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Originally Posted by ash elemental
I've been suspicious of Gale ever since the first playthrough & the first dialogue with Shadowheart. Complimenting a priestess of Shar that she has shadows for eyes? And Shadowheart's response? This was the part that made me go 'Hmmm...' laugh

lol

Complimenting Shadowheart?! Outrageous! No one would ever do that to someone who thinks less of them each time they sneeze! He must be suspicious...

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Originally Posted by DiscountCanadian
Originally Posted by ash elemental
I've been suspicious of Gale ever since the first playthrough & the first dialogue with Shadowheart. Complimenting a priestess of Shar that she has shadows for eyes? And Shadowheart's response? This was the part that made me go 'Hmmm...' laugh

lol

Complimenting Shadowheart?! Outrageous! No one would ever do that to someone who thinks less of them each time they sneeze! He must be suspicious...
It was not about the fact that he was complimenting her, but about what he said: Shar is a goddess of darkness and dwells in the plane of shadows. wink
And that was during the initial dialogue, so you don't know that Shadowheart is a priestess of Shar, or much about her character at that point.

It could have been just a weird compliment, sure. Or maybe Gale uses detect thoughts or the tadpole on the party at this point.

Last edited by ash elemental; 31/03/21 05:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by DiscountCanadian
Originally Posted by ash elemental
I've been suspicious of Gale ever since the first playthrough & the first dialogue with Shadowheart. Complimenting a priestess of Shar that she has shadows for eyes? And Shadowheart's response? This was the part that made me go 'Hmmm...' laugh

lol

Complimenting Shadowheart?! Outrageous! No one would ever do that to someone who thinks less of them each time they sneeze! He must be suspicious...
It was not about the fact that he was complimenting her, but about what he said: Shar is a goddess of darkness and dwells in the plane of shadows. wink
And that was during the initial dialogue, so you don't know that Shadowheart is a priestess of Shar, or much about her character at that point.

It could have been just a weird compliment, sure. Or maybe Gale uses detect thoughts or the tadpole on the party at this point.

I merely jest. I would imagine it is simply an acute, if unintentionally accurate observation. When Shadowheart asks him about it, he replies "Merely, that if the eyes are the mirror to the soul, yours have dark curtains across the mirror. No offense taken, I hope." They then continue to banter in a possibly flirtatious way, so I think he was just showing off with a compliment. "Shadows for eyes; deep as the Darklake" seems to imply that one could get lost or drown in her beauty by looking into her dark-colored eyes. Gale does like to indulge in his wit and romanticism.

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It could be an observation or flirting. But it also could refer to the meaning behind this idiom, because Shadowheart's secrets are protected by shadow magic of sorts, since
she has had memories removed by Sharrans.

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Originally Posted by DiscountCanadian
Originally Posted by Shlamorel
I can’t box gale in.

In my first playthrough, he left my party because I refused to give him powerful magical artifacts without him fully detailing his scary and ominous situation. Our party is a team and we need communication. He got angry and left,

In my current playthrough, he’s a lot more tender but still secretive at first.

My point is I do think he has some very selfish tendencies, in line with narcissism. But he does open up which real narcissists never do unless they are in a crisis.

In a nutshell, I appreciate that gale eventually opens up about the truth but I think his demands for your blind trust in a party setting make him very self-centered. He’s a great character but romantically I could never be into him, and in real life, I’d not align with him in a life or death journey to save ourselves.

Just to poke at little, could this not be considered a crisis?
He is, after all, under constant threat of losing control over the Netherese orb and leveling a city-sized area on the Sword Coast while ALSO dealing with a tadpole that could, at any time, spontaneously change him into a Mind Flayer. Personally speaking, I think that very much defines a crisis.

I don't think he is a narcissist because he is able to handle criticism (he criticizes himself a fair bit) and will admit when he has felt he's done something wrong. Honest reflection and self-critique aren't things you find in narcissists. Now, do his actions foretell something sinister? Hard to say, though I will give him the benefit of doubt. He is guarded and we aren't able to ascertain much of his motivations, that much is certain. That said, I don't believe that is enough to deem him a sinister figure just yet, but I will agree that it would be best to be wary. He is a bit of an unknown factor, which could be good or bad, but lack of clarity/understanding tends to provoke the worst fears in people, whether it is deserved or not.

Touche, though I meant an existential crisis and should have been specific. He seems pretty stable in his sense of self.

Not responding @ you but to OP in general: I think of Gale kinda like an egocentric teenage boy. He thinks about the gravity of his situation inhow it affects him only, really. I dont have a word for it but I wouldn't call it narcissism. Hes egocenttric but not on a grandiose or delusional level (asssuming what he's shared with us is true, which seems to be so until the story says otherwise). And he would only be ascumbag imo if he intentionally withheld information from you because he thought if he told you you wouldn't sleep with him.

He doesn't seem unaware of these things. it's just more like he cares only about how his tratgedy affects him.

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Originally Posted by Shlamorel
Originally Posted by DiscountCanadian
Just to poke at little, could this not be considered a crisis?
He is, after all, under constant threat of losing control over the Netherese orb and leveling a city-sized area on the Sword Coast while ALSO dealing with a tadpole that could, at any time, spontaneously change him into a Mind Flayer. Personally speaking, I think that very much defines a crisis.

I don't think he is a narcissist because he is able to handle criticism (he criticizes himself a fair bit) and will admit when he has felt he's done something wrong. Honest reflection and self-critique aren't things you find in narcissists. Now, do his actions foretell something sinister? Hard to say, though I will give him the benefit of doubt. He is guarded and we aren't able to ascertain much of his motivations, that much is certain. That said, I don't believe that is enough to deem him a sinister figure just yet, but I will agree that it would be best to be wary. He is a bit of an unknown factor, which could be good or bad, but lack of clarity/understanding tends to provoke the worst fears in people, whether it is deserved or not.

Touche, though I meant an existential crisis and should have been specific. He seems pretty stable in his sense of self.

Not responding @ you but to OP in general: I think of Gale kinda like an egocentric teenage boy. He thinks about the gravity of his situation in how it affects him only, really. I don't have a word for it but I wouldn't call it narcissism. He's egocentric but not on a grandiose or delusional level (assuming what he's shared with us is true, which seems to be so until the story says otherwise). And he would only be a scumbag imo if he intentionally withheld information from you because he thought if he told you you wouldn't sleep with him.

He doesn't seem unaware of these things. it's just more like he cares only about how his tragedy affects him.

Let's think about what he has told us about himself so far:
he was a magical prodigy at a very young age, likely became an archmage likely in his late teens to early twenties, and got the attention of the goddess of magic. As I have said, he suffers from his past. His prodigal abilities likely isolated him from a normal life where he could learn to think about others more, gained immense power in a very short period of time (which might take other wizards decades or longer to accomplish), and had a very intimate relationship with a goddess. I can understand why he might be so absorbed in himself. You aren't treated the same when you are gifted and thus miss out on key socializing experiences that would be needed for proper development. That isn't to say Gale doesn't have proper social skills, but those might have come much later in his life, which might mean his ability to think beyond himself might be less mature. And just thinking about how grandiose his life has been, it would be hard for any of us not to get so absorbed in our own plight were we in his position. He became a powerful archmage in Waterdeep with enough wealth to keep his condition under control up until now and was a Chosen of Mystra. On top of that, when he has a ticking bomb that could wipe out his home city, that too would make the plights of others seem much less significant.


If I may provide a counter, instead of not telling Tav about his condition because he thought Tav wouldn't sleep with him if they knew, what if Gale told Tav after because he felt he could finally open up and or trust them with that information? That does not justify him telling Tav after the fact by any means, but I think that plays into his social short-comings after (what I would guess) being an isolated genius for most of his life and his emotional wounds caused by mistakes of a younger self.

Last edited by DiscountCanadian; 31/03/21 05:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
For me, everything goes off the rails character-wise at the party. The first time I actually managed to trigger his romance, I was really enjoying it until this one-two-three punch:

1) After some minor flirtation and stalling the PC romantically for days, on the night of the party Gale decides to go from 0-60mph in terms of physical intimacy, even if the PC has explicitly indicated that they want to take things slower. It's either sex or the end of the romance.

2) The next morning he reveals that he's still-maybe-probably in love with someone else. A goddess, no less. AND he hid this from the PC because he knew it might be a problem and he wanted that sweet booty.

3) Immediately afterwards, he reveals that he's a walking high-yield explosive and a serious danger to everyone around him, especially if those people are ignorant of his explosiveness. Which everyone basically has been until that moment.

One of these things? Not so bad, I can work with it. Two of them? Eh... sketchy, but I can make allowances. All three? Gale has crossed a line in the sand for me. YMMV, of course.

Interesting discussion. I've never been able to go very far in the romance because he annoys me so much that I end up either starting a new game or telling him to leave. (which is difficult to do -- I was only able to do it by reading his mind and telling him I did)

I think he's a very modern, very normal type of evil. He's someone who is willing to do terrible things while telling himself he's a good person. While we're all bathing in the Chonthar, this Dude is swimming in de Nile. As @Dez said he's almost too real to life. I think he must be based on someone's ex. (or at least I hope they are an ex and not a current)

Why I really dislike him (but agree he's well written)

1. The approvals come too quickly and too easily -- this is someone buttering me up

2. The voice actor is really, really good at conveying insincerity. His statement are almost but not quite believable. I know all the voice actors are performing but this actor somehow broadcasts that his statements are performative.

3. The "I've come to trust you" conversation is the nail in the coffin. "I've come to trust you, now I need you to trust me" Okay, Gale, asking right after you made dinner is a level of manipulation I'm willing accept. But this?! Making me feel guilty if I refuse issue to blind promise? Where is my the option to say:
Quote
"If you truly trusted me you would divulge any information without trying to extracting a blind promise. 'Trust' means trusting me with your secrets -- come talk to me again when you do, truly, trust me"
And if you do go along with then emotional coercion and agree he doubles down -- if I don't do what Gale wants I will no longer be the lawful good hero he is building me up to be. Now I somehow agree with that my sense of worth is connected to some image of me that he controls.

Fuck you Gale. Screw your shot gun wedding promises. Try plying your seductions on someone a bit more gullible. I'll be the one deciding if I'm living up to my own standards thank-you-very-much.

I'll eventually play through to get the story but probably only after full release.

On @Aishaddai 's musings --

my best guess is that he is lying about his motivations in finding the orb in the first place. I think it's an Icarus story. Mystra is second only to Shar in terms of raw power. If an ambitious young man becomes a chosen in his teens how he fly any higher than that? And the answer is to tap into the power of the Netherese arcanists. And the only way to do that is:

a. Time travel
b. Use the shadow weave

And Mystra only lets people use the time travel spell if they pledge not to alter the past so that's out. So if Gale wants more power he's going to have to find a brand new lover. Enter Shar and the shadow weave. Now it's never been clear if the Shadow Weave is a copy of Mystrl's weave, with spells that go up to level 12, or a dark reflection of Mystra's weave but I'm going with option (a), a potentially more powerful weave; the shadow weave is a copy of weave 1.0, the one that Karsus used to become a god for a few minutes.

Mystra didn't leave him, Gale left her for Shar because his ambitions were as boundless as Karsus' own. Now we don't know what the rules for the shadow weave are in 5th edition but in 3rd anyone who used the shadow weave would lose 2 wisdom points and these could only restored by a cleric of Shar. This could explain Gale's flirty comments when first meeting Shadowheart -- she could have the power to restore some of what he has lost. Perhaps Shar sent him instructions to find someone with eyes like SH.

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@KillerRabbit I wish bg3 was more fantastical and adventurous. Talking about the companions feels like I'm watching Jerry Springer drama from back in the day lol. Bg3 feels depressingly too grounded. If you are going to be grounded at least be like Conan the Barbarian or Sword and the Sorcerer. Oh well.

I imagine Shar would make a deal with Gale to strike a blow against Mystra. To make a weave requires too much divine essence so I imagine she wants the one already fully functional to restore what she lost and take what was from Selune to add to her own. In exchange, Gale gets more power and possibly a chance at entrance to Godhood. I'd laugh if Gale does all the work and Ao says no and smites the day lights out of him. Then Shar shrug's and just walks away. Lmao.

All speculation of course.

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I wonder if Gale's origin isn't actually connected to the main story in a major way:
Gale carries a netherese orb in his chest and it was netherese magic which was used to change the tadpoles.

So here is another guess (though I'd consider it very unlikely): his story is a fluke and Gale is
the other Shar worshipper the journal (currently due to a bug) mentions. Perhaps the orb was the source of magic that was used on the tadpoles.

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@ash elemental You reminded me of the fact that some of the netherese mages survived canonically. Maybe he is one of them or made a deal with one to get ahead in wizard elementary school lol. Gale you fraud haha.

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They survived in various ways. One became a lich and many others survived by being warped into the Shadowfell, only to reemerge in the late 14th century DR and attempt to recreate the Nethril Empire in the far north of Faerun. You can read more on that, but I would temper my speculations just a tad about Gale lol

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About Gale's romantic motivations:

Originally Posted by DiscountCanadian
If I may provide a counter, instead of not telling Tav about his condition because he thought Tav wouldn't sleep with him if they knew, what if Gale told Tav after because he felt he could finally open up and or trust them with that information?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here - he tells Tav exactly why he didn't open up before their night together, and it wasn't because of trust. Are you saying he's lying, or is this a 'What if?' rewrite of his motivations?

Note that he's perfectly willing to trust a non-romanced (or ex-romanced, if you deny him sexy times) Tav without sleeping with them.

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Originally Posted by DiscountCanadian
They survived in various ways. One became a lich and many others survived by being warped into the Shadowfell, only to reemerge in the late 14th century DR and attempt to recreate the Nethril Empire in the far north of Faerun. You can read more on that, but I would temper my speculations just a tad about Gale lol

Oh I know all about it. I was joking around. I learned all about it long time ago when I heard a Lich ElderBrain was a thing. That lead me to Mindflayer mages which lead me too the netherese mages I was referring to specifically. It is quite a topic. Not all netherese mages went the same way and some are still unaccounted-for and probably passed the knowledge on or became secluded Lichs.

If there was going to be a Mindflayer civil war, I'd say that would probably not so good for Faerun if they got involved.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
About Gale's romantic motivations:

Originally Posted by DiscountCanadian
If I may provide a counter, instead of not telling Tav about his condition because he thought Tav wouldn't sleep with him if they knew, what if Gale told Tav after because he felt he could finally open up and or trust them with that information?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here - he tells Tav exactly why he didn't open up before their night together, and it wasn't because of trust. Are you saying he's lying, or is this a 'What if?' rewrite of his motivations?

Note that he's perfectly willing to trust a non-romanced (or ex-romanced, if you deny him sexy times) Tav without sleeping with them.

It seems my ignorance is showing. After more digging, I did find a video that shows the offending lines in question and I now have a better understanding of the situation. That certainly sours my view of him, but I will have to think about it further. Habit twists my arm into trying to dissect as much as I can to better understand a character from as many angles as possible (being an English/Lit. major and whatnot). My suggestion came from a flawed understanding of what was there, and that came back to bite me in the ass (should have seen it coming). Perhaps my own romantic side/empathy is making it harder for me to see what needs to be seen, but we still have a whole story ahead of us yet.

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Originally Posted by DiscountCanadian
... we still have a whole story ahead of us yet.

True, and I'm hoping against hope that there will be a way to start (or restart) Gale's romance later in the game, because I still like the guy and find him interesting and would like to see where a romance goes. I'm just not willing to follow the romance where it goes currently.

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Well, there is also the possiblity that Gale is not lying, but neither is he telling the truth because he doesn't know it, which is that:

his lover Mystra was actually Absolute masquarading as her. The Absolute bamboozled him to obtain the netherese orb, which was then used to modify the tadpoles. Gale wakes up on the ship with the other characters and assumes he was infected then, but he could have been infected much earlier, just not aware of it like the other true souls. Might be why he has better mental shields & control of his tadpole, as he has been carrying it around much longer.

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