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Originally Posted by Sordak
well ive made a pretty lenghty post on how id figure id come to a solution on this.
but the subsequent replies in the thread are just 7 pages of these three things:

1. demanding to remove "silly" things opposed to "gritty and realistic" things while failing to define what these are
2. demanding to return to RAW, posts clearly made by people that dont know RAW 5e and how it is too barebones to be a video game
3. congratulating each other on beeing upset about it


and man one thing i just cannot leave uncommented.
5e RAW is a good tactical game! hahahha oh dios mio!

You cannot even flank in 5e RAW, you cant do it!
you cannot flank, you cannot charge you cannot distract an enemy.
None of these thigns are possible in RAW outside of feats (which are not in the standard RAW mind you) or class features.
5e is a TERRIBLE tactical combat game.

You can distract an ennemy with the help action

(+you can dodge, you can "ready", you can grab, you can prone target,... Nothing of this is possible in BG3).

Looks to me that D&D could lead to a VERY GOOD tactical video game. BG3 is not far from being a very good tactical game with WAY MORE possibilities than in any other games, thanks to D&D + Larian's imagination.

Balancing their homebrew rules would give us all D&D possibilities in addition of theirs - verticality, explosions, dipping etc...

The only thing that won't ever happen is the cover mechanic and to be honnest, I wouldn't missed it if the whole game wasn't only balanced arround their limited and sometimes WTF custom mechanics.

But I'm more a tactical TB game player that know D&D's rules than a D&D TT player.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 18/04/21 10:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sordak
well ive made a pretty lenghty post on how id figure id come to a solution on this.
but the subsequent replies in the thread are just 7 pages of these three things:

1. demanding to remove "silly" things opposed to "gritty and realistic" things while failing to define what these are
2. demanding to return to RAW, posts clearly made by people that dont know RAW 5e and how it is too barebones to be a video game
3. congratulating each other on beeing upset about it


and man one thing i just cannot leave uncommented.
5e RAW is a good tactical game! hahahha oh dios mio!

You cannot even flank in 5e RAW, you cant do it!
you cannot flank, you cannot charge you cannot distract an enemy.
None of these thigns are possible in RAW outside of feats (which are not in the standard RAW mind you) or class features.
5e is a TERRIBLE tactical combat game.

Hey, I actually did reply to your inquiry about defining cheese purely from a game balance standpoint, and then you conveniently went and ignored me after I categorized everything into ‘optional’ and ‘core mechanic’, while going after everyone else arguing from a direct DnD comparison standpoint.

I would not be too quick to think that people are *actually* arguing above all that 5E is a good tactical game. Nothing I’ve seen in these posts really seems like that’s what they’re trying to argue unless you’re really stretching it.

The real point that I’ve come to understand is that most of the grievances center around how Larian didn’t really make it better, their apparent solution was to replace it with a system that’s even more fundamentally broken than what was already there. Stuff like shoves having 100% successful rate while in stealth and the huge emphasis on free advantage makes everything feel like they’re deliberately designed to make engaging with the base mechanics feel as awful as possible.

There’s always several different levels of nuance to unpack here. Like, people typically love homebrew within reason. None of this is even remotely within any reason. They’ve transformed the game into an adventure of extremes.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 18/04/21 10:27 AM.
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>Nothing of this effect is possible in bG3
see my previous post, i want all of that stuff in, especialy grappling.
But saying things like 5 foot step makes it less tactical when editions that were clearly more tactical than 5e did these thigns is ridiculous, the problem is how to handle it, or more correctly to not copy the MORE tactical approach to opportunity attacks that other editions had

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Personally, I don't mind a little homebrew at all but most of Larian's homebrew is extremely gamebreaking. Thief is just borked in general.

  • Everyone getting use item, disengage and hide as a bonus action. Completely breaks the point of going Rogue or Thief, plus game balance action economy.
  • Scrolls used by any class. Another jab at Thief's class feature of using any magical item or implement (this includes scrolls) regardless of class.
  • Thief getting a second bonus action. To compensate the class by letting everyone use their features, they can now get a second off hand attack. But wait, off hand attacks still get full bonuses without any feats. So, 3 full attacks and Sneak Attack bonus (easily procc'd just by being behind) where a fighter using a greatsword just chills at 1.
  • Second Story Work just being fall damage resistance. No jump distance or anything. I get that there is no climbing (there should be) but the obvious bonus that WOULD work is right in its description but nope.
  • Why cant I sneak attack off thrown weapons like daggers or on bonus attacks? It should just auto proc when applicable. If you miss the sneak attack then you are SOL where as RAW you could get it on any attack action once a turn.


And thats just on Thiefs. Not to mention problems with the other classes. Namely Wizards. Chief problem is that they can learn ANY spell with a scroll, regardless of it being in their class spell list. Healing word after you Fire Bolt? Check. On that note, using 2 spells requiring spell slots in a turn is a big no no and a horrible balance issue. Namely Misty Step plus any other powerful spell (think Misty Step + Fireball shenanigans). I guess that last point is a bit moot seeing as playing this game is like playing turn based Mario, with everyone bunny hopping around everywhere....


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You cannot even flank in 5e RAW, you cant do it!
you cannot flank, you cannot charge you cannot distract an enemy.
None of these thigns are possible in RAW outside of feats (which are not in the standard RAW mind you) or class features.
5e is a TERRIBLE tactical combat game.

So uhhh, flanking is a provided optional rule in the DMG. The Help action can be taken to give an ally advantage on an attack. The description upon doing this is that you distract the enemy. You wanna talk about knowing RAW but clearly haven't read all the source books. Feats may be "optional" but I challenge you to find the one DM that doesn't allow them. Adventurer's League allows it, and that's the official DnD League.

Last edited by Nimja1; 09/05/21 03:44 AM.
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If a DM didn't allow feats, I'd walk.

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Originally Posted by footface
If a DM didn't allow feats, I'd walk.
I left a campaign after the DM told us the lucky feat was banned because of our halfling using lucky. The DM wanted to consider lucky unfair for combat.

Every encounter in the campaign was deadly and we had been barely scraping by. (Had been losing 1 character per session, the DM rolled all Death Saving Throws behind the screen). We also weren't allowed to use the Help action because that would be "the easy way out".

Banning lucky broke my patience.

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Sounds like a garbage DM all around.

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If I was still DMing the only thing I'd ban, is some of the broken sub-classes from Tasha's and Wildemount.

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There are no broken subclasses.

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while shoving is extremely strong right now, its comes down more to the IA than the mechanics:

If enemy start shoving you as well, such as the goblin priestess, battle become extremely hard . This may be enabled on harder difficulty setting or later in the adventure. Maybe they wanted an easier start with ''dumb'' enemies , goblin being traditionally low int, and would make smarter enemy use the shove mechanics more liberally.

Second, the enemy position badly , making shove easy to land. If enemy moved smarted the mechanics wouldn't be nearly so overpowered. This is definitly a decision of game design to make the game not too hard and enable use of the mechanics (its fun to drop goblin off a cliff).


Overall, I think the mechanics is nice, and will be adjusted later in the adventure / in other difficulty mode.

However, if its stay as it is, its definitly too strong imo, its an instantkill button in most cases.

Last edited by Hachina; 10/05/21 05:32 PM.

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Originally Posted by Hachina
while shoving is extremely strong right now, its comes down more to the IA than the mechanics:

If enemy start shoving you as well, such as the goblin priestess, battle become extremely hard . This may be enabled on harder difficulty setting or later in the adventure. Maybe they wanted an easier start with ''dumb'' enemies , goblin being traditionally low int, and would make smarter enemy use the shove mechanics more liberally.

Second, the enemy position badly , making shove easy to land. If enemy moved smarted the mechanics wouldn't be nearly so overpowered. This is definitly a decision of game design to make the game not too hard and enable use of the mechanics (its fun to drop goblin off a cliff).


Overall, I think the mechanics is nice, and will be adjusted later in the adventure / in other difficulty mode.

However, if its stay as it is, its definitly too strong imo, its an instantkill button in most cases.

There's literally nothing from Larian that indicates they have any inclination of changing the mechanics from their current state, quite the opposite given the statements they made in the panel from hell 2.

None of us should hold our breath for a final release of BG3 that isn't inundated with DOS mechanics, and Larian's game-breaking homebrew rule changes.

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agreed, the core mechanics of the combat as based around jumping/shoving/etc. There's no way they're going to just remove those things. The only possibility is to allow difficulty settings to remove the reliance on those features players don't like. I personally hate the constant jumping, so I'd like to lower the difficulty to the point where it's still fun to play without jumping at all

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Originally Posted by Ankou
There are no broken subclasses.

Oh please, Peace Domain Cleric, Twilight Domain Cleric, and the Chronurgy Magic Wizard are way way op.

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Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
None of us should hold our breath for a final release of BG3 that isn't inundated with DOS mechanics, and Larian's game-breaking homebrew rule changes.

QFT

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Originally Posted by Merlex
Originally Posted by Ankou
There are no broken subclasses.

Oh please, Peace Domain Cleric, Twilight Domain Cleric, and the Chronurgy Magic Wizard are way way op.

They are strong but not OP? Nothing listed in them are gamebreaking or make any other subclass irrelevant, they are just different with consistently strong abilities and flavor.

Peace Domain gets a skill proficiency, a d4 buff to the party as a class feature, a channel divinity that helps heal allies, enabling of a tank to take hits, wuisdom mod to cantrips, and bettering the earlier buff.

Twilight Domain gets darkvision, the ability to give others darkvision, proficiency in martial weapons and heavy armor, advantage on initiatives for one creature, an aura with temp hp or mental effects, flying only in darkness, Extra damage on melee strikes once per turn, and giving of half cover when in aura.

Chronurgy Wizard gets a slightly weaker version of lucky, better initiative, a version of hold creature that is lost on damage, a single spell mote a short rest, and their ultimate level 14 ability allows them to fix a result at the cost of being much closer to dying outright and now being worse at everything cause exhaustion.

Overall they are not crazy OP in any way? Chronurgy gets some similar stuff to divination in a different flavor with being able to manipulate a dice result, and its first feature is already something in the game with the lucky feat and halflings. Twilight domain has a cool aura but most clerics get something big, and its role seems to be a little more selfish than other clerics even with the aura. On the other end, Peace Domain is selfless and is based around your party being cooperative and peaceful, but honestly coupld be broken really easily by party conflicts or someone being controlled/out of control. They are all strong and on the upper end of dnd 5e power, but they seem in line with everything else to me and just fill their roles nicely. Even then, I like to pick classes based on theming and not so much power.

Besides, most subclasses can become OP in the right hands or with the right strategizing from a party. A conjuration wizard can genuinely fuck everything up with his level 2 Minor Conjuration if he is creative enough, and a Life Cleric can ensure no body int eh party has a chance to die to damage. Its all in how one uses them.

Last edited by CJMPinger; 11/05/21 07:52 PM.
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It would really be a dumb decision not to remove/rework "some" cheese.

They could please anyone (yes, I said anyone) just by rebalancing their homebrew.
I.E : it's not necessary to reduce our creativity and break the advantage system of D&D to give players better chance to hit if they're higher/behind.

There are only PRO and they're professionals. They'll do something about combats. That's pretty obvious.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 11/05/21 04:30 PM.
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I bought the EA day 1 with the hope and intention of modding the hell outta this game, especially after seeing the EA FAQ mention modding would be supported for release.
Honestly I don't really care what "cheese" ends up staying in for the full game as I'll just grab the best RAW mod the community puts out. I do feel for those who will not have the option to mod however.

Edit: I'm not modding the game till it is released though and the full tools are out for the modders to do things right. For now I'm suffering through with the rest of you. crazy

Last edited by OcO; 11/05/21 07:35 PM.
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Originally Posted by OcO
I bought the EA day 1 with the hope and intention of modding the hell outta this game, especially after seeing the EA FAQ mention modding would be supported for release.
Honestly I don't really care what "cheese" ends up staying in for the full game as I'll just grab the best RAW mod the community puts out. I do feel for those who will not have the option to mod however.

Edit: I'm not modding the game till it is released though and the full tools are out for the modders to do things right. For now I'm suffering through with the rest of you. crazy

You should care because modding will not be able to get all cheese out of the system when it is too integral to the game.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by OcO
I bought the EA day 1 with the hope and intention of modding the hell outta this game, especially after seeing the EA FAQ mention modding would be supported for release.
Honestly I don't really care what "cheese" ends up staying in for the full game as I'll just grab the best RAW mod the community puts out. I do feel for those who will not have the option to mod however.

Edit: I'm not modding the game till it is released though and the full tools are out for the modders to do things right. For now I'm suffering through with the rest of you. crazy

You should care because modding will not be able to get all cheese out of the system when it is too integral to the game.

There is certainly a lot that will need to be tweaked but there is already 1 or more mods for it on Nexus. There is even a modder currently working on casting touch range spells through familiars. After release and with mod tools released, I'm fairly certain we'll see some kind of multiple choice rules options mod that will allow people to pick and choose what if anything they wish to swap to RAW.

That said, maybe saying "I don't care" wasn't quite the correct thing to say since I DO care enough that I'm going to be modding most of it RAW 1st chance I get.

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Can you help me?
It would be usefull in many other threats.

I would like to know why do you mind it.
Yes, Larian homebrew rules, and as you say "cheese" is in the game ... personaly i simply dont use most of it (i shall not claim i dont use any, since im not allways even sure what is and what isnt 5e or Larian), so it dont bother me at all ...
Yet it seem like some people here started holy crusade against those things, since "simply dont use it" is not good enough. Could you please explain me why?


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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