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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Lastly, it's rare for well-thought-out posts backed by data to get dog-piled by opposing views. The posts that get dog-piled usually leave a lot open for interpretation or are minimal statements.
I would disagree with you there, go onto a flat earth or antivaxx facebook page and post as well thought out and argued post as you like and then come back here and tell me what the response is. I will wait :P Even in the context of these forums, there have been some occasions with dog piling on good posts.


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
That probably does happen, I don't have an idea of how frequently that actually is the situation. For example, we see posts all the time that just skipped over numerous posts to reply directly to the OP. So it seems there is quite a bit of confidence to post in the BG3 forums. Also, I'm sure measures are taken so that forum members don't feel alienated, but it's difficult for forums to be perfect.

Does happen. But I find it interesting to ask "when do people call something an echo chamber"? In what context does this word get used and applied. People -- myself included -- call something an echo chamber when the conversation isn't going their way. So I look I look at reddit (until very recently) and say "it's an echo chamber where the only discussions allowed are about romances"
By nature, if an echo chamber exists and you hold a contrary opinion to whatever the status quo is within the echo chamber, trying to post your point of view inside of it is going to result in the conversation not going your way. Its kind of a requirement for an echo chamber to exist in the first place. It doesn't mean that all complaints about the conversion not going your way are automatically because its an echo chamber, but it does mean that you can't just automatically dismiss the claim that an echo chamber exists (or is on the way to existing) simply because the conversation is not going the way the person would like.

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Comparing a flat earth board to any gaming board is totally bonkers. None of us live in alternate reality by definition by seeking out this board.

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The belief in the universality of flat-earthers is almost as closed-minded as the actual flat-earthers.

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The Surya Siddhanta is an incredible testament to the advanced thinking of ancient Indians. In this text, one can find the roots of trigonometry as well as essential mathematical inventions such as standard notation and the decimal system. In addition, the text describes gravity over a millennium before Sir Isaac Newton developed his theory in 1687. It explains sidereal revolutions and how planets move eastward. It accurately calculates the size and position of distant planets, the length of a tropical year, and the amount of time that has passed since creation. Finally, in its discussion of how time passes at different rates under different circumstances, it contains the seeds for relativity.
(Surya Siddhanta at Ancient Orgins.net)

Here's just one example. There are more of them, and lots of them are excitingly similar to the goblins in this game. And I care about goblins. But to say that they are flat-earthers is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Sharp
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Lastly, it's rare for well-thought-out posts backed by data to get dog-piled by opposing views. The posts that get dog-piled usually leave a lot open for interpretation or are minimal statements.
I would disagree with you there, go onto a flat earth or antivaxx facebook page and post as well thought out and argued post as you like and then come back here and tell me what the response is. I will wait :P Even in the context of these forums, there have been some occasions with dog piling on good posts.
Facebook is a well-known echo chamber. The Baldur's Gate 3 Forum, definitely is not an echo chamber. You will usually see Homophily on videogame forums, which is "birds of a feather flock together". If I do engage in an echo chamber, then you will see symptoms of an echo chamber on that social media platform. And please only challenge me to do things you are willing to undergo yourself.

Said dog-piling on good posts usually has other folks joining in on support. You'll get doggos from both sides.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
That probably does happen, I don't have an idea of how frequently that actually is the situation. For example, we see posts all the time that just skipped over numerous posts to reply directly to the OP. So it seems there is quite a bit of confidence to post in the BG3 forums. Also, I'm sure measures are taken so that forum members don't feel alienated, but it's difficult for forums to be perfect.

Does happen. But I find it interesting to ask "when do people call something an echo chamber"? In what context does this word get used and applied. People -- myself included -- call something an echo chamber when the conversation isn't going their way. So I look I look at reddit (until very recently) and say "it's an echo chamber where the only discussions allowed are about romances"
That's not really an echo chamber though, to be an echo chamber you would need a buffer to prevent opposing views from being seen. Conversations can not go a person's way for numerous reasons.

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This place is definitely not an echo chamber cause most everyone here wildly disagrees on something and most everyone has shared their disagreements in very vocal manners.

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Well, I initially searched for Shuar astronomy, but all the results focused on ayahuasqueros and black magic, not what I was interested in at the time, though probably far more popular with respect to Google. I know that numerous Native American tribes also possessed a knowledge concerning the motion of the stars.

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Originally Posted by Sharp
Well, here you go. I did start running out of ideas for some repeated topics around about number 19.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The forums have a rather small userbase and you can more or less keep track of the people who actively post a lot. Their opinions have been entrenched since the beginning (yourself, sludge khalid, Maximuuus, tuco, KillerRabit, etc) and have not shifted much over the course of time. There were some contrarians who also posted a lot but they have disappeared (firesnake, surfaces_R, etc). They also had their own list of issues, but they disagreed with the first group on quite a few topics and there was some back and forth discussion about it without going into mud slinging. I would strongly bet on the shift of discourse being the result of the disappearance of the latter group leading to the creation of an echo chamber here, similar to how reddit is the echo chamber to go to when you want to discuss Helsin's body.

They have, but not all grievances are the same. I personally think the weakest part of the game is the fact that it uses DND combat and would throw the entire thing away and use something else (I don't think Larian's system is a better alternative), but hell would freeze over before a completely new system was ever implemented.

Just because people are right about an issue in 1 game, does not mean a different group of people are right about a different set of issues in another game. An easy example of this is the vocal crowd in the Path of Exile community who pretty much wants to turn the game into a clicker and forget about the aRPG.

Anyhow, I am not going to get into this argument again. I had this argument when the game first came out with Sludge Khalid and nobody budged, repeating the same talking points again isn't going to get anyone anywhere. I have no intention of being Don Quixote here.

Whilst I agree that the way party controls are bad, I don't think constant repetition of feedback from the same group of people is going to change their minds about anything. Were I a developer, it would not change my mind either. If I was gathering feedback from the forums, I would use a tool to condense all the posts on a topic from single users and then measure the sentiment from the condensed post, then look at it based on the number of people complaining as well as what type of player they are. Multiple posts on the topic from a single user would be completely discarded, because I would only be counting the user's opinion on the whole. We know Larian is big on using data analysis, so I would not be surprised if they did something similar.

The best way to change their mind with such a system, would be to get lots of outsiders who are not currently complaining about it, to join in on the discussion, which would mean promoting the topic in places where it is not heavily discussed. Examples of such being on youtube, steam, twitch, twitter, etc.

I really wish this forum had a thumbs up button wink

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I like how everyone is arguing about echo chambers while conveniently ignoring the point that what happened on Reddit the past few days was absolutely NOT echo chamber behavior at all.

And it’s probably the most important thing that the overall community has ever done, because now the narrative has shifted from just being a few disgruntled forumers in a supposed echo chamber, to actually being a common sentiment among the wider community.

Quite frankly, everything we’ve done until now doesn’t matter compared to those two Reddit threads.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
There is a very real-world concern that if you stop mentioning an issue it falls to the wayside. This actually happens in business where you can report a bug in good faith, but because you thought reporting it once was good enough... you find a year later it was never resolved. Other issues that departments never stopped emailing about got moved up.

True, but on the opposite end of that, there are examples of groups of people speaking their opinions TOO much, trying to force their beliefs and opinions on others that are turning public opinion against them, in fact causing a backlash. It is a fine line between both outcomes. Just saying.

Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
That same can happen here without communication on what is on the roadmap for Baldur's Gate 3. If we do not know what Larian is looking to improve/change, we're incentivized to keep writing about it.

And sure some contrarians came and went. But is that really an echo-chamber effect? Could they have realized their argument lacked merit? It's probably a mix of the two. The echo chamber effect is usually formed by an algorithm feeding the user information... gets bumped to the top.

That can frustrate people as well when the same thread, by the same group constant push down new threads for the same argument. I can see Sharps points though. I have not witnessed many occasions where anything was met "halfway". The forums seem to be suffering from the same problem in politics of "its is my way, because my personal opinion is fact. Anyone that feels differently, are either idiots or some other insult insinuating they are either white knights or players that just want to fap to some romanceable character.

Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Also most forum members are similar, a lot of folks have played Baldur's Gate 3 and are gamers. Similar people usually form similar opinions.

I would say that is not very accurate. Yes we are all gamers, but that does not mean everyone has similar opinions. Not to mention, If you take that as fact, then doesn't that dismiss the possible opinions of all those other players that do not EVER visit them, or reddit? When it is all said and done, my only issue is when people try to inflate their own personal opinions, by some how seeming to assume that they represent a "group of players" or anything other than just their own opinion. Not saying you do that, actually, quite the opposite, I generally respect your posts. At the end of the day, we have no idea what Larian is taking in from the forum. I am sure they have some kind of metrics they can pull from the data.

Originally Posted by Sharpe
Pretty much every one of these topics has been done to death and I could draw up argument flowcharts with the for/against illustrating the different positions, at this point its just repeating the same stuff over and over again for the sake of doing so.

I couldn't agree more

Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
A big part of it, is that the issues brought up on the forums are still present in the game. If the issues are addressed people will stop talking about it. if combat is improved, I'm sure people will start talking about something else...But while party movement, inventory management, and combat stay the same we will see the same discussions.

Isn't that just the definition of "Mob Mentality"? So basically, that means that their should be the shouting to the four corners, over a subject that has already been argued over and over? I am not sure if that is always a good thing. But I totally agree there are issues with party movement, inventory and combat, I am just not sure some of the "answers" by some would be something I or others may not enjoy. That is why I generally think (well hope) that the developer has the information they need already, they keep to their roadmap, and find a middle ground that will appeal to both sides of the discussion. From their latest patch I have seen some changes that were discussed. I have never been a fan of development by consensus though. As far as I am concerned, if a studio does not already have a vision of what will make a great game, throwing in a bunch of suggestions by everybody just muddies the pot and can cause all sorts of issues, bugs, or a bland experience.


Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Players A, B, and C have been discussing the issues for months. Player D started playing the game two weeks ago and wants to provide feedback on the forums. Player D also loves many aspects of the game but feels combat and party movement could be improved. (And the cycle starts again).

Truer words were never spoken.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
I really wish this forum had a thumbs up button wink

It's been looked into; all it has out-of-the-box is "rate topic" which isn't very useful, but other approaches may be tried.

Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Players A, B, and C have been discussing the issues for months. Player D started playing the game two weeks ago and wants to provide feedback on the forums. Player D also loves many aspects of the game but feels combat and party movement could be improved. (And the cycle starts again).

Truer words were never spoken.

One of the reasons for several of the mega-threads. It's hard to keep everyone happy when old-timers see the same argument for the eleventy-billionth time but newcomers feel "but we already discussed this without you six months ago" isn't really fair. I think what does make a difference is constructive criticism as opinions can sometimes get a bit entrenched and shouty otherwise, and the resulting negativity can put people off.


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Originally Posted by vometia
One of the reasons for several of the mega-threads. It's hard to keep everyone happy when old-timers see the same argument for the eleventy-billionth time but newcomers feel "but we already discussed this without you six months ago" isn't really fair. I think what does make a difference is constructive criticism as opinions can sometimes get a bit entrenched and shouty otherwise, and the resulting negativity can put people off.

The difficult part is the "constructive" part. Especially when it is involving the mega threads. I will say, at lest when a newcomer "necros" a thread, that is far more interesting than to see it necroed by an existing actor chanting the same points. I am glad I don't have to mod a forum. I would lose my shi&t!

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
A big part of it, is that the issues brought up on the forums are still present in the game. If the issues are addressed people will stop talking about it. if combat is improved, I'm sure people will start talking about something else...But while party movement, inventory management, and combat stay the same we will see the same discussions.

Isn't that just the definition of "Mob Mentality"? So basically, that means that their should be the shouting to the four corners, over a subject that has already been argued over and over? I am not sure if that is always a good thing. But I totally agree there are issues with party movement, inventory and combat, I am just not sure some of the "answers" by some would be something I or others may not enjoy. That is why I generally think (well hope) that the developer has the information they need already, they keep to their roadmap, and find a middle ground that will appeal to both sides of the discussion. From their latest patch I have seen some changes that were discussed. I have never been a fan of development by consensus though. As far as I am concerned, if a studio does not already have a vision of what will make a great game, throwing in a bunch of suggestions by everybody just muddies the pot and can cause all sorts of issues, bugs, or a bland experience.
There is definitely an element of mob mentality to forums in general.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
The difficult part is the "constructive" part. Especially when it is involving the mega threads. I will say, at lest when a newcomer "necros" a thread, that is far more interesting than to see it necroed by an existing actor chanting the same points. I am glad I don't have to mod a forum. I would lose my shi&t!

Which is why I've been largely absent for the past six months! A number of my friends are schoolteachers and I'm not entirely sure how they maintain their sanity.

I think as a general rule it makes for a more interesting and productive discussion if one can bring along new viewpoints or at least discuss the subject respectfully; which is usually the case, but there have been examples where someone repeatedly makes exactly the same point in a manner which tends to stifle discourse rather than encouraging it. Other than "I won the internet today", nothing is gained.


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Whose interests are harmed by "necro'ing" posts? Is that a policy guarded by the forum administrators?

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Originally Posted by GristlyKnuckle
Whose interests are harmed by "necro'ing" posts? Is that a policy guarded by the forum administrators?

No. On the contrary, we tend to prefer ongoing discussions in the same place, at least where reasonable.


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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I like how everyone is arguing about echo chambers
It's background noise, really,
The whine about echo chambers is conveniently picked up every time someone feels cornered.
There are cases where the accusation may hold some merit, but to suggest it applies to this forum borders in denial.

Last edited by Tuco; 10/04/21 08:35 AM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
It's background noise, really,
The whine about echo chambers is conveniently picked up every time someone feels cornered.
There are cases where the accusation may hold some merit, but to suggest it applies to this forum borders in denial.

Pretty much. It's why I've pretty much chosen to disengage from the arguments about it over the past page or so. It's nothing but worthless semantics, has zero relevance to the actual content of the discussions other than 'I don't like how often you're mentioning certain things'. and nothing about it can even be applied to whatever happened over at Reddit over the past few days anyway.

Which, as I will echo again, what happened at Reddit probably matters FAR more to Larian from a feedback standpoint than anything that has ever happened on this forum, by merit of completely shattering the perception of that place (with a population dwarfing these forums by several dozens of degrees) being an echo chamber that's okay with the current system to pieces. Because as it turned out, they really weren't okay with these things after all, most people over there were probably just afraid of being gaslighted as purists or Larian haters or eating downvotes until now. And if they came out in droves to make it clear that they generally weren't okay with the various aspects of the combat design (on a platform that makes it difficult to hold a single topic for any longer than a day, no less), what does that say for the more fragmented communities everywhere else?

But I will say one other thing before dipping out of this echo chamber talk completely. One can describe these forums as a very negative echo chamber, but few ever think of the harmful effects that an echo chamber fueled by positivity can have. The latter by nature is FAR harder to call out without people assigning an asshole tag to your name, and will oft drown out anything remotely critical regardless of the context. It is counterproductive to desire something like the latter if you are looking for actual feedback.

People can go into side chatter about whether or not certain things are faithful to the rules or not. My own sole motivation for being here is a recognition that a lot of the systems as they currently are would not fly in any tactical turn-based game at all, comparisons to DnD be damned. Any other turn-based game having such imbalanced core mechanics (that for one can't seem to decide if it wants you to not have to worry about the RNG at all, or punish you by immediately dumping a cascade of suboptimal probabilities over a few pixels worth of difference in positioning) would have been raked over the coals by now, and it feels like it's only because of Larian's name that people have to tiptoe around talking about it among the wider community in this case.

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
But I will say one other thing before dipping out of this echo chamber talk completely. One can describe these forums as a very negative echo chamber, but few ever think of the harmful effects that an echo chamber fueled by positivity can have. The latter by nature is FAR harder to call out without people assigning an asshole tag to your name, and will oft drown out anything remotely critical regardless of the context. It is counterproductive to desire something like the latter if you are looking for actual feedback.

Well, it's not particularly surprising when you think about it.
It would probably hard to identify a single case in the entire history of mankind where surrounding themselves with sycophants unwilling to offer anything but praises EVER helped anyone to better themselves. To any degree.


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Realistically, people who dislikes the game will just leave the forums and forget about it, while others enjoying it will support it and offer detailed feedback. Then you have the middle ground, people who WANTS to love the game but just cant due to some xxx flaws...Basically a HUGE minority in a sea of supporters which heavily criticize the slightest mention of something negative toward the game...hence lowering this middle ground to just pure dislike towards the game, the end result being...just leave the forum and forget about the game.
What will be left is basically just supporters and a few haters that holds grudges.
This has been precisely progressively happening since last November. Its actually a fascinating case study.

My take:
Productive/concise/constructive criticism is especially helpful during EA. Everything else isn't.

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Realistically, people who dislikes the game will just leave the forums and forget about it, while others enjoying it will support it and offer detailed feedback. Then you have the middle ground, people who WANTS to love the game but just cant due to some xxx flaws...Basically a HUGE minority in a sea of supporters which heavily criticize the slightest mention of something negative toward the game...hence lowering this middle ground to just pure dislike towards the game, the end result being...just leave the forum and forget about the game.
What will be left is basically just supporters and a few haters that holds grudges.
This has been precisely progressively happening since last November. Its actually a fascinating case study.

Admittedly, the overall tone and existing topics to even talk about can color one's perception too. Few have the skill to really explain their stance without sinking into generalizations... Or are naturally sliding into generalizations because of a lack of openings to really explain either.

From the way I post, I imagine most people have already lumped me into the 'hater with a grudge' camp. The reality is, I love everything about the game EXCEPT the combat and the party controls, and as it stands, the combat is currently in a bad enough place to really sour my overall opinion on the game. Combat design is also a higher priority for me than the writing and quality of the graphics, because it's the part of the game where you're expected to engage with the deeper mechanics and actually think. One can write a compelling story all they want, it’s the combat that will decide whether I’ll do another playthrough to see what I missed the first time around.

Unless you’re the devs of Disco Elysium, who made the bold decision of having no combat at all, and it’s arguably a lot better off for it.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 10/04/21 10:36 AM.
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