOS surfance and barrelmancy doesn't qualify as "cheese".

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We use the term as the game has provided strategies that trivialize what should be otherwise difficult and engaging encounters. Many of the mechanics right now are incomplete or not appropriate for the BG IP when they were for the DoS property.

And so many of the strategies that use Larian Rules instead of DnD rules are "Cheese" right now, it is our acknowledgement that these mechanics are EA and need fixing.

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Yes, I think that definition of cheese is correct. I have always interpreted the use of "cheese" in a game context to be a reference to a technique, skill, or item which is over-powered to the point where it removes the challenge from playing the game.

Of course there are many flavors of game cheese. "Holy cheese" is when divine intervention is used to keep a stumbling story plot moving along. "Stale cheese" is when a series of encounters are all resolved in the same basic way. "Moldy cheese" is when you have way too many potent magic items gathering moss in your inventory, to the point where you have forgotten they are even there. "Cheese Wiz" is when you encounter a wizard/etc. who has hit points and powers far beyond that of a player character wizard/etc. of the same level. There are probably some others I can't think of at the moment.

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I'm not sure what your point is. We don't exactly know what will be kept the same and what Larian will change in the future. Personally I don't like cheese because I like to be immersed in the game and cheese is usually something silly / goofy that makes it hard for me to take the game seriously.

One example of a cheese is that you can kill anything with barrels, there is a solution to this - make enemies notice barrels, move away from them, throw them away or warn the player to get those barrels out of their face or they will attack. This is feedback. Is it a given that Larian will change / add such a mechanic? No, actually most likely nothing will change in this regard and you will be able to beat any encounter with barrels. Same for hidding cheese, it can be solved by making enemies properly scout the sorrounding area looking for the player. Once again, it is not a given that Larian will add such a mechanic.

Last edited by Kadajko; 18/03/21 01:58 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
I'm not sure what your point is. We don't exactly know what will be kept the same and what Larian will change in the future. Personally I don't like cheese because I like to be immersed in the game and cheese is usually something silly / goofy that makes it hard for me to take the game seriously.

One example of a cheese is that you can kill anything with barrels, there is a solution to this - make enemies notice barrels, move away from them, throw them away or warn the player to get those barrels out of their face or they will attack. This is feedback. Is it a given that Larian will change / add such a mechanic? No, actually most likely nothing will change in this regard and you will be able to beat any encounter with barrels. Same for hidding cheese, it can be solved by making enemies properly scout the sorrounding area looking for the player. Once again, it is not a given that Larian will add such a mechanic.

Given the level of modification Larian has put into moving their interpretation of 5th edition towards "cheese" tactics, and including DOS surface/barrelmancy, etc, I wouldn't expect any significant changes to what they've made the core tenants of the combat which are the use of height for advantage, and the environment.

It's about as far from what DnD combat actually is, but it's what Larian seems to have settled on as their vision for BG3.

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
I'm not sure what your point is. We don't exactly know what will be kept the same and what Larian will change in the future. Personally I don't like cheese because I like to be immersed in the game and cheese is usually something silly / goofy that makes it hard for me to take the game seriously.

One example of a cheese is that you can kill anything with barrels, there is a solution to this - make enemies notice barrels, move away from them, throw them away or warn the player to get those barrels out of their face or they will attack. This is feedback. Is it a given that Larian will change / add such a mechanic? No, actually most likely nothing will change in this regard and you will be able to beat any encounter with barrels. Same for hidding cheese, it can be solved by making enemies properly scout the sorrounding area looking for the player. Once again, it is not a given that Larian will add such a mechanic.

Hey there @Kadajko,
My point is, there are lots of complaint about how easy to "cheese the game", but that's an early access game and I think the players & dev are leaning and check & adjust. As you pointing out, the state of the game is not definitive. If the game was finished then it would be different - the complaint would be "valid".

Also, as per the definition, "cheesing the game" doesn't come automatic. you got to find those breach/hack. Ex.: you have to know & find out that you can use barrels to win any battles - you can actually gather & carry those barils and then use them for an up coming battle.
Your example to counter the use of barrel is a good one. You could also make those barrel heavier - the player might not be able to carry too many of them. There might be other options.

Last edited by Starlights; 18/03/21 02:29 AM.

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I would say that a good reason to express concern over these things is that the barrel cheese is for example almost identical to how it works in Original sin, and no adjustment were ever made about that. My point is basically that it is not a given that larian will do anything about these mechanics and when the game comes out it will be too late,makes sense talking about it now if we want to see change. And hey.)

Last edited by Kadajko; 18/03/21 02:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
I would say that a good reason to express concern over these things is that the barrel cheese is for example almost identical to how it works in Original sin, and no adjustment were ever made about that. My point is basically that it is not a given that larian will do anything about these mechanics and when the game comes out it will be too late,makes sense talking about it now if we want to see change. And hey.)

If I'm honest, with what I've played in 97 hours, if Larian releases the game with the current combat focus being relatively the same as it is now, I'll most likely not play the game at all after release unless someone comes along and mods the DOS and game-breaking homebrew rules out.

The story is not compelling enough to slog through combat that just devolves into get high, spam surface, hide and push with countless class skills and spells just being relatively useless in the grand scheme of the game.

Last edited by Grudgebearer; 18/03/21 02:47 AM.
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Ah yes, "Cracker Barrel Cheese" keeps coming up. According to Sir Boverton Redwood, the interior of old oil barrels was coated with hot glue, glass, or glycerin to prevent leaks. The barrels were otherwise mainly comprised of white oak staves and iron hoops. Wood is a great heat insulator, so I would think it nearly impossible to ignite a barrel by throwing a fire cracker at it ... unless you are lucky enough to punch the bung.

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Two games stick out to me when I think of cheese and difficulty

I've watched someone who is VERY good at XCOM go through missions without getting touched. It never feels like cheese, but rather looks like they're actually commanding a group of elite soldiers.

With BG3, watching someone who is very good often ends with me thinking "are you serious, that actually worked"? or just laughing at how ridiculous it is. It's closer to watching a TAS speedrun (tool-assisted-speedrun if you don't know the term). It looks fake and silly.

I wish BG3 had more of an XCOM feel to encounters instead of the feeling that someone is exploiting the game. Just my opinion though.

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Originally Posted by Starlights
"In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time. The term is widely used both in video games and tabletop games alike."
high ground, backstab, excessive spell scrolls, shove, barrelmancy etc. are all cheese to me. They have too much reward for how little skill they require. This would be for the game now, and if they are still there in release it well be cheese then.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by Starlights
"In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time. The term is widely used both in video games and tabletop games alike."
high ground, backstab, excessive spell scrolls, shove, barrelmancy etc. are all cheese to me. They have too much reward for how little skill they require. This would be for the game now, and if they are still there in release it well be cheese then.

Highground needs to be toned back.
Backstab should only give it with flanking OR stealth.
I think spell scrolls should be toned back in the loot a bit BUT made something expensive you can find at appropriate merchants. A reward for Wizards to inscribe or item to carefully use for anyone else.
Shove is.. fine I guess, just tone back.
Barrels should either be toned back OR be made so much less common, so you still get rewarded for keeping one intact and using it later BUT you don't have the ability to use them for even a half or quarter of the fights.

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Definitely, adding a premium on the mechanics would improve the game.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by Starlights
"In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time. The term is widely used both in video games and tabletop games alike."
high ground, backstab, excessive spell scrolls, shove, barrelmancy etc. are all cheese to me. They have too much reward for how little skill they require. This would be for the game now, and if they are still there in release it well be cheese then.

Highground needs to be toned back.
Backstab should only give it with flanking OR stealth.
I think spell scrolls should be toned back in the loot a bit BUT made something expensive you can find at appropriate merchants. A reward for Wizards to inscribe or item to carefully use for anyone else.
Shove is.. fine I guess, just tone back.
Barrels should either be toned back OR be made so much less common, so you still get rewarded for keeping one intact and using it later BUT you don't have the ability to use them for even a half or quarter of the fights.

+2 ranged attack cover AC needs to be implemented for melee combat, and high ground should be changed to negate the +2 cover AC
Agree on backstab
Scrolls should only be able to be used by those with the spells in their class list.
Shove needs to be moved from a bonus action to a standard action, and only knock the character 5 feet or prone.
Barrels should be removed entirely unless they are filled with actual black powder, and shot with a fire arrow
The zhentarim hideout is a joke with it's strategically placed barrels of leaking gasoline surrounded by torches.

Jump/disengage, needs to be replaced with a standard disengage action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

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The gameplay as is? Yes, it's cheese tactics.

It can (as of pre druid patch) be fixed with mods.

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@OP: Thank you, those are very good definitions of cheese.
And I do believe that many things in this game fall under this definition of cheese, especially most rule changes of Larian (compared to DnD) allow OP actions that can be done by anyone without any skill.

Problems and possible solutions:
- problem 1: barrels
solution 1a: barrels are so heavy that even the strogest char can only carry one of them.
solution 1b: barrels do not fit in the inventory, you have to carry them slowly one by one. This would introduce grapple mechanic.
solution 1c: enemies react to this. They walk away from them or they throw them at the player when they see it. You could still use them, but you have to throw them at the enemy as an action or you have have to place them in a way that the enemy does not see them.

- problem 2: hight advantage
solution: hight gives +2 bonus but not advantage, add cover mechanic

- problem 3: backstab
solution: When enemies can see party members they will always face the party member that is closest to them. To gain advantage, you have to flank the enemy or the enemy must not see you (stealth or invisible)

- problem 3: jumping
solution: separate jump and disengage, jumping while standing next to an enemy provokes AoO, it does not avoid them.

- problem 4: too many surfaces
solution 4a: Single target actions should never cause surface effects, such as fire arrows.
Solution 4b: Attacks that miss the target should never create surface attacks under the target.
solution 4C: You have to target a surface OR a target. When an enemy stands close to an oil surface you can shoot at the enemy with a fire arrow to deal additional 1d4 damage or you can shoot at the oil to ignite it. Hitting the enemy does not ignite the oil.
solution 4d: Enemies should not bleed poison or fire unless it is stated in their description.

DnD has many surface effects that are useful (grease, web, spike groth, entangle and others), no need to add more of them just because somebody thinks its cool when the whole screen is on fire.

- problem 5: stealth abuse
solution: When enemies are hit by an unseen attacker they look and move in the direction where the shot came from. You should know if something hits you in the front or in the back. Enemies could cast a cloud or darkness spell to prevent shooting at them. You could use this as advantage (you shoot from stealth from the left. enemies look left. Another party member can do something on the right without being seen.)

- Shove can stay as it is, but it should be an action, not a bonus action. Under the right conditions (like you shove somebody off a cliff) it can be more deadly than an attack.

edit:
- Scrolls can only be used if the spell belongs to the list of class spells of the user. Mages can only learn mage spells from scrolls.

Last edited by Madscientist; 18/03/21 10:43 AM.

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'cheese', 'exploits', 'gaming the system' for me are largely all interchangeable and others in this thread have done a good job in highlighting why such tactics can trivialize the 5e or dnd side of the current ea bg3 build.

now if you want to see examples of some of these things in action, go check out swen's playthru from the most recent panel of hell as thats pretty much all it was lol. watching larian's founder 'cheese' his own game quickly made me adjust my expectations for the final launch, altho i did learn from watching that you can chuck hp potions at allies to heal them wink

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Originally Posted by nation
... altho i did learn from watching that you can chuck hp potions at allies to heal them wink


What?! Well this is a first, "Anti-cheese". I guess Larian is indeed the Cheese Meister.

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Originally Posted by nation
'cheese', 'exploits', 'gaming the system' for me are largely all interchangeable and others in this thread have done a good job in highlighting why such tactics can trivialize the 5e or dnd side of the current ea bg3 build.

now if you want to see examples of some of these things in action, go check out swen's playthru from the most recent panel of hell as thats pretty much all it was lol. watching larian's founder 'cheese' his own game quickly made me adjust my expectations for the final launch, altho i did learn from watching that you can chuck hp potions at allies to heal them wink

Are you trying to say that "when in combat, the player shouldn't be able to exchange gears/items with other party member/companion" ? As if the inventory can get locked when in combat ..

If yes, then I agree to your potential solution.

Last edited by Starlights; 18/03/21 01:02 PM.

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