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Having completed a couple play throughs, I think Larian is on the right track with the game. Granted I hate the fact that eating for healing is a thing or that enemies instantly heal out of combat. I never played the DOS games, so I don’t know how much course correcting Larian does based on community feedback. I think it is important that this feedback keeps hitting the various forums Larian monitors. Larian is likely to change certain things if they are clearly unpopular. Reading through the forums over the last several days, it does seem like there is some consensus for parring down some of the heavier arcade elements of the game in favor of a stricter adherence to 5e mechanics. At the end of the day, as a community, we have to have realistic expectations. This game is almost certainly based on a highly modified version of their DOS2 engine, and they have a certain formula to building their games. I think he final version of the game will actually be adapted in a way that we will be pleasantly surprised with, but we have to accept that many core elements will not change. I am still enjoying playing EA, but I think we need to be patient with Larian.

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Originally Posted by JJRX5
Having completed a couple play throughs, I think Larian is on the right track with the game. Granted I hate the fact that eating for healing is a thing or that enemies instantly heal out of combat. I never played the DOS games, so I don’t know how much course correcting Larian does based on community feedback. I think it is important that this feedback keeps hitting the various forums Larian monitors. Larian is likely to change certain things if they are clearly unpopular. Reading through the forums over the last several days, it does seem like there is some consensus for parring down some of the heavier arcade elements of the game in favor of a stricter adherence to 5e mechanics. At the end of the day, as a community, we have to have realistic expectations. This game is almost certainly based on a highly modified version of their DOS2 engine, and they have a certain formula to building their games. I think he final version of the game will actually be adapted in a way that we will be pleasantly surprised with, but we have to accept that many core elements will not change. I am still enjoying playing EA, but I think we need to be patient with Larian.

For me, with the direction that Larian has gone, and is hellbent on continuing, I doubt I'll even attempt to play the game in full after release if the combat remains centered around height/broken stealth/push/elemental surfaces unless someone puts a mod together to remedy the DOS tropes.

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Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
For me, with the direction that Larian has gone, and is hellbent on continuing, I doubt I'll even attempt to play the game in full after release if the combat remains centered around height/broken stealth/push/elemental surfaces unless someone puts a mod together to remedy the DOS tropes.

There's already mods that fix this stuff so that mod isn't even a case of when, it's a case of when will it be polished enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Rack
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
For me, with the direction that Larian has gone, and is hellbent on continuing, I doubt I'll even attempt to play the game in full after release if the combat remains centered around height/broken stealth/push/elemental surfaces unless someone puts a mod together to remedy the DOS tropes.

There's already mods that fix this stuff so that mod isn't even a case of when, it's a case of when will it be polished enough for you?
Yet to see a mod that fixes:

  • Jump/disengage spam
  • Height giving 'Advantage'
  • Fire/ice/poison AOE surface spam
  • Push spam
  • Barralmancy
  • Backstab
  • Stealth abuse
  • Dipping spam
  • Monster stat/ability deviation
  • Lack of readied action


It's not about "polish" it's about Larian deciding to start with DOS as a framework to try and create a 5E DnD game, being confused by 5E and deciding to just cram more DOS mechanics into the game rather than try to actually adapt 5E like Swen stated Larian was going to do when they announced BG3.

Last edited by Grudgebearer; 04/04/21 10:08 PM.
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Field effect damage should definitely require some type of saving throw to either reduce damage or even better, avoid it entirely due to how common it is just like the status effect fields. Barrel explosions should require a saving throw to halve damage too.

It's pretty insane that there's anything that can inflict unavoidable damage with no way to reduce or dodge them at such low levels, which is a big part of the reason why these kinds of mechanics are seen as completely overpowering the source mechanics in importance.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 05/04/21 12:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Field effect damage should definitely require some type of saving throw to either reduce damage or even better, avoid it entirely due to how common it is just like the status effect fields. Barrel explosions should require a saving throw to halve damage too.

It's pretty insane that there's anything that can inflict unavoidable damage with no way to reduce or dodge them at such low levels, which is a big part of the reason why these kinds of mechanics are seen as completely overpowering the source mechanics in importance.

You know, in my original post, I mentioned hoping that modders would remove as much of the Larian cheese as possible if Larian insists on allowing this invasive species to destroy the DnD ecosystem, well, this little mod: Faerie Fire - No Unavoidable Damage does something small but specific. It removes the guaranteed damage from those surfaces and optionally allows you to roll a Dex saving throw to avoid or take 1D8 fire damage when you start your turn standing on the surface effect. It fixes just this one extremely unfair Larian homebrew, but I hope others will carry on and remove the rest.

Now, I haven't installed any mods yet, so I can't vouch for this one, but no one has reported any bugs so far.

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Aaaah the "Just make a mod" and everything will be peachy excuse.

Id rather the multi million dollar game company and its 300 developers world wide deal with these issues first.

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Aaaah the "Just make a mod" and everything will be peachy excuse.

Id rather the multi million dollar game company and its 300 developers world wide deal with these issues first.
I don't think it's too much to ask of them to make a D&D raw mode or difficulty setting.

If they want to please both D&D players and the DOS crowd who want silly OP gamey stuff, that's the only way really.

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If they *DO* add options in the ruleset system and stuff like that on release... wow. I will cry actual tears of joy, no joke.

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Originally Posted by andreasrylander
If they *DO* add options in the ruleset system and stuff like that on release... wow. I will cry actual tears of joy, no joke.

I wouldn't hold out too much hope for that, given that even the level design centered around maximizing barrelmancy/surface effects.

Zhentarim hideout with it's leaking barrels of oil strewn about, with burning torches feet away from causing utter oblivion, is about as moronically DOS as it gets.

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Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
If they *DO* add options in the ruleset system and stuff like that on release... wow. I will cry actual tears of joy, no joke.

I wouldn't hold out too much hope for that, given that even the level design centered around maximizing barrelmancy/surface effects.

Zhentarim hideout with it's leaking barrels of oil strewn about, with burning torches feet away from causing utter oblivion, is about as moronically DOS as it gets.

This place makes sense when it comes to the amount of barrels and other explosives. When we get there, they prepare to blow up the entire cave to obliterate the evidence of their presence.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
If they *DO* add options in the ruleset system and stuff like that on release... wow. I will cry actual tears of joy, no joke.

I wouldn't hold out too much hope for that, given that even the level design centered around maximizing barrelmancy/surface effects.

Zhentarim hideout with it's leaking barrels of oil strewn about, with burning torches feet away from causing utter oblivion, is about as moronically DOS as it gets.

This place makes sense when it comes to the amount of barrels and other explosives. When we get there, they prepare to blow up the entire cave to obliterate the evidence of their presence.
The even bigger problem with that place is that...

...you can initiate combat on high ground by pushing/thunderwaving the boss and her lackeys down, destroy the ladders and wipe out everyone with ranged weapons without ever being at any kind of risk against superior numbers because of the advantage/disadvantage swing. They will all just obediently stand down there waiting to die.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
If they *DO* add options in the ruleset system and stuff like that on release... wow. I will cry actual tears of joy, no joke.

I wouldn't hold out too much hope for that, given that even the level design centered around maximizing barrelmancy/surface effects.

Zhentarim hideout with it's leaking barrels of oil strewn about, with burning torches feet away from causing utter oblivion, is about as moronically DOS as it gets.

This place makes sense when it comes to the amount of barrels and other explosives. When we get there, they prepare to blow up the entire cave to obliterate the evidence of their presence.
The even bigger problem with that place is that...

...you can initiate combat on high ground by pushing/thunderwaving the boss and her lackeys down, destroy the ladders and wipe out everyone with ranged weapons without ever being at any kind of risk against superior numbers because of the advantage/disadvantage swing. They will all just obediently stand down there waiting to die.

Yeah, the combat AI itself is a problem. The AI does all kind of weird things and things in incorrect sequence.

DOS2 had a combat AI update at some point to a Larian-proclaimed deadlier AI, which I expect to happen with BG3 at some point. The AI right now is very easy to manipulate and does not account for a number of things.

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Originally Posted by gaymer
Yeah, the combat AI itself is a problem. The AI does all kind of weird things and things in incorrect sequence.

DOS2 had a combat AI update at some point to a Larian-proclaimed deadlier AI, which I expect to happen with BG3 at some point. The AI right now is very easy to manipulate and does not account for a number of things.
The AI seems to now very often get stuck and unable to do anything. If their path is blocked they can't do anything. The downside of complex vertical maps where you can block paths with indestructible Flaming Spheres and destroy ladders to be unreachable.

Likewise Stealth is completely broken because the AI doesn't move towards your last known location and start rolling Perception checks. You shouldn't be able to hide in plain sight after attacking anyway and the vision cones are way too short and narrow. And only Rogues should be able to attack > move behind terrain > hide on the same turn. Hide as a bonus action for everyone really robs Rogues, can't understand why they change the rules like that. 5e already has an answer: multiclass into Rogue on your Fighter if you want to get that Bonus sneaking.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by gaymer
Yeah, the combat AI itself is a problem. The AI does all kind of weird things and things in incorrect sequence.

DOS2 had a combat AI update at some point to a Larian-proclaimed deadlier AI, which I expect to happen with BG3 at some point. The AI right now is very easy to manipulate and does not account for a number of things.
The AI seems to now very often get stuck and unable to do anything. If their path is blocked they can't do anything. The downside of complex vertical maps where you can block paths with indestructible Flaming Spheres and destroy ladders to be unreachable.

Likewise Stealth is completely broken because the AI doesn't move towards your last known location and start rolling Perception checks. You shouldn't be able to hide in plain sight after attacking anyway and the vision cones are way too short and narrow. And only Rogues should be able to attack > move behind terrain > hide on the same turn. Hide as a bonus action for everyone really robs Rogues, can't understand why they change the rules like that. 5e already has an answer: multiclass into Rogue on your Fighter if you want to get that Bonus sneaking.

In DoS2 at the highest difficulty level, the game had a much better AI, so there is a high chance that it will work like this in BG3

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by gaymer
Yeah, the combat AI itself is a problem. The AI does all kind of weird things and things in incorrect sequence.

DOS2 had a combat AI update at some point to a Larian-proclaimed deadlier AI, which I expect to happen with BG3 at some point. The AI right now is very easy to manipulate and does not account for a number of things.
The AI seems to now very often get stuck and unable to do anything. If their path is blocked they can't do anything. The downside of complex vertical maps where you can block paths with indestructible Flaming Spheres and destroy ladders to be unreachable.

Likewise Stealth is completely broken because the AI doesn't move towards your last known location and start rolling Perception checks. You shouldn't be able to hide in plain sight after attacking anyway and the vision cones are way too short and narrow. And only Rogues should be able to attack > move behind terrain > hide on the same turn. Hide as a bonus action for everyone really robs Rogues, can't understand why they change the rules like that. 5e already has an answer: multiclass into Rogue on your Fighter if you want to get that Bonus sneaking.

In DoS2 at the highest difficulty level, the game had a much better AI, so there is a high chance that it will work like this in BG3
But those of us who hate Larian's cheesy gimmicks will have no choice but to play at a lower difficulty level, so this won't help us.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by gaymer
Yeah, the combat AI itself is a problem. The AI does all kind of weird things and things in incorrect sequence.

DOS2 had a combat AI update at some point to a Larian-proclaimed deadlier AI, which I expect to happen with BG3 at some point. The AI right now is very easy to manipulate and does not account for a number of things.
The AI seems to now very often get stuck and unable to do anything. If their path is blocked they can't do anything. The downside of complex vertical maps where you can block paths with indestructible Flaming Spheres and destroy ladders to be unreachable.

Likewise Stealth is completely broken because the AI doesn't move towards your last known location and start rolling Perception checks. You shouldn't be able to hide in plain sight after attacking anyway and the vision cones are way too short and narrow. And only Rogues should be able to attack > move behind terrain > hide on the same turn. Hide as a bonus action for everyone really robs Rogues, can't understand why they change the rules like that. 5e already has an answer: multiclass into Rogue on your Fighter if you want to get that Bonus sneaking.

In DoS2 at the highest difficulty level, the game had a much better AI, so there is a high chance that it will work like this in BG3
Shouldn't the AI be smart at every difficulty level? Just lower the amount of enemies and their stats on easier difficulties.

I can't see how murdering an AI that doesn't know what to do is rewarding at any difficulty.

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