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Originally Posted by DuskHorseman
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Real disappointing having so few classes/racesin BG3...But hey, tons of cinematic dialogues thats what counts right?
Pathfinder Wrath of the Rightheous in EA right now has an amazing amount of class content with still more to come, includes:

Alchemist: Chirurgeon, Grenadier, Vivisectionist
Arcanist:
Barbarian: Armored Hulk, Invulnerable Rager, Mad Dog
Bard: Archaeologist, Dirge Bard, Flame Dancer, Thundercaller
Bloodrager:
Cavalier: Beast Rider, Disciple of the Pike, Gendarme, Knight of the Wall, Standard Bearer,
Cleric: Crusader, Ecclesitheurge, Herald Caller,
Druid: Blight Druid, Defender of the True World, Feyspeaker
Fighter: Aldori Defender, Armiger, Dragonheir Scion, Mutation Warrior, Tower Shield Specialist, Two-Handed Fighter
Inquisitor: Monster Tactician, Sacred Huntsmaster, Tactical Leader
Kineticist: Dark Elementalist, Kinetic Knight, Overwhelming Soul, Psychokineticist
Magus: Eldritch Archer, Eldritch Scion, Sword Saint
Monk: Scaled Fist, Sensei, Sohei, Traditional Monk, Zen Archer
Oracle:
Paladin: Divine Guardian, Divine Hunter, Hospitaler, Martyr, Warrior of Holy Light
Ranger: Flame Warden, Freebooter, Stormwalker
Rogue: Eldritch Scoundrel, Knife Master, Thug
Shaman: Possessed, Spirit Hunter, Spirit Warden, Unsworn Shaman, Witch Doctor
Skald: Battle Scion, Court Poet, Demon Dancer, Herald of the Horn, Hunt Caller
Slayer: Arcane Enforcer, Deliverer, Spawn Slayer, Vanguard
Sorcerer: Empyreal Sorcerer, Sage Sorcerer, Sylvan Sorcerer
Warpriest: Champion of the Faith, Cult Leader, Disenchanter, Feral Champion, Shieldbearer
Witch: Hagbound, Hex Channeler, Ley Line Guardian, Stigmatized Witch, Winter Witch
Wizard: Arcane Bomber, Exploiter Wizard, Scroll Savant, Thassilonian Specialist

Prestige Classes:

Aldori Swordlord
Arcane Trickster
Assassin
Dragon Disciple
Duelist
Eldritch Knight
Hellknight
Mystic Theurge
Stalwart Defender
Student of War
Winter Witch

Mate, Pathfinder is an entirely different system. You're comparing a massive banquet to a gourmet cheeseburger. Both are good, and high-quality, but also entirely different things. There just flat-out aren't that many classes in 5e compared to Pathfinder. This gripe isn't with the game, it's with 5e, and I suggest that you put your criticisms of that system in the areas where they are most relevant.


Well different system isn’t fully true. It’s a different edition of DnD. It’s an improved 3.5 DnD ruleset. So it depends on the viewpoint. And if someone’s personal DnD experience is based on 3.5 or earlier then pathfinder ist more DnD than 5e.

If you DnD experience is based on DnD 4.0 or later then it’s a totally different system.

For Videogames if neverwinter online is your personal best DnD game then pathfinder sucks. If you like any games before NW online then pathfinder is more like them than bg3

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Pathfinder is a completely different system. On classes and subclasses we have an actual chance to get if Larian gets closer to 5e (* means already in BG3. PHB = Player's Handbook, XGE = Xanathar's Guide to Everything, TCE = Tasha's Guide to Everything, SCAG = Sword Coast's Adventurer Guide, EGW = Explorer's Guide to Wildmount, DMG = Dungeon Master's Guide):

Wizard*-
- PHB: School of Abjuration*, School of Conjuration, School of Divination, School of Enchantment, School of Evocation*, School of Illusion, School of Necromancy, School of Transmutation
- XGE: School of War Magic
- TCE: Bladesinger, Order of Scrubes
- EGW (Wildmount stuff seems unlikely but will list regardless): School of Chronurgy, School of Graviturgy

Warlock*:
-Patrons
- PHB: Archfey, Fiend*, Great Old One*
- SCAG: Undying
- XGE: Hexblade, Celestial
- TCE: Genie, Fathomless
-Pact Boons
- PHB: Pact of the Chain*, Pact of the Blade, Pact of the Tome
- TCE: Pact of the Talisman

Sorcerer:
- PHB: Draconic Bloodline, Wild Magic
- XGE: Divine Soul, Shadow, Storm,
- TCE: Aberrant Mind, Clockwork Soul

Rogue*:
- PHB: Arcane Trickster*, Assassin, Thief*
- XGE: Inquisitive, Mastermind, Scout, Swashbuckler
- TCE: Soulknife, Phantom

Ranger*:
-TCE Optional Features (Worth Listing here because they change Ranger.): Favored Foe, Deft Explorer, Primal Awareness, Nature's Veil, Primal Companion (Beast Master)
- PHB: Beast Master*, Hunter*
- XGE: Gloom Stalker, Horizon Walker, Monster Slayer
- TCE: Fey Wanderer, Swarmkeeper

Paladin:
- PHB: Ancients, Devotion, Vengeance
- DMG: Oathbreaker
- SCAG: Crown
- XGE: Conquest, Redemption
- TCE: Glory, Watchers

Monk:
- PHB: Four Elements, Open Hand, Shadow
- SCAG: Long Death
- XGE: Drunken Master, Kensei, Sun Soul
- TCE: Astral Self, Mercy

Fighter*:
- PHB: Battle master*, Champion, Eldritch Knight*
- SCAG: Banneret
- XGE: Arcane Archer, Cavalier, Samurai
- TCE: Psi Warrior, Rune Knight
- EGW: Echo Knight

Druid*:
- PHB: Land*, Moon*
- XGE: Dreams, Shepherd
- TCE: Spores, Stars, Wildfire

Cleric*:
- PHB: Life*, Light*, Trickery*, Knowledge, Nature, Tempest, War
- DMG: Death
- SCAG: Arcana
- XGE: Forge, Grave
- TCE: Order, Peace, Twilight

Bard:
- PHB: Lore. Valor
- XGE: Glamour, Swords, Whispers
- TCE: Creation, Eloquence

Barbarian:
- PHB: Berserker, Totem Warrior
- SCAG: Battlerager
- XGE: Zealot, Stormherald, Ancestral Guardian
- TCE: Wild Magic, Beast

Artificer:
TCE: Alchemist, Armorer, Artillerist, Battle Smith

(Very Unlikely but listed on D&D Beyond so worth mentioning)
Bloodhunter:
- D&D Beyond: Order of the Ghostslayer, Order of the Lycan, Order of the Mutant, Order of the Profane Soul

Essentially that is every class (unless I missed one or two) that has the potential to be added to BG3. I would certainly hope that all of them get added (except maybe Bloodhunter, even though I love it, it is not considered "official" yet so hopefully it gets actually published at some point in an official book when it is fully balanced) so we get a complete D&D 5e experience where people can make whatever character they desire to make. Notably, most all of these classes were made with the Faerun setting in mind, especially those in XGE and SCAG but to a lesser extent TCE. So everything here would fit in BG3 lorewise. I do realize everything being added is a tall order and not that likely but a summoner can dream (atleast I'll get Conjuration Wizard).

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Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
Making such stunning visuals and Voiceover you simply can’t have a comparable content. Even if 5e wasn’t a simplified ruleset there would be no way to implement that number of features and still making such awesome visuals. As a developer you have to make a choice between visuals and content focus.
There is no such choice. Games with high budget can have great visuals AND great gameplay as there are separate teams for each section. If the gameplay is underwhelming, it is their fault, not that they wanted to have great graphics and animation.
Kingmaker only has great gameplay because they only have money for that.

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
Making such stunning visuals and Voiceover you simply can’t have a comparable content. Even if 5e wasn’t a simplified ruleset there would be no way to implement that number of features and still making such awesome visuals. As a developer you have to make a choice between visuals and content focus.
There is no such choice. Games with high budget can have great visuals AND great gameplay as there are separate teams for each section. If the gameplay is underwhelming, it is their fault, not that they wanted to have great graphics and animation.
Kingmaker only has great gameplay because they only have money for that.

Agreed, with the size of Larian's expanding team no choice should be made, and ideally you want both to be good or a balance to be achieved.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
Making such stunning visuals and Voiceover you simply can’t have a comparable content. Even if 5e wasn’t a simplified ruleset there would be no way to implement that number of features and still making such awesome visuals. As a developer you have to make a choice between visuals and content focus.
There is no such choice. Games with high budget can have great visuals AND great gameplay as there are separate teams for each section. If the gameplay is underwhelming, it is their fault, not that they wanted to have great graphics and animation.
Kingmaker only has great gameplay because they only have money for that.

Agreed, with the size of Larian's expanding team no choice should be made, and ideally you want both to be good or a balance to be achieved.

All games have limitations due to budgets, and almost all developers want to do more than they actually manage to deliver.

Low sophistication A/V games such as, say, Solasta can prototype and modify gameplay much more readily, because they do not also need to reflect/integrate that in the way the game/characters/environment react; generally they use text/prompts and screen-aligned VFX.

In contrast, it is much more costly, in development terms, to rework systems in games with more sophisticated A/V. That development cost is probably why we have so many hold-overs from D:OS and why they want to make the reaction system automatic.

It is, of course, perfectly possible for Larian to change the entire mechanics of the EA experience, but that would be at a significant cost to the breadth or depth in the game ( less races/classes/monsters, less story content/sidequests ).

What Larian are doing may not be perfect, but I would much prefer they deliver as much of their game vision as possible in the direction they are heading, rather than alter course and run aground ( or get wedged in the Suez Canal smile ).

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Well another thing you need to keep in mind is the target audience.

When you add 5 Subklasses to every class....and include all spells, the game gets a lot more complicated.

More Options to choose for new players that are not familiar with dnd, and they said they are their target... so jeah. dont expect more, and i honestly wouldnt want more.

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Tbh I am not hell-bent about this having to include everything from the rulebook(s) to the letter. I enjoyed BG1/2 and its setting long before I ever played the PnP. If they can polish up what we have in EA, add/modify a couple more systems and multiply that x3 into an interesting arc I will be satisfied.
So far I really like what we have in terms of character/story-development and the combat overall feels decent enough for the state that it is in (pending lots of polish). In the end I like my battles to be a challenging tactical experience and most of my issues with the game don't necessarily need a strict adherence to the 5e ruleset to be fixed.

As much as I enjoyed Kingmaker and am intrigued by Solasta, BG3 feels like it already has its own niche.

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Originally Posted by Holokom
Well according to their Anwsers from Streams etc we get:

3 Acts of Gameplay Content, ATM we got an area thats roughly the first act. Underdark is second act, but we are missing out on some areas so its about the same.


Races: All PHB Options mean:

Human, Woodelf, Highelf, Drow, Halfelf. Hill Dwarf, Mountain Dwarf, Halfling, Tiefling.

Missing but will come according to this Statement: Dragonborn, Halforc, Gnome. (Dragonborn have Breathattacks, Halforcs are just utterly OP for Fighting, and Gnomes are resistant to magic)


Classes:

Fighter: Battlemaster, Eldritchknight- (Champion is still missing from Phb)
Ranger: (got a complete overhaul and is different from normal DnD, no comparision possible)
Druid: Circle of Land, Circle of the Moon (Complete)
Cleric: Life Domain, Light Domain, Trickery Domain. (Missing: Knowledge, Nature and Tempest Domain)
Wizard: Abjuration and Evocation are in. (Transmutation, Divination, Enchantment,Conjuration, Necromancy and Illusion are Missing)
Rouge: Thief and Arcane Trickster are in ( Assasin is still missing)
Warlock: Fiend and Great Old one are in. (Archfey is missing)

Barbarian: Berserker and Totem Warrior (All Missing)
Bard: College of Lore, College of War (All Missing)
Sorceror: Draconic Bloodline, Wildmagic (All Missing)
Paladin: Oath of the Ancients, Oath of Devotion (All Missing)
Monk: Way of the Open Hand, Way of the Elements, Way of the Shadow (All Missing)

Also Paladin: Oath of Vengeance is missing.

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Originally Posted by Holokom
Well another thing you need to keep in mind is the target audience.

When you add 5 Subklasses to every class....and include all spells, the game gets a lot more complicated.

More Options to choose for new players that are not familiar with dnd, and they said they are their target... so jeah. dont expect more, and i honestly wouldnt want more.

They also stated that we would get all of the PBH content. Now I'm sure they will fall short. But the subclasses we got now are too bare bones for the Cleric and Wizard. Cleric : heal, blast, or trick. Wizard: blast or buff and attack. I don't expect everything, here's what I expect (hope) will be added from the PHB:

Wizard Specialists: Enchanter, Necromancer, Diviner, Illusionist.
Cleric Domains: War, Tempest, and I hope for Death (DMG).
Rogue: Assassin.
Paladin Oaths: Vengeance, Devotion, Ancients, and I hope for the Oath Breaker (DMG).
Sorcerer: Draconic Bloodline, Wild Magic
Bard Colleges: Lore, War.
Monk Traditions: Open Hand, Shadow.

As for content outside the PBH and DMG, I'm ok if they just let modders add it. But my wishlist is: War and Gravity Wizards, Scout and Swashbuckler Rogues, Hexblade and Celestial Warlocks, Gloomstalker Ranger, Cavalier and Samurai Fighters, Oath of Conquest Paladin, Drunken Master Monk, Divine Soul and Shadow Sorcerers, Battle Smith and Artillerist Artificers. As for Tasha's, those subclasses are way, way over powered. I wouldn't allow them in a campaign I was DMing., without some serious nerfing.

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I would much rather have another ACT, like Act 4, then worry about a few classes and races missing. Content over Race/Class, any day.

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Originally Posted by Tabuk
I would much rather have another ACT, like Act 4, then worry about a few classes and races missing. Content over Race/Class, any day.

Classes are part of the content IMO, and greater variety means greater replay-ability and options for varied parties even if using the same characters.

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Originally Posted by Tabuk
I would much rather have another ACT, like Act 4, then worry about a few classes and races missing. Content over Race/Class, any day.

I completely agree, the breadth and depth of game content is most important.

DnD started with just Fighter, Cleric & Wizard; with Thief added by the second printing. What made DnD interesting then was the very distinct nature of each class, leading to the need for a full party to tackle a typical DnD adventure; but that has been consistently diluted.

There are now so many classes, subclasses, races and other options for tailoring a character, that you might as well not have a class system at all.

In fact, I have always preferred games that allowed you to choose your development direction freely, and this also has the advantage that it removes the endless ( and pointless ) arguments about "balancing" between classes.

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Originally Posted by Holokom
Cleric: Life Domain, Light Domain, Trickery Domain. (Missing: Knowledge, Nature and Tempest Domain)

War and Death?

Hope Clerics get even more domains, there are many gods available that need fitting domains.

And I hope they get restricted by Deities so we won't have nonsensical combinations like a Light Domain for Shar.


Selune - Knowledge, Light
Lathander - Light, Life
Tyr - Order, War

Shar - Death, Trickery
Lolth - Trickery, War


etc.

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WELL, even BALDURS GATE 2, the PRIOR GAME of the series has more classes/kits. My point being it is still disappointing that there are so few options to choose from this <<<D^D game>>> (and it is different in so many Larian ways).
I dont care about <technicalities> like Pathfinder isnt D^D so its ok? or Pathfinder is a sequel its ok? Thats just an excuse for poor content inclusion. BG3 is VERY CLOSELY based on DOS2 so no excuse there. Its not a game built from scratch.
The graphics are great, class content is poor and looks to stay that way. Instead of having barrels, dipping, surfaces mechanics (stuff not really D^D) they couldn't of added some more interesting classes ? ? At least TONS more kits, not so hard to do. Add advantages/disadvantages.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Pathfinder is a completely different system. On classes and subclasses we have an actual chance to get if Larian gets closer to 5e (* means already in BG3. PHB = Player's Handbook, XGE = Xanathar's Guide to Everything, TCE = Tasha's Guide to Everything, SCAG = Sword Coast's Adventurer Guide, EGW = Explorer's Guide to Wildmount, DMG = Dungeon Master's Guide):

Wizard*-
- PHB: School of Abjuration*, School of Conjuration, School of Divination, School of Enchantment, School of Evocation*, School of Illusion, School of Necromancy, School of Transmutation
- XGE: School of War Magic
- TCE: Bladesinger, Order of Scrubes
- EGW (Wildmount stuff seems unlikely but will list regardless): School of Chronurgy, School of Graviturgy

Warlock*:
-Patrons
- PHB: Archfey, Fiend*, Great Old One*
- SCAG: Undying
- XGE: Hexblade, Celestial
- TCE: Genie, Fathomless
-Pact Boons
- PHB: Pact of the Chain*, Pact of the Blade, Pact of the Tome
- TCE: Pact of the Talisman

Sorcerer:
- PHB: Draconic Bloodline, Wild Magic
- XGE: Divine Soul, Shadow, Storm,
- TCE: Aberrant Mind, Clockwork Soul

Rogue*:
- PHB: Arcane Trickster*, Assassin, Thief*
- XGE: Inquisitive, Mastermind, Scout, Swashbuckler
- TCE: Soulknife, Phantom

Ranger*:
-TCE Optional Features (Worth Listing here because they change Ranger.): Favored Foe, Deft Explorer, Primal Awareness, Nature's Veil, Primal Companion (Beast Master)
- PHB: Beast Master*, Hunter*
- XGE: Gloom Stalker, Horizon Walker, Monster Slayer
- TCE: Fey Wanderer, Swarmkeeper

Paladin:
- PHB: Ancients, Devotion, Vengeance
- DMG: Oathbreaker
- SCAG: Crown
- XGE: Conquest, Redemption
- TCE: Glory, Watchers

Monk:
- PHB: Four Elements, Open Hand, Shadow
- SCAG: Long Death
- XGE: Drunken Master, Kensei, Sun Soul
- TCE: Astral Self, Mercy

Fighter*:
- PHB: Battle master*, Champion, Eldritch Knight*
- SCAG: Banneret
- XGE: Arcane Archer, Cavalier, Samurai
- TCE: Psi Warrior, Rune Knight
- EGW: Echo Knight

Druid*:
- PHB: Land*, Moon*
- XGE: Dreams, Shepherd
- TCE: Spores, Stars, Wildfire

Cleric*:
- PHB: Life*, Light*, Trickery*, Knowledge, Nature, Tempest, War
- DMG: Death
- SCAG: Arcana
- XGE: Forge, Grave
- TCE: Order, Peace, Twilight

Bard:
- PHB: Lore. Valor
- XGE: Glamour, Swords, Whispers
- TCE: Creation, Eloquence

Barbarian:
- PHB: Berserker, Totem Warrior
- SCAG: Battlerager
- XGE: Zealot, Stormherald, Ancestral Guardian
- TCE: Wild Magic, Beast

Artificer:
TCE: Alchemist, Armorer, Artillerist, Battle Smith

(Very Unlikely but listed on D&D Beyond so worth mentioning)
Bloodhunter:
- D&D Beyond: Order of the Ghostslayer, Order of the Lycan, Order of the Mutant, Order of the Profane Soul

Essentially that is every class (unless I missed one or two) that has the potential to be added to BG3. I would certainly hope that all of them get added (except maybe Bloodhunter, even though I love it, it is not considered "official" yet so hopefully it gets actually published at some point in an official book when it is fully balanced) so we get a complete D&D 5e experience where people can make whatever character they desire to make. Notably, most all of these classes were made with the Faerun setting in mind, especially those in XGE and SCAG but to a lesser extent TCE. So everything here would fit in BG3 lorewise. I do realize everything being added is a tall order and not that likely but a summoner can dream (atleast I'll get Conjuration Wizard).

Exactly. There is so much yet to come, even if we are only counting the other base classes and the subclasses spanning the PHB, SCAG, and XGE. Not to mention the myriad of races/spells to be implemented on top of all of those. It's a lot to take on, but if Larian does this right, it will make for a lot of replayability!

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
WELL, even BALDURS GATE 2, the PRIOR GAME of the series has more classes/kits. My point being it is still disappointing that there are so few options to choose from this <<<D^D game>>> (and it is different in so many Larian ways).
I dont care about <technicalities> like Pathfinder isnt D^D so its ok? or Pathfinder is a sequel its ok? Thats just an excuse for poor content inclusion. BG3 is VERY CLOSELY based on DOS2 so no excuse there. Its not a game built from scratch.
The graphics are great, class content is poor and looks to stay that way. Instead of having barrels, dipping, surfaces mechanics (stuff not really D^D) they couldn't of added some more interesting classes ? ? At least TONS more kits, not so hard to do. Add advantages/disadvantages.
My friend, I see you here, and I oft wonder why you stay around. You seem displeased with the game immensely, and I believe that it does not make you happy. Baldur's Gate 2 used a different system, as well. And, as is often toted, this product is in Early Access. Many classes and subclasses from the PHB have yet to be implemented, but Larian has said they will upon full release. If I'm calculating correctly, there will be 12 classes and 40 subclasses (Or kits as you call them) in the full game. While there are admittedly more in Pathfinder, they're including all of the base PHB 5e classes. In BG2, they used the classes from 2e, and in PF:WotR, they're using classes from Pathfinder. They're all based on different TTRPGs. BG3 isn't based on DOS2, it's based on BG3. While it borrows elements from DOS2, it's a different game. You're comparing apples to oranges to pears to plums here, my friend. You're right, it's not built from scratch. They're basing it on the latest version of DnD instead of the one made by an entirely different company 12 years ago.


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I bought EA thinking it will last roughly a year give or take a couple of months. But knowing what I know now, I’m surprised Larian opened up EA this early. I regret buying this early.

Combat is completely unbalanced. The UI is a mess. Many of the core classes and races are not implemented yet. Larian should have waited till this coming summer to launch EA.

I think we won’t see the official launch until mid 2022 at the earliest. I hope I’m wrong.

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[quote=Holokom]Well according to their Anwsers from Streams etc we get:

3 Acts of Gameplay Content, ATM we got an area thats roughly the first act. Underdark is second act, but we are missing out on some areas so its about the same.


Uh Where did you see that Underdark was Act 2? The entire EA is ACT I if im not mistaken........maybe review your statements?

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I bought EA thinking it will last roughly a year give or take a couple of months. But knowing what I know now, I’m surprised Larian opened up EA this early. I regret buying this early.

Combat is completely unbalanced. The UI is a mess. Many of the core classes and races are not implemented yet. Larian should have waited till this coming summer to launch EA.

I think we won’t see the official launch until mid 2022 at the earliest. I hope I’m wrong.
One of the reasons games have EA is to fund extended development. Without EA Larian would not have been able to expand their workforce or add all the content to the game they want to. Buying EA is the same as buying the finished game. Playing the EA is entirely your choice, and not doing so loses you nothing in terms of the final release. Even using low-end figures EA has brought in $30-40m dollars of funding to make BG3 the best it can be. I think Autumn 2022 is more likely, with a class added every 8-10 weeks, then multi-classing for 15-20 weeks, and maybe level 5 and the rest of Act 1 unlocked just before release to get data for final polish.

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Originally Posted by Elessaria666
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I bought EA thinking it will last roughly a year give or take a couple of months. But knowing what I know now, I’m surprised Larian opened up EA this early. I regret buying this early.

Combat is completely unbalanced. The UI is a mess. Many of the core classes and races are not implemented yet. Larian should have waited till this coming summer to launch EA.

I think we won’t see the official launch until mid 2022 at the earliest. I hope I’m wrong.
One of the reasons games have EA is to fund extended development. Without EA Larian would not have been able to expand their workforce or add all the content to the game they want to. Buying EA is the same as buying the finished game. Playing the EA is entirely your choice, and not doing so loses you nothing in terms of the final release. Even using low-end figures EA has brought in $30-40m dollars of funding to make BG3 the best it can be. I think Autumn 2022 is more likely, with a class added every 8-10 weeks, then multi-classing for 15-20 weeks, and maybe level 5 and the rest of Act 1 unlocked just before release to get data for final polish.

Oh I know that. But I will argue the longer a developer delays a game, the expectations rise sometimes to unattainable levels like say Cyberpunk.

I was just shocked how unbalanced this game is at this point in development. And it seems Larian isn’t swimming in funds or they wouldn’t have started EA this early.

And of course buying this early is my choice. I didn’t say I wasn’t going to buy it because I have buyers remorse. I meant I regret buying this early into EA when BG3 clearly has way more than a year before launch.

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