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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
It probably shouldn't happen while you're in transit, but it could totally come up during a short rest.
I dont quite see how ...

Either you would need to return to camp for every short rest ... wich sounds both ridiculous and anoying.
Or you would risk stucking gale, or his mirror image in other obejcts ...
Also if you see it from purely RP perspective, it also does not make sence ... just imagine, you just finished fighting the goblins, decide to rest ... and sudently Gale instead of resting decide to spend his spellslot to summon his own mirror image so he can admire himself? laugh

You wouldn't need to return to camp, you could do it on the spot sitting on a log, around a table or in a room you just cleared from enemies (there are a lot of suitable places around) and you would get the chance to speak to companions. Of course it wouldn't work for the mirror image scene, because that scene only makes sense at the end of the day imho, but Wyll could comment on seeing Tav fight at the grove gate, SH's magic (or whatever that is) could act up or she could play with the githyanki artifact. There's nothing about these scenes that ties them to the end of the day, the first two could happen any time along the road, the third could require just a short rest imo.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
It probably shouldn't happen while you're in transit, but it could totally come up during a short rest.
I dont quite see how ...

Either you would need to return to camp for every short rest ... wich sounds both ridiculous and anoying.
Or you would risk stucking gale, or his mirror image in other obejcts ...
Gale already has a dialogue cutscene that can happen anywhere outside of camp, namely the 'resurrect me' one. If the risk of "stucking gale" didn't stop Larian from implementing that, it shouldn't be a problem for other scenes.

I have been spamming long rest on every playthrough (except the first one, where I missed out on most content) and camp dialogues bug out anyway. In fact, my impression is it has gotten worse in patch 4.

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Originally Posted by Kajsentlyha
Originally Posted by GM4Him
To me, a natural first Long Rest should be after the Dank Crypt.

That's exactly where I do my first long rest and get the go to hell scene. The problem is the mirror image scene can easily be missed if you:

- speak to Zorru > triggers Astarion cutscene
- speak to Sazza > triggers Shadowheart cutscene
- trigger Gale's reveal in some way (I still have no clue what triggers it, I miss it most of the time so I could be wrong about this one)
- speak to Nettie > triggers Raphael's cutscene
- find the dead boar/find Edowin (not sure exactly what's the trigger, but when I go beyond the underground passage I usually miss the mirror image scene, so I rest before I go there...)

Most players will probably trigger the first three or four cutscenes on the same day (and very likely also the fourth), which means that they will never see the first two (possibly three).
End of day cutscenes should be queued, they shouldn't override one another. I also don't see why Astarion's and Shadowheart's cutscenes can't be available at the same time once you trigger them. Why should one override the other? There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to speak to both on the same night. And if some cutscenes do need to take precedence (e.g. tadpole sickness cutscene) the others should just be postponed to the next long rest. But since, as things stand, even the queue could get too long, it would be best to have some of these cutscenes happen along the way, preferably during short rests.

And THAT is exactly my point. THANK YOU.

Aside from this, it is annoying when players say they are tired just to let you know you have a dialogue ready. It's too much. I think one time I had someone say this, I rested, walked five minutes, and someone else said it. I had to End Day twice in 5 minutes just because they wanted to talk.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Consequentially, I don't have a ton of examples, because I don't get to see them. One, off the top of my head is Gale's looking at his own mirror image thing. There's no reason that this needs to happen at night.
Next time i shall answer for this argument, i start quoting myself ...
But lets repeat. laugh

There is reason for this to happens at night, during day your characters are solving most pressing matters, at evening (or night if you wish) they have free time, therefore there is enought space for reading, thinking, playing with githyanki toys, and talking.
Its just that word people uses so often around here to justify their own opinions ... its imersion. laugh
Maybe try less condescension.

A group of people spending the entire day together are going to talk and have interactions all day long. It's weird that these discussions would happen exclusively (or even primarily) at night.

When I go to work, I don't just put my head down and do 8 hours of work without talking to anyone. I'm frequently talking to the people around me about what I'm doing or what they're doing or what we're doing together. Everyone that I've ever worked with does this. We're social animals - not machines. Your suggestion that people should just have all of their conversations at night detracts from immersion - it's not how people behave.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
It probably shouldn't happen while you're in transit, but it could totally come up during a short rest.
I dont quite see how ...

Either you would need to return to camp for every short rest ... wich sounds both ridiculous and anoying.
Or you would risk stucking gale, or his mirror image in other obejcts ...
Also if you see it from purely RP perspective, it also does not make sence ... just imagine, you just finished fighting the goblins, decide to rest ... and sudently Gale instead of resting decide to spend his spellslot to summon his own mirror image so he can admire himself? laugh
If you can't see how, that seems like your problem. Of course they don't need to return to camp every time they short rest. Of course Larian can figure out how to have Gale and his mirror image not collide with objects. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

From a spell slot perspective, I am perfectly willing to assume that he's using Minor Illusion or is using magic in a way that isn't perfectly encapsulated in an existing cantrip. He's playing with a simple illusion, not disintegrating someone.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
I assume there are other scenes like this. Why make them all only come up only during long rests, where they are competing for space and so you end up losing out on story moments?
Dunno, maybe ... possibly ... probably ...
But that could be also resolved by simply allowing players to have multiple conversations in row instead of only the last one. O_o
I'm fine with that, too, if they can make the transitions between them convincing. I still think they should happen at various times throughout the day.

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No matter what way I slice it, important or fun dialogue needs to be removed from End Day. If I choose to not End Day until I reach Nettie, I miss all the dialogue beforehand. I have done both resting a lot and resting a little, and again, unless you rest and obscene amount, you miss it all.

Some scenes might be needed for night and at camp, like Astarion trying to bite you. In those cases where it absolutely must be at night at camp, I say then they all should trigger eventually in some sort of que and order. Only those absolutely needed at End Day Camp would fall in this category. Otherwise, yeah. Short rests or Fast Travel to camp should also let me trigger them. They could even show us talking at camp if I short rest and a dialogue triggered, like we fast traveled there and talked. Whatever. They just need to make most dialogues not End Day.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
When I go to work, I don't just put my head down and do 8 hours of work without talking to anyone. I'm frequently talking to the people around me about what I'm doing or what they're doing or what we're doing together. Everyone that I've ever worked with does this.
Do you often work to remove a magical parasite of extraterrestrial origin from your brain?
If not, then I would venture to assume that you are put a little less pressure on you than on our heroes. wink

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Your suggestion that people should just have all of their conversations at night
And that is funny ...
Since i never sugested that. laugh

What im actualy sugesting, is keep things as they are now:
In field, we are focused on curent matters.
In camp, where we have time, we can talk about other things.

Originally Posted by grysqrl
From a spell slot perspective, I am perfectly willing to assume that he's using Minor Illusion or is using magic in a way that isn't perfectly encapsulated in an existing cantrip. He's playing with a simple illusion, not disintegrating someone.
Cantrip that he unlearn once the conversation is done?
Yeah, why not ...

Originally Posted by grysqrl
I'm fine with that, too, if they can make the transitions between them convincing. I still think they should happen at various times throughout the day.
I dunno ...
I was thinking about allowing to talk with companions any time you visit the camp ... it still feels off to return to camp to "just talk" ... but to be honest, whole returning to camp at any time except for sleeping is quite odd and seem completely iracional ...
So, i presume it would be acceptable. :-/


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One of my current playthroughs, I still have not had to long rest, and I'm pretty much all the way through the Druid's Grove, including the goblins in the tunnel. Haven't faced the Harpies, but I'm still going strong. I've even still got one more short rest to use and a bunch of healing items.

So case in point. I don't need to Long Rest. Therefore, I will not get a lot of dialogue cutscenes because I'm not Long Resting because I don't need to Long Rest. I'm still on Day 1.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
One of my current playthroughs, I still have not had to long rest, and I'm pretty much all the way through the Druid's Grove, including the goblins in the tunnel. Haven't faced the Harpies, but I'm still going strong. I've even still got one more short rest to use and a bunch of healing items.

So case in point. I don't need to Long Rest. Therefore, I will not get a lot of dialogue cutscenes because I'm not Long Resting because I don't need to Long Rest. I'm still on Day 1.

They should force you to rest.
Your characters are probably exhausted.

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Why would they be? According to Dialogue log, I've only experienced a few hours of Day 1, I have good HP, and I still have spell slots. Gale hasn't even used Arcane Recovery yet.

Again. Story-wise, I am told many times up to this point that at any moment I might start to see tadpole symptoms that will turn me into a Mind Flayed. Not one dialogue yet has said otherwise. So I'm playing based on the idea that every moment counts because that's what the game has told me.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why would they be? According to Dialogue log, I've only experienced a few hours of Day 1, I have good HP, and I still have spell slots. Gale hasn't even used Arcane Recovery yet.

Again. Story-wise, I am told many times up to this point that at any moment I might start to see tadpole symptoms that will turn me into a Mind Flayed. Not one dialogue yet has said otherwise. So I'm playing based on the idea that every moment counts because that's what the game has told me.
It's reasonable that the characters are absolutely exhausted at this point in the first day. You also have to consider that they were in mindflayer pods for an indeterminate period, injected with a tadpole (probably not an energy conserving process), and then had to frantically escape the ship. Plus, because there is no time in this game, it's equally likely that it's noon or midnight. We were kidnapped from the city during the daytime, so it's not unreasonable to suggest it's getting to be afternoon/evening around this time.

I'm in favor of Larian ~forcing a rest this first day to ensure that players get that first night's cutscene. My suggestion is to, after encountering Lae'zel, give all characters a level or two of exhaustion and some dialogue saying that "it's been a long day and we need to rest." The player can continue, but maybe will get additional levels of exhaustion every ~10-20 minutes.

Alternatively/in addition, one of the characters could notice a hoard of too-strong-to-face goblins approaching requiring the party to search for a place to hide (the campsite) where they have no option but to rest and wait the goblins out. The game could give you an option to actually fight them off, but I'd want them to be actually too strong to face. Like 20+ goblins plus a few ogres. And hey, with the new Flee mechanic, you could even choose to face the goblins, see that they're too powerful, and then flee to camp upon which the first camp cutscene would play.

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Although I don't 100% disagree, I mostly disagree. I mean, you are right. It is reasonable to force a rest. I agree that the characters have been through a lot and there is no mention of just how long they have been awake prior to the events of Day 1.

Still, I'm not sure I'd be able to rest well knowing I have that thing in my brain. I also don't think I'd rest well especially if I triggered the scene where I watched the person in the pod getting changed into a Mind Flayer right before my eyes. I'd probably push myself harder in an attempt to find a healer. I'd have desperation driving me hard especially if after short resting twice I still have good HP and spell slots. Again, it's only been maybe 2 hours of gameplay at most even according to the Dialogue Log, so it's not hard to believe that I could still be pushing myself a bit further before needing to Long Rest.

And, again, when I was a brand new player, the first time I played this game I did this exact same thing. I thought, "Oh HECK no! Did you see that nasty thing they put in my brain? I'm getting this thing out as soon as possible. I'm afraid if I rest too much I'm going to turn into a Mind Flayer." And then, after Gale described it in great detail, and Lae'zel too!...I was like, "Oh HEEEEEEEECK no! This game's clearly going to turn me into a Mind Flayer if I Long Rest too much." Back then, I had no idea I could Long Rest however many times I wanted without repercussions.

So I'm thinking about the First-Time Player here as well as myself. It is natural for a First-Time Player to think that they shouldn't rest much or they are going to turn into a Mind Flayer. At least, I'd think it would be. Maybe it's just me.

Regardless of whether I'm in the minority on this or the majority, shouldn't they design it to meet the needs of the minority too? What does it hurt those who Long Rest often if they que up dialogues so that whenever you Long Rest you experience them in some sort of order. Each long rest triggers 1 or more dialogues, depending on how many you have qued up prior to Long Resting? You still get your dialogues if you Long Rest a bunch of times prior to the Druid's Grove, and you still get your dialogues if you push yourself to Long Rest after you've gotten through the Druid's Grove or even longer if you can push yourself longer?

So I still don't get why people resist the idea of untying the dialogue from Long Resting so that you don't have to Long Rest a ton of times prior to when you really NEED to Long Rest. What's the point of Short Rests at all if you FORCE people to Long Rest all the time. The entire idea of Long Rest and Short Rests and Healing Items is for players to strategically manage their resources. If you allow people to abuse the Long Rest, and even FORCE them to abuse the Long Rest, then you don't really need all those healing items and potions and Short Rests are really not necessary anymore. All of it is meaningless and just useless unless you limit and discourage Long Rests. Right now, though, Long Rests are heavily encouraged, and you want to force them to Long Rest as well.

Yeah. No. I think that would make things worse.

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What you're trying to say through those threads is that there is a big problem in the story.

You're right and I guess most players would agree even if it's more or less important for each of us.

Yes, this sense of urgency is just a fake. Yes, the story telling is not really good partly because of this.
They should probably find something between the "find a healer or you'll die in 7 days" and "nothing happen even if you rest 45 days" because at the moment that's exactly what the story is.

On the other hand, as I said in the other thread everything looks like work in progress.
The resting system is not good, there are lots of issues in the story/the quests, the dialogues with companions have bugs,...

I'm not a big fan of dialogues only at camp but on the other hand... Why not ? If going to camp make sense for a few reasons it's not really an issue. We have to deal with it because that's their vision. Your suggestions looks like a complete other system instead of an improvement.

If they tone down a bit the fake urgency, resting is not a problem anymore and your "good roleplaying" definition wouldn't make sense anymore.
It looks like a more reasonable suggestion to me.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
When I go to work, I don't just put my head down and do 8 hours of work without talking to anyone. I'm frequently talking to the people around me about what I'm doing or what they're doing or what we're doing together. Everyone that I've ever worked with does this.
Do you often work to remove a magical parasite of extraterrestrial origin from your brain?
If not, then I would venture to assume that you are put a little less pressure on you than on our heroes. wink
You are creating a false dichotomy and your assumption is irrelevant. People under pressure are still people. Being under pressure doesn't mean that you stop talking to the people around you. Our characters aren't in fight or flight mode non-stop for 16 hours a day before they spend 5 minutes chatting with exactly one of their companions and then drift off to a peaceful sleep.

Also, the implication that because I haven't been in the exact same situation as the characters means that I can't understand what they're going through is ludicrous. The entire purpose of stories is that you can empathize with other people without having to suffer the consequences that they are experiencing.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
What im actualy sugesting, is keep things as they are now:
In field, we are focused on curent matters.
In camp, where we have time, we can talk about other things.
No we aren't. Our companions find time to chat with each other about idle matters as we wander around - why is it that the PC is excluded from this?

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
From a spell slot perspective, I am perfectly willing to assume that he's using Minor Illusion or is using magic in a way that isn't perfectly encapsulated in an existing cantrip. He's playing with a simple illusion, not disintegrating someone.
Cantrip that he unlearn once the conversation is done?
Yeah, why not ...
Casters can do all sorts of things in the story that aren't exactly spells. The weave cutscene you have with Gale definitely isn't a spell from your spellbook. The "mirror image" thing that Gale does isn't the actual Mirror Image spell - that doesn't create sound. It feels reasonable for characters to be able to do trivial things like this to suit the story, even if we, as players, don't have access to that particular ability in the game.

Lae'zel can probably do a cartwheel. I bet she's great at it. If she did one in a cutscene, it wouldn't surprise me at all. (I assume she would kill something as part of that cartwheel, but that's more about her personality than her ability.) I have no problem with the fact that I, as a player, can't make her do it whenever I want.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
I'm fine with that, too, if they can make the transitions between them convincing. I still think they should happen at various times throughout the day.
I dunno ...
I was thinking about allowing to talk with companions any time you visit the camp ... it still feels off to return to camp to "just talk" ... but to be honest, whole returning to camp at any time except for sleeping is quite odd and seem completely iracional ...
So, i presume it would be acceptable. :-/
I don't think you should return to camp to talk. Frankly, I don't think there should be a camp to return to at all, even for sleeping - you should really just be camping wherever you are. But that topic is already well-tread in other threads; I don't feel a huge need to delve into it here.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
We were kidnapped from the city during the daytime, so it's not unreasonable to suggest it's getting to be afternoon/evening around this time.
Im sorry, but i believe we actualy dont know when we were kidnapped, nor how long were we on the ship ...
The city we have seen in cinematic is Yartar, but our character is Baldurian (or Underdark resient, or something entirely else for Gith, if im corect).

I mean, its certainly possible that we just "were in Yartar" when attack happened ...
Since there is really low chance that our Drow or Gith character was there, i presume Larian will give us all the same origin, and we were kidnapped and kept it that pod some time before cinematic happened. smile

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Being under pressure doesn't mean that you stop talking to the people around you.
Never claimed that ... you must missunderstand me.
I believe that when you are under pressure, on top of life threatening pressure, you are focusing on your current problem.

You dont admire yourself in the mirror (image), you dont phylosophy about things that used to be abstract, you dont speak about your previous life ... you are talking about that you just saw parasite crawling from someone skull, you do admire with few sentences that someone just saved someones life, etc. etc.

In short ...
There is time and place for everything, and so far i believe that Larian did good job with this.
It would be better if you can re-experience dialogues you just missed, no argue about that, and i believe there is zero reason oposing the option to simply move them to "next long rest" if they are owerwritten by something more important. smile

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Our characters aren't in fight or flight mode non-stop for 16 hours a day before they spend 5 minutes chatting with exactly one of their companions and then drift off to a peaceful sleep.
True ...

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Also, the implication that because I haven't been in the exact same situation as the characters means that I can't understand what they're going through is ludicrous. The entire purpose of stories is that you can empathize with other people without having to suffer the consequences that they are experiencing.
Well i never said you cant ...
All i said that your comentary makes me believe that you simply dont right now. :-/

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Our companions find time to chat with each other about idle matters as we wander around - why is it that the PC is excluded from this?
That is actualy brilliant point!

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Casters can do all sorts of things in the story that aren't exactly spells. The weave cutscene you have with Gale definitely isn't a spell from your spellbook. The "mirror image" thing that Gale does isn't the actual Mirror Image spell - that doesn't create sound. It feels reasonable for characters to be able to do trivial things like this to suit the story, even if we, as players, don't have access to that particular ability in the game.
Yeah, i might sound a little sceptic, but i was actualy agreeing with you.
My misstake. smile

Originally Posted by grysqrl
I don't think you should return to camp to talk. Frankly, I don't think there should be a camp to return to at all, even for sleeping - you should really just be camping wherever you are. But that topic is already well-tread in other threads; I don't feel a huge need to delve into it here.
Well i agree it would be nice ...
But also a lot of work, so far it seem like this game is kinda too big bite for Larian allready, i would not expect this.
Also im kinda fine with the camp, even if i believe it could be done better.
(I would give there Waystone, and add some resource you need to gather or buy to use them to limit long rests.)


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Hi Ragnarock. I'm curious. Is English your primary language? I'm not trying to be mean in asking this. I am legitimately wondering because I think we misunderstand each other a lot. It seems others have misunderstandings with you to. I get the impression that a lot of the time when I make a suggestion, you aren't fully understanding what I'm suggesting.

I hope you aren't offended by this question. It just seems to happen a lot between us, and I want to try to fix it rather than continue to have rather lengthy posts back and forth where we are totally missing what the other person is saying. Could be me, even. I know I've been guilty of miscommunicating on more than a FEW occasions. A language barrier, even a small one, might explain why we aren't understanding each other as well and I can try to adjust what I'm saying more to help.

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I suppose I play a bit differently, with more of an RP mind. Each battle that I face, I see it as a life and death situation, which for 1st through 4th level characters is actually true. Unless the battle is blatantly one sided, where even novices can discern that the battle will be easy for them, characters will ensure their own survival. So far, unless the characters know exactly where the enemies are (multiple play throughs and reloads), then they are going to be going into it with a feeling of dread and with their lives at risk. Too much long rests? Well, if you die before you can even get a chance to get the tadpole out, then it won't matter much. This type of play style does cause me to long rest more then most of you here, I imagine, but as such, I haven't missed any of the cutscenes. For me "immersion" (Hi Ragnarok. :-D) is playing the game as if I'm the actual characters dealing with each situation as they arrive. Would be great to just run straight to someone who can remove them, but alas, that isn't the case, and there are monsters and enemies galore trying to stop me.

Perhaps, this is the intention that Larian was going for. It's easy to run through a game with using minimal resources because you know where every enemy is and how to position your party to defeat them easily. Not so much when you are traveling a strange land with surprises at every turn.

Bu this is just my opinion. I could be wrong. wink

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You aren't wrong, Vortex, except that you are assuming I don't play by putting myself in the character's role. Actually,that's why I I struggle with the current state. You rest a lot, and there's nothing wrong with that. I get that if you feel it is necessary to rest in order to continue then you should.

But my point is that Long Rest should only happen when you need it. In my first playthrough, I had no idea what was coming, and I was told Im going to turn into a monster very painfully in mere days. I was afraid to use long rest except as a last resort, so I pushed through until I reached the grove. I think I may have done 1 long rest so I didn't get all the dialogues.

All Im saying is that players should get all the dialogues that make sense to trigger whether they Long Rest often or not. That way they can still have all the character development.

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