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#768226 04/04/21 05:59 PM
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Ok Circle of the Land is all messed up. For one there are forms this sub class that in this game they shouldn’t have access to that is meant for either lvl 8 or circle of the moon. Which is a huge slap in the face to circle of the moon. Secondly, and this one is a huge issue... they don’t get to pick a land type. I mean it is called circle of that for a reason , and not “circle of Larion’s arbitrary choice” It matters a great deal actually. It determines what spells the subclass gets access to, and gives circle of the moon a greater access to spells then Druid alone would get access to.

If they can’t do it right they should do it at all. That goes for them following rules from the game following the dice and paper Dnd 5e in general.

Last edited by soulstalker; 04/04/21 06:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by soulstalker
Secondly, and this one is a huge issue... they don’t get to pick a land type. I mean it is called circle of that for a reason , and not “circle of Larion’s arbitrary choice” It matters a great deal actually. It determines what spells the subclass gets access to, and gives circle of the moon a greater access to spells then Druid alone would get access to.
I am not sure what you mean here? I could pick the land circle on level 3 (went with underdark for my drow druid). Should moon circle druids get this too?

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My mistake then I thought they picked land type when they picked the sub class at lvl 2

No moon shouldn’t get it but circle of the land does get higher Cr creature access in this game then they should at lvl 2

Last edited by soulstalker; 04/04/21 06:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by soulstalker
My mistake then I thought they picked land type when they picked the sub class at lvl 2

No moon shouldn’t get it but circle of the land does get higher Cr creature access in this game then they should at lvl 2


Why does it matter? The forms are weak and useless, and Land druids will never use a form because doing so is not a bonus action, but a whole action, and a total laibility.

Wolf form has 23 measly HP, and that's the most you get as a Land druid. And for what, with the garbage 12-13 AC forms have, meaning your forms won't last beyond a turn.

And forms don't do crap for damage, you do more with your one handed club with Shillelagh, you can't reposition moonbeam or flame sphere, you can't cast healing word as a bonus action heal.

Druid forms are totally worthless in EA when you can go land, sit in Humanoif with scale mail+1 with shield at 19-21 AC, and since Land Druids have mirror images and Moon druids do not, that's 30-27-24 AC for the next 3 turns, being far more survivable and with way more damage output and utility.

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The animal forms have some utility. Outside combat, badger, spider and cat are good for recon/sneaking/jumping.

Initiating combat with a burrowing badger often gives Lae'zel a few nice prone targets for round one, as well as giving you 13 extra hit points. Similarly, the wolf can kick things off by giving the party some valuable extra movement, as well as a 23-point health buffer. Spider form is useful in the spider fight, allowing two characters instead of one (assuming you've found the boots) to navigate the webs, and not bad against the harpies, being the most mobile unit available to you in the game bar the Moon Druid's raven.

But yes, apart from some cute opening-round tricks, the Land druid works much better as a fighter/caster. I treat the animal forms as a sort of pre-fight buff - a mega-Aid for one character plus a mass Longstrider or Sleep.

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Originally Posted by Adiktus
The animal forms have some utility. Outside combat, badger, spider and cat are good for recon/sneaking/jumping.

Initiating combat with a burrowing badger often gives Lae'zel a few nice prone targets for round one, as well as giving you 13 extra hit points. Similarly, the wolf can kick things off by giving the party some valuable extra movement, as well as a 23-point health buffer. Spider form is useful in the spider fight, allowing two characters instead of one (assuming you've found the boots) to navigate the webs, and not bad against the harpies, being the most mobile unit available to you in the game bar the Moon Druid's raven.

But yes, apart from some cute opening-round tricks, the Land druid works much better as a fighter/caster. I treat the animal forms as a sort of pre-fight buff - a mega-Aid for one character plus a mass Longstrider or Sleep.


The HP buffer is actually the biggest liability. Sitting in wolf form, ate a crit from the ogre trio that sent my druid straight to death status. This woukd have been drastically less likely to happen sitting on my high AC humanoid form.

In the spider fight the last thing I want to do is be in spider form and eat a 24+ damage poison spit with my low AC.

I'd much rather sit in humanoid and recast moonbeam or flame sphere to cleave multiple spiders out, and both those spells illuminate the phase matriarch, making it easier for your non darkvision companions to land their attacks.

The wolf form speed buff is nice, but largely irrelevant past lv2 because the casters got their misty step, Lazael can already cover half a continent in between her jump distance with metal boota and base movement, and then by lv3 you can alreqdy get the amulet of Misty Step from Minthara and the Boots of speed from Thulla in the Underdark to cover all your group movement needs.

The idea that Land druids are somehow unfairly benefiting from form access is silly. Druids of both cir les SHOULD have useful, feel good to use thematic forms. The difference should be the combat leaning.

And currently both Land and Moon druid essentially play the same, like a caster, because the forms are so awful with the low damage output, the abysmal AC and HP pools, the lack of access to strong druid utility in the form of healing (which with items also triggers bladeward, disengage, poison on weapon) or access to your concentration spells.

And even if you could reposition moonbeam or flame sphere in form, you wouldn't want to because with the awful 12-13 base AC the concentration spell wouldn't last beyond a turn.

Druid forms need a serious tune up to be a viable combat alternative and not just a crappy convoluted Wizard arcane ward equivalent HP buffer with an animal model.

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Originally Posted by Zenith
The HP buffer is actually the biggest liability. Sitting in wolf form, ate a crit from the ogre trio that sent my druid straight to death status. This woukd have been drastically less likely to happen sitting on my high AC humanoid form.
I don't see how extra HP is a liability. Crits are automatic hits regardless of AC. Being in humanoid form would have just meant you had that much less of a health pool, and might have died outright from massive damage bringing you to your negative max health (Does BG3 have that mechanic?)
And regular attacks, while they might have missed your high-HP humanoid form, will most often do less than the 18-30HP of your wildshape form.

I agree that wild shaping is incredibly suboptimal because you're sacrificing dealing damage for extra health (especially with Larian's concentration spells and polar bear multi-attack nerfs), and in D&D it's almost always better to deal damage. But the HP buffer of wildshapes will rarely make it more likely for you to die.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Zenith
The HP buffer is actually the biggest liability. Sitting in wolf form, ate a crit from the ogre trio that sent my druid straight to death status. This woukd have been drastically less likely to happen sitting on my high AC humanoid form.
I don't see how extra HP is a liability. Crits are automatic hits regardless of AC. Being in humanoid form would have just meant you had that much less of a health pool, and might have died outright from massive damage bringing you to your negative max health (Does BG3 have that mechanic?)
And regular attacks, while they might have missed your high-HP humanoid form, will most often do less than the 18-30HP of your wildshape form.

I agree that wild shaping is incredibly suboptimal because you're sacrificing dealing damage for extra health (especially with Larian's concentration spells and polar bear multi-attack nerfs), and in D&D it's almost always better to deal damage. But the HP buffer of wildshapes will rarely make it more likely for you to die.

Is that how they actually work? Is it not a separate die to hit and then another one for whether it crits? I coukd have sworn I did an exposing bite on wolf and then Lazael promptly missed her swing, eating up the debuff for a guaranteed crit and doing no damage. Then again, I could have read that wrong.

I just say that the extra HP feels like a liability because on average with how hard enemies hit (even lowly goblin shamans are hitting a witchbolt for 12 damage, for example), an AC in animal form makes you waste a turn losing a form in 1-2 enemy actions, whereas at 19-21 AC the vast majority of non grenade attacks are missing you altogether.

In this game the adage of avoiding damage >>> mitigating it holds especially true with current balancing. I really hope they do something to rein in such deeply stark binary outcomes.

And I hope when they fix forms, its more than just polar bear damage. All the forms except perhaps spider and raven need work.

In particular its pretty glaring how even the tadpole shapeshift, a once per long rest power, isnt even a bonus action shift for moon druids, and has less health than a wolf while having abysmal hit rates and completely mediocre damage despite being a glass cannon form.

And the int debuff bonus skill is too gimmicky. It only benefits someone like gale in the group, and int saving throws are rather few for Gale's attacks anyways, and Gale is using force missiles with the necklace assuming he has a less than 90% hit rate with Ray of Flame+Hex combo.

These forms need work. And my point is that for both circles of druid, forms are a class defining mechanic that should feel good abd attractive to use, the main difference being how much you lean into each aspect.

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@Zenith
Generally, if you roll a 20 on the attack roll, it's a critical and automatic hit. There's no additional roll. So anyone attacking your wild-shaped form would need to roll a single 20 to crit, but they'd have also have crit your high-AC humanoid with that roll.

In your specific recent example, Exposing Bite does cause the next attack to be a critical hit. Idk exactly how that works, I suppose it only deals a critical hit if you actually make a successful attack roll??Although it may "store" the debuff until a successful attack is made...?

I definitely agree the forms need work, but I don't think they need an AC buff or anything. Increasing the damage Moon Druid forms do + allowing you to move concentration spells like Flaming Sphere should be sufficient. I want a risk (lower AC) vs reward (higher damage, more effects like Trip or Web) decision process when choosing to Wild Shape. It shouldn't always be better to Wild Shape, but it also shouldn't always be better to stay as a humanoid.

Oh, and of course, it's necessary to remove the double instancing of damage (hit + splash) from AoE flasks/arrows which make it so easy to lose concentration.
Land Druid forms should generally be useful only outside of combat: scouting, sneaking, flying, etc.

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Well, I found the forms to be practically useless, when I got one shot from the flind when i was in bear form.
Trying to maintain concentration while in shape is doomed to failure.
No matter if it's a gnoll, spectator, minotaur or random goblin, one hit will in most cases deprive you of concentration.

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Land should not have access to such effective Wild Shape for combat reasons. Should have been very low creatures, just like the cat.

Moon is seriously underpowered as a result.

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Moon is underpowered because they nerfed the forms. Land druid wildshape forms are mostly downgraded to out of combat stuff. It really does not matter what they get since you can't cast(The better option) in wildshape till 18 for both subclasses.

Moon druid are suppose to be strong till level 5 then left in the dust till level 10 then struggle to 18. The nerfs may be worse that it seems, but it has nothing to do with land druids. Land druids are fine.

Moon druids should eventually be fine as long as they keep elemental wildshapes, but who knows if they get to keep those.

Last edited by Aishaddai; 05/04/21 05:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zenith
Originally Posted by soulstalker
My mistake then I thought they picked land type when they picked the sub class at lvl 2

No moon shouldn’t get it but circle of the land does get higher Cr creature access in this game then they should at lvl 2


Why does it matter? The forms are weak and useless, and Land druids will never use a form because doing so is not a bonus action, but a whole action, and a total laibility.

Wolf form has 23 measly HP, and that's the most you get as a Land druid. And for what, with the garbage 12-13 AC forms have, meaning your forms won't last beyond a turn.

And forms don't do crap for damage, you do more with your one handed club with Shillelagh, you can't reposition moonbeam or flame sphere, you can't cast healing word as a bonus action heal.

Druid forms are totally worthless in EA when you can go land, sit in Humanoif with scale mail+1 with shield at 19-21 AC, and since Land Druids have mirror images and Moon druids do not, that's 30-27-24 AC for the next 3 turns, being far more survivable and with way more damage output and utility.

Because even if you wanted to play using forms the wild shape options for moon druid exclusively have been made as crap, I wouldn't even call them loosely DnD 5e stat blocks. They are so awful that you don't really gain much difference with forms between circle of the land and circle of the moon so far in BG3, certainly not enough of a difference to not just go circle of the land over circle of the moon and get the extra stuff from there. Circle of the moon in BG3 so far is so gimped due to its severely under powered wild shapes that it is not worth it to specialize in it over circle of the land. In dice and paper DnD 5e , sure i would most hardily say go circle ofthe moon over circle of the land, but it is no question to me that circle of the land is better by leaps and bounds then circle of the moon in BG3 because of there i guess paranoia of giving us things like multiattack at lvl 2. It also shows Larion has completely no understanding of druid in DnD 5e and its unique power curves compared to other classes. They need a major overhaul on there wild shape forms . they need to put in things that are supposed to be there as in the dnd 5e stat blocks. Stuff like multiattack, what a creatures speeds actually are, what there HP and AC is. Do they have darkvision? giant spider should be able to hang from the ceiling or walk up walls due to spider climb ability. All that stuff is the minimum I feel that will make people happy with wild shape... also look at what CR your giving moon druid vs land druid... it matters. sure give land druid more the utility forms starting at CR 1/4 and expanding up to CR 1/2 at lvl 4, and all the way up to CR 1 at lvl 8. Any other way is a slap in the face to Moon druid. Moon druid should get all of those plus a collection of combat related forms that are CR 1, and then Cr forms starting at lvl 6 at CR2 and then up 1 CR lvl every 3 druid levels afterward.

Last edited by soulstalker; 05/04/21 09:07 PM.
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I finally got my circle of land druid to lvl 3 and so could pick a land choice which i chose mountain. why moutian you ask ? because i actually do play in wild shape more then in caster even as a circle of land, and atm circle of land is stronger then circle of moon for fighting in wild shape. the extra forms in BG3 you get during early access are not worth the diffrence to go circle ofthe moon and miss out on the extra spells, cantrip and natural recovery compared to what you get for circle of moon, and going circle of land using mountain as land type gets you mirror image a spell that is good for both caster and wild shapes . cast it on your self, maybe with a concertation spell like barkskin or flaming sphere , then wildshape into something like giant spider... the wild shape you take on will take on clones of that wildshape and will increases its survivability. I wonder if taking magic initiate (warlock) for hex would work to increase the damage you do in the forms. I will need to play with that to see how well that works

Last edited by soulstalker; 06/04/21 01:46 AM.

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