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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
My take:
Productive/concise/constructive criticism is especially helpful during EA. Everything else isn't.
That would sound so simple. Until you realize that even identifying what qualifies "constructive criticism" becomes mostly arbitrary at a certain point.

You already have a bunch of users relentlessly trying to bash on the head anyone posting anything remotely critic and dismiss them as "haters" (as if I would be here wasting my time if I genuinely "hated" the game).
They apparently made their mission in life to be passive-aggressive toward anyone who doesn't shower the game and the devs in a deluge of constant praises.


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I’d also like to say that discussions here could be a lot worse. Repeated talking points with a different spin might be preferable to many alternatives.

For instance, the BG3 thread at RPGCodex has been on a multiclass tangent for the past week. And the Solasta thread somehow managed to segue into a philosophical debate about the cultural dynamics of slavery. It’s morbidly interesting, but how did that even happen in the freaking Solasta thread, of all places?

That said I’m only a casual observer over there, as I don’t have an account on that forum.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
That same can happen here without communication on what is on the roadmap for Baldur's Gate 3. If we do not know what Larian is looking to improve/change, we're incentivized to keep writing about it.

And sure some contrarians came and went. But is that really an echo-chamber effect? Could they have realized their argument lacked merit? It's probably a mix of the two. The echo chamber effect is usually formed by an algorithm feeding the user information... gets bumped to the top.

That can frustrate people as well when the same thread, by the same group constant push down new threads for the same argument. I can see Sharps points though. I have not witnessed many occasions where anything was met "halfway". The forums seem to be suffering from the same problem in politics of "its is my way, because my personal opinion is fact. Anyone that feels differently, are either idiots or some other insult insinuating they are either white knights or players that just want to fap to some romanceable character.

As far as I've seen that's your own attitude you're describing.


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"Recurring talking points" happen in the first place because new people brings up already discussed topics.

Basically no one enjoys repeating themselves over and over if they can help it, but there are only so many effective combinations of words you can use to talk about the same topics, and giving up on speaking about them can conversely let the topic die and be perceived as something "Not interesting/important enough".

Hell, the whole "We already discussed this topic here: *copy-pasted link* " you see on many forums is a behavior that exists precisely as a subtle substitute for "Yeah, this is an argument many of us care about, but FUCK IT if I'm going to repeat myself for the 1000th time just because you didn't look around before posting".


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Originally Posted by Dexai
As far as I've seen that's your own attitude you're describing.

A timely example of what is not constructive. Let's move on, please.


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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
The forums seem to be suffering from the same problem in politics of "its is my way, because my personal opinion is fact. Anyone that feels differently, are either idiots or some other insult insinuating they are either white knights or players that just want to fap to some romanceable character.

- Easy advantage leading to useless spells/abilities and decreasing the tactical value of the game = fact
- Eating pig head is better than healing potion = fact.
- Shove is OP compared to anything else = fact
- Party of 4 is less "AP/round" then 5 or 6 party member = fact.
- The resting system broke the concept of ressource management = fact
- BG3's Auto reactions >< D&D reactions = fact.
- Dipping Sword in a candle is not possible even in the reality of the FR = fact.
- Jumping to disengage reduce/delete the zone of control of melee ennemies = fact.
- ...

The most discussed threads here are based on facts.
Maybe a lot of people don't consider those facts as issues but... it's a personnal opinion.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/04/21 12:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Dexai
As far as I've seen that's your own attitude you're describing.

A timely example of what is not constructive. Let's move on, please.

Should I have phrased it as a generalised, passive aggressive remark about the entire forum instead of being direct and adressing the person I'm referring to?

Really, there is a recurring theme of Pandemonica passive aggressively and snidely responding to and remarking at other forum members, with barely veiled intent and targets, obvious bait, and the moderators here only assessing the people who gets riled up by their frankly outright toxic behaviour.

Above, all I did was direct Pandemonica's words back at them. And yet somehow that is not okay, but when they said those exact words it was? The double standard is palpable.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
Should I have phrased it as a generalised, passive aggressive remark about the entire forum instead of being direct and adressing the person I'm referring to?

Really, there is a recurring theme of Pandemonica passive aggressively and snidely responding to and remarking at other forum members, with barely veiled intent and targets, obvious bait, and the moderators here only assessing the people who gets riled up by their frankly outright toxic behaviour.

Above, all I did was direct Pandemonica's words back at them. And yet somehow that is not okay, but when they said those exact words it was? The double standard is palpable.
Someone here hit a home run.

Yeah, yeah. I won't go any more into this specific direction because I find the forced interaction with "certain" users already unpleasant enough as it is (and I put my best effort into pretending I was ignoring them), but I wasn't willing to let you stand up alone on this one.

Last edited by Tuco; 10/04/21 01:03 PM.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
The forums seem to be suffering from the same problem in politics of "its is my way, because my personal opinion is fact. Anyone that feels differently, are either idiots or some other insult insinuating they are either white knights or players that just want to fap to some romanceable character.

- Easy advantage leading to useless spells/abilities and decreasing the tactical value of the game = fact
- Eating pig head is better than healing potion = fact.
- Shove is OP compared to anything else = fact
- Party of 4 is less "AP/round" then 5 or 6 party member = fact.
- The resting system broke the concept of ressource management = fact
- BG3's Auto reactions >< D&D reactions = fact.
- Dipping Sword in a candle is not possible even in the reality of the FR = fact.
- Jumping to disengage reduce/delete the zone of control of melee ennemies = fact.
- ...

The most discussed threads here are based on facts.
Maybe a lot of people don't consider those facts as issues but... it's a personnal opinion.

That's true - and I want to add, that sometimes you have to repeat yourself, because something is important and you don#t want it to get drown in other. things like party size, some combat mechanica and such are recurring themes, which shows, that it is important to a lot of people.
And you can give criticism and still like the game.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Dexai
Should I have phrased it as a generalised, passive aggressive remark about the entire forum instead of being direct and adressing the person I'm referring to?

Really, there is a recurring theme of Pandemonica passive aggressively and snidely responding to and remarking at other forum members, with barely veiled intent and targets, obvious bait, and the moderators here only assessing the people who gets riled up by their frankly outright toxic behaviour.

Above, all I did was direct Pandemonica's words back at them. And yet somehow that is not okay, but when they said those exact words it was? The double standard is palpable.
Someone here hit a home run.

Yeah, yeah. I won't go any more into this specific direction because I find the forced interaction with "certain" users already unpleasant enough as it is (and I put my best effort into pretending I was ignoring them), but I wasn't willing to let you stand up alone on this one.
+1 to this sentiment - deference to the mods, but its really frustrating interacting with a number of what i would consider 'bad faith' posters. granted i havent been in the forums much lately due to the lack of new content/updates during ea, but wanted to also voice support for those still fighting the good fight smile

looking fwd to patch/upate five tho, hopefully without the production from hell wink

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
The forums seem to be suffering from the same problem in politics of "its is my way, because my personal opinion is fact. Anyone that feels differently, are either idiots or some other insult insinuating they are either white knights or players that just want to fap to some romanceable character.

- Easy advantage leading to useless spells/abilities and decreasing the tactical value of the game = fact
- Eating pig head is better than healing potion = fact.
- Shove is OP compared to anything else = fact
- Party of 4 is less "AP/round" then 5 or 6 party member = fact.
- The resting system broke the concept of ressource management = fact
- BG3's Auto reactions >< D&D reactions = fact.
- Dipping Sword in a candle is not possible even in the reality of the FR = fact.
- Jumping to disengage reduce/delete the zone of control of melee ennemies = fact.
- ...

The most discussed threads here are based on facts.
Maybe a lot of people don't consider those facts as issues but... it's a personnal opinion.
I'd add lack of class features or class features that are implemented completely different from the PnP. A good example is Rogue not having expertise, everyone having Cunning Action and Thief being a different subclass entirely.

Why do we keep mentioning this? Because none of it has been addressed. I'm not saying that it should be changed, I'm not a dev, just addressed, talked about. If they are deliberately going in this D&D/DOS hybrid direction because they think it is better, please state it clearly so I can update my expectations.

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Admittedly, the overall tone and existing topics to even talk about can color one's perception too. Few have the skill to really explain their stance without sinking into generalizations... Or are naturally sliding into generalizations because of a lack of openings to really explain either.
It's hard to not generalize on forums. To get specific it takes data or a reliable resource, and acquiring either can be time consuming. It's also risky to refer to specific forum members.

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
From the way I post, I imagine most people have already lumped me into the 'hater with a grudge' camp. The reality is, I love everything about the game EXCEPT the combat and the party controls, and as it stands, the combat is currently in a bad enough place to really sour my overall opinion on the game. Combat design is also a higher priority for me than the writing and quality of the graphics, because it's the part of the game where you're expected to engage with the deeper mechanics and actually think. One can write a compelling story all they want, it’s the combat that will decide whether I’ll do another playthrough to see what I missed the first time around.

Unless you’re the devs of Disco Elysium, who made the bold decision of having no combat at all, and it’s arguably a lot better off for it.

I don't see too many folks in the "hater with a grudge" camp. I certainly haven't seen you as one.

Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I like how everyone is arguing about echo chambers
It's background noise, really,
The whine about echo chambers is conveniently picked up every time someone feels cornered.
There are cases where the accusation may hold some merit, but to suggest it applies to this forum borders in denial.
It would be great if folks were confident in their arguments/opinions and more willing to supplement with data or facts.
I don't know why some would feel they need to use deflections like "claims of an echo chamber" and "I dare you to go to Facebook and do x, y, z."

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Should I have phrased it as a generalised, passive aggressive remark about the entire forum instead of being direct and adressing the person I'm referring to?

Really, there is a recurring theme of Pandemonica passive aggressively and snidely responding to and remarking at other forum members, with barely veiled intent and targets, obvious bait, and the moderators here only assessing the people who gets riled up by their frankly outright toxic behaviour.

Above, all I did was direct Pandemonica's words back at them. And yet somehow that is not okay, but when they said those exact words it was? The double standard is palpable.

This was a silent concern of mine over the past few months too, that I only really see warnings getting dropped on people that are perceived as hostile to Larian, even with two people poking at each other from either faction. The only exception was that one guy who was literally asking for it by calling all DnD fans trash, and that was a case of having absolutely no plausible deniability there. It's especially poignant to me, because I actually used to be a moderator for the official Nexon forums when they used to host Dragon Nest NA, and had moderated in similar ways. Granted, I did not have ban powers (us volunteer moderators could only recommend bans to the admins), but the way I wielded my influence and the people I recommended for bans was highly suspect at best in hindsight.

No one could ask me to become a moderator again. That power DID corrupt me, and I've since accepted that realization.

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
This was a silent concern of mine over the past few months too, that I only really see warnings getting dropped on people that are perceived as hostile to Larian, even with two people poking at each other from either faction. The only exception was that one guy who was literally asking for it by calling all DnD fans trash, and that was a case of having absolutely no plausible deniability there. It's especially poignant to me, because I actually used to be a moderator for the official Nexon forums when they used to host Dragon Nest NA, and had moderated in similar ways. Granted, I did not have ban powers (us volunteer moderators could only recommend bans to the admins), but the way I wielded my influence was highly suspect at best in hindsight.

That's an interesting viewpoint. My opinion for what it's worth is to wonder if occasionally people might take informal warnings a bit too personally; I've seen several examples of that when I eventually interject to say "enough!" which is often not at one particular person but just as a general note to cool it off, make the comments less personal or whatever (and I'm sometimes guilty of seeing things that way myself when I'm active elsewhere). I'm not interested in the least about whether or not someone is more pro or anti the game and frequently have little idea about which "side" a given forum member might be on, if any; it's the risk of flare-ups that tends to get my attention.

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
No one could ask me to become a moderator again.

There is that. Often the people who want to be moderators aren't the best fit and vice-versa. I'm not particularly enthusiastic about telling people what to do and I'm mostly here to meddle with the forum and boot spammers off...


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Yeah, my comments weren't really directed at you at all, more of a general thing.

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Originally Posted by fylimar
That's true - and I want to add, that sometimes you have to repeat yourself, because something is important and you don#t want it to get drown in other. things like party size, some combat mechanica and such are recurring themes, which shows, that it is important to a lot of people.
And you can give criticism and still like the game.

No one is saying criticism is a bad thing. But their is a difference between constructive criticism and ranting. The issue is, when someone disagrees with the ranter and then is degraded and belittled.

And @dexai I would challenge you to find where I have EVER been combative, or dismissive in any post until I was attacked for my view, because God forbid I didn't agree with the "Larian is sh%t" narrative, "Copy Solasta", or you know, because I disagree about having a 5 or 6 party size. Then, when someone is called on that, they resort to the classic "I do this out of love for the game" as if that justifies anything. But thanks for proving my point in your post above when I was not even engaging with you, and was just having a debate about the possible effects of continuous posting about the same subject and its possible effects on the populace.

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I do have a certain post of yours from two months ago coming after me AND Scribe in a thread that was specifically created to be combative to the whole forum in general, accusing me for having a big ego for typing large posts in general, and neither of us had been engaging with anyone but the OP... And I had also argued for both combative threads to be locked beforehand, the ones for and against what was happening at the time.

But I only bring this up as a third party in the interests of shutting down this talk, as it might be more effective than having the addressee reply, for the latter will most likely only result in an escalation into a ban. The administrator also did say to drop this, so. A bit more of this and I'd say this thread has probably run its course too, if it hasn't already. It's not as if we're even talking about what happened on Reddit anymore...

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I do have a certain post of yours from two months ago coming after me AND Scribe in a thread that was specifically created to be combative to the whole forum in general, accusing me for having a big ego for typing large posts in general, and neither of us had been engaging with anyone but the OP... And I had also argued for both combative threads to be locked beforehand, the ones for and against what was happening at the time.

But I only bring this up as a third party in the interests of shutting down this talk, as it might be more effective than having the addressee reply, for the latter will most likely only result in an escalation into a ban. The administrator also did say to drop this, so. A bit more of this and I'd say this thread has probably run its course too, if it hasn't already. It's not as if we're even talking about what happened on Reddit anymore...

I would really be interested in you linking what thread you are speaking of so I can review the context of my comment you viewed as coming off as combative just off the bat. You could even DM it to me, so we do not carry it on in the thread.

*edit: wow if you think that I became combative off the bat for no reason, I would suggest you share the thread and let posters read the whole thread. Like you yourself stated in the thread, context matters. Not going to do a back and forth about the rights and wrongs of that thread, but it is surprising that you may think you were somehow above the fray. Anyways, to each their own.

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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
This was a silent concern of mine over the past few months too, that I only really see warnings getting dropped on people that are perceived as hostile to Larian, even with two people poking at each other from either faction. The only exception was that one guy who was literally asking for it by calling all DnD fans trash, and that was a case of having absolutely no plausible deniability there. It's especially poignant to me, because I actually used to be a moderator for the official Nexon forums when they used to host Dragon Nest NA, and had moderated in similar ways. Granted, I did not have ban powers (us volunteer moderators could only recommend bans to the admins), but the way I wielded my influence was highly suspect at best in hindsight.

That's an interesting viewpoint. My opinion for what it's worth is to wonder if occasionally people might take informal warnings a bit too personally; I've seen several examples of that when I eventually interject to say "enough!" which is often not at one particular person but just as a general note to cool it off, make the comments less personal or whatever (and I'm sometimes guilty of seeing things that way myself when I'm active elsewhere). I'm not interested in the least about whether or not someone is more pro or anti the game and frequently have little idea about which "side" a given forum member might be on, if any; it's the risk of flare-ups that tends to get my attention.

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
No one could ask me to become a moderator again.

There is that. Often the people who want to be moderators aren't the best fit and vice-versa. I'm not particularly enthusiastic about telling people what to do and I'm mostly here to meddle with the forum and boot spammers off...

It's easy to give out "informal warnings" when you're the one with all the power. It's much more concerning when an informal warning turns into "and now i have to do paperwork" (implying a ban) in the space of a single post.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by fylimar
That's true - and I want to add, that sometimes you have to repeat yourself, because something is important and you don#t want it to get drown in other. things like party size, some combat mechanica and such are recurring themes, which shows, that it is important to a lot of people.
And you can give criticism and still like the game.

No one is saying criticism is a bad thing. But their is a difference between constructive criticism and ranting. The issue is, when someone disagrees with the ranter and then is degraded and belittled.

And @dexai I would challenge you to find where I have EVER been combative, or dismissive in any post until I was attacked for my view, because God forbid I didn't agree with the "Larian is sh%t" narrative, "Copy Solasta", or you know, because I disagree about having a 5 or 6 party size. Then, when someone is called on that, they resort to the classic l"I do this out of love for the game" as if that justifies anything. But thanks for proving my point in your post above when I was not even engaging with you, and was just having a debate about the possible effects of continuous posting about the same subject and its possible effects on the populace.

You mean any post aside from the one I quoted above where you did exactly that? And now you put on the victim sweater, poor you were only "having a debate", yet all I did was direct your own words and opinions about other people here on the forums back at you, the pot calling the kettle black. You sure get mighty defensive for a pot that weren't bring combative or dismissive towards the kettle.

I understand your point about me not having been involved in the discussion before though, I disagree that that means I shouldn't respond to your public remarks though -- however I look forward to you applying that standard of yours to yourself in the future and not replying to any post or thread that doesn't directly mention or engage with you first.


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