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#768479 06/04/21 03:04 AM
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I am doing a test run of the game with my 3 custom characters and Lae'zel using only D&D 5e rules to the best of my abilities. I am at the hag's house, and so far the game is going very well.

For example, if I drink a potion, I restrict myself from using an Action. Same for Disengage. I don't throw barrels. I eat food periodically, but only when full health, pretending to stave off exhaustion. I don't use Jump to bypass difficult terrain and then attack.

It not only can be done, but I'm telling you it works. Even though enemies cheat and use potions and disengage as Bonus Actions, I can still beat them. The game is, of course, more challenging, but it clearly can be done, and it definitely makes the game more fun for me. I find myself using potions more, I use more strategy, I use short rests more, etc.

So it can be done, Larian. It does work, and it is rewarding.

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I want to say that this is probably going to have the exact opposite reaction from what you're probably intending.

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Yeah good material for the "if you don't like it don't use it" crowd. laugh

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Oh cool they finally don't have to change anything because it works ! If you don't like it don't use it, everything is perfectly okay whatever the experience you're looking for !

rolleyes

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Yeah i was trying to do the same on my last playthrough - as i did not like those changes to the rules - forcing myself to use rules like the ones you mentioned and i agree a game mode which would do these automatically instead of us would be amazing, the game becomes clearly more tactical, tense and rewarding (to me at least).

I saw some of the comments saying "then dont use it" and i really tried to play the whole EA like that but that did not really work for me on long term, one reason is that i dont like to keep notice of changed rules in my head when im playing a videogame i want and expect the GAME to set complex challenges for me. Also the game keeps showing me signs for opposite intentions (as you mentioned enemies are still cheating with those actions) and overall its just not the same rewarding feeling at the end of the battles, as i just know im not beating a game ultimately, but some rules in my head.

Also i saw comments saying "use mods then". Im not against mods but they can be tricky with multiple versions and game updates, also sometimes mods i need are clashing with each other etc. so i use them only after a couple of vanilla playthroughs only (like i did for DOS2).

So fingers crossed, im up for a more challenging game mode which includes changes like the mentioned ones.

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This is pretty close to way I play as well.

Yes, it can be used by the "if you don't like it don't use it" but I would be fine with that if "don't use it" was included as a difficulty option.

Solasta does this now. Don't like concentration checks? Turn them off in difficulty settings . . .

But we also need replacements for broken mechanics -- jump as a substitute for disengage is a real problem -- if we don't use it we don't have a disengage at all. (which is strange since the goblin kids seem to have a real disengage)

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
But we also need replacements for broken mechanics -- jump as a substitute for disengage is a real problem -- if we don't use it we don't have a disengage at all. (which is strange since the goblin kids seem to have a real disengage)

Goblins actually do get disengage as a bonus action. We won't see later enemies abusing it.

What is not supposed to happen though are Bulettes being able to spam their leaping attack without provoking opportunity attacks from the party. And Minotaurs are more known for charging at a single target, not leaping shockwave AoE attacks.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 06/04/21 07:52 AM.
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Yeah and you have to care not standing on a rock, you have to care not being behind an ennemy, you can't use any special ammo, you can't ambush anyone, you can't ever try to use thunderwave,...

We as players shouldn't have to choose which mechanics to use.
Larian's homebrewed ARE usually cool but way too OP.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 06/04/21 08:13 AM.
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Right. The point is that it works and can be done and the game is MORE fun if 5e is implemented more accurately.

So I am suggesting Larian either implements the rules more accurately or provide a difficulty setting for strict 5e.

Why do we need it? Because enemies still get to abuse the rules if they don't implement accurate 5e rules, because there are times I can't use Bonus Actions since I drank a potion and pretended it was an Action, because it is a pain to try to remember every 5e rule myself and make sure I'm following it correctly, because some rules I have to really sit there and think about and calculate out myself, etc.

There are enough people who want 5e more accurately done out here and I'm proving it can work and is more fun and balanced and makes more use of game mechanics like potions and I'm trying to let Larian know so maybe they will do it. You can't tell me you aren't implementing the 5e rules because it's a CRPG and the accurate 5e rules just won't work. They do. Even if enemies cheat and I don't, which is like playing 5e on Hard Mode, it still works.

Of course, I haven't gotten to the REAL tough enemies yet. When I face the hag, and she's cheating on the rules, will I need to cheat also? What about the Bullette and the Minotaurs? ūüė≥

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Yeah and you have to care not standing on a rock, you have to care not being behind an ennemy, you can't use any special ammo, you can't ambush anyone, you can't ever try to use thunderwave,...

We as players shouldn't have to choose which mechanics to use.
Larian's homebrewed ARE usually cool but way too OP.
For me it depends on how the mechanics are implemented. I agree that if the players needs to actively counteract a mechanics to avoid the cheese, this is a problem. Apart from height, stealth is another example. Currently ranged attacks have your character roll for stealth even if you don't hide this character. Enemies don't react even if you hit them several times and that over relatively short distances. It doesn't make sense and is quite immersion breaking.

Dipping on the other hand I don't have to counteract; I simply don't use that action. And I've seen only very few enemies use it, so I don't mind it being in the game.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Dipping on the other hand I don't have to counteract; I simply don't use that action. And I've seen only very few enemies use it, so I don't mind it being in the game.

I don't really know how to balance a game.

What I know is that a 1D8 dipped weapon deal more damages than a 1D12 weapon (especially if your target start burning - especially if you have 2 weapons in your hands).

The game allow players to use it at anytime giving them better weapons (bonus action + candle cheese). Ennemy's won't use it so they probably need buffs.
And on the other hand there's you and me that don't plan to use it because we don't like how it works/looks like.

I guess it's an impossible job to balance a game so the experience is enjoyable for everyone... Except if the mechanic itself is better balanced.

Ofc it's only about one part of the whole. The game is a whole and I guess everything (except real choices for fun i.e like barrelmancy or infinite pickpocketting) matter in the balance.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 06/04/21 10:51 AM.
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Well, the BG1 & 2 games were not balanced at all. But while some exploits were obvious and easy to use (e.g. fog of war), they were also very easy not to use. In BG3 with some mechanics even if you want to avoid them, it is very difficult to actually do so.

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I just wish they find the perfect balance. I don't want a toggle for every little detail. I just want a "true D&D 5e" mode, but they can sprinkle in some homebrew where it doesn't completely change the game.

E.g. I like...

- Potions as a bonus action. They heal so little they would be useless otherwise.
- Wizards being able to learn all Cantrips. (They can learn all level 3 spells, so how come they can't learn all cantrips? Having access to every cantrip is not a balance issue. But learning other classes' spells and spamming long rests is a big no no.)
- having to consider the battlefield environment in 3D and using the terrain to my advantage.. but do NOT like how overpowering Backstab and especially High Ground are. (and where's Cover???)
- bigger emphasis on environmental hazards in a video game. But do NOT like the excessive spam of acid, poison and fire surfaces from consumables and common enemies like goblins (and gamey properties like acid giving a temporary AC debuff. If it corrodes, your armor should be ruined permanently. Things need to make sense in an RPG.)

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I wish there was a Core D&D Rules difficulty level too. It's something I started wishing for around my 200th hour playing EA. It took me several playthroughs of Act 1 to notice that using elevation for advantage overshadows all other tactical considerations in most fights. Or that Lae'zel does a better job if she constantly hops behind the enemies' back, which isn't how we imagine a D&D fighter behaving. Or that it's actually superfluous to position your melee characters in a way that gives your rogue sneak attack opportunities, he does better just stabbing enemies in the back. And of course mundane food items often proving as good or better than magical healing potions.

Maybe this aspect of the game isn't discussed more in online reviews because you need to put a significant amount of time into the game before noticing those patterns. But once you do, it's really glaring and omnipresent. It makes me wish I could erase my accumulated knowledge of the game's mechanics and go back to a more "beginner's eyes" state when the game's combat encounters felt more tactically rich and more evocative of D&D.

So it's good to know that it's possible to play that way and the game still works.

Last edited by agouzov; 06/04/21 12:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by 1varangian
I just wish they find the perfect balance. I don't want a toggle for every little detail. I just want a "true D&D 5e" mode, but they can sprinkle in some homebrew where it doesn't completely change the game.

E.g. I like...

- Potions as a bonus action. They heal so little they would be useless otherwise.
- Wizards being able to learn all Cantrips. (They can learn all level 3 spells, so how come they can't learn all cantrips? Having access to every cantrip is not a balance issue. But learning other classes' spells and spamming long rests is a big no no.)
- having to consider the battlefield environment in 3D and using the terrain to my advantage.. but do NOT like how overpowering Backstab and especially High Ground are. (and where's Cover???)
- bigger emphasis on environmental hazards in a video game. But do NOT like the excessive spam of acid, poison and fire surfaces from consumables and common enemies like goblins (and gamey properties like acid giving a temporary AC debuff. If it corrodes, your armor should be ruined permanently. Things need to make sense in an RPG.)

That's actually something that we don't mention enough. Many BG3 homebrew rules are actually very good! Like the new weapon-specific attacks (Cleave, Pin Down, etc) or using up your lockpicks when you fail a check with them. As far as I can tell, everyone loves those additions to the game. So it's definitaly not a case of "homebrew rules = bad".

Last edited by agouzov; 06/04/21 12:54 PM.
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I just thought it might be good to actually test it as opposed to just asking them to do it. One of the arguments against 5e being more accurately obeyed is that if they do this the game won't be as balanced and enjoyable. So they need to nerf things like sneak attack and allow backstab and barrel throwing to make the game fun.

I personally like some of their house rules. I like poison clouds and greasing and setting fire to enemies and some of those types of things, but the whole backstab thing where Lae'zel plays Hulk Leap and Slash is ridiculous. Either make enemies easier to hit by lowering AC or give me better weapons so my chances of hitting regardless of facing and height are better. It is actually more frustrating for me to constantly make sure I position key characters right to avoid backstab and enemy height advantage than anything, and like someone said, I didn't even realize these little strategies in my first few playthroughs. So enemies were beating the tar out of me because they were using them and I wasn't.

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Originally Posted by agouzov
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I just wish they find the perfect balance. I don't want a toggle for every little detail. I just want a "true D&D 5e" mode, but they can sprinkle in some homebrew where it doesn't completely change the game.

E.g. I like...

- Potions as a bonus action. They heal so little they would be useless otherwise.
- Wizards being able to learn all Cantrips. (They can learn all level 3 spells, so how come they can't learn all cantrips? Having access to every cantrip is not a balance issue. But learning other classes' spells and spamming long rests is a big no no.)
- having to consider the battlefield environment in 3D and using the terrain to my advantage.. but do NOT like how overpowering Backstab and especially High Ground are. (and where's Cover???)
- bigger emphasis on environmental hazards in a video game. But do NOT like the excessive spam of acid, poison and fire surfaces from consumables and common enemies like goblins (and gamey properties like acid giving a temporary AC debuff. If it corrodes, your armor should be ruined permanently. Things need to make sense in an RPG.)

That's actually something that we don't mention enough. Many BG3 homebrew rules are actually very good! Like the new weapon-specific attacks (Cleave, Pin Down, etc) or using up your lockpicks when you fail a check with them. As far as I can tell, everyone loves those additions to the game. So it's definitaly not a case of "homebrew rules = bad".
I understand potions as a bonus action is a popular house rule in tabletop as well, so it has been tested and there are grounds to change it. And if I was the DM I would unlock all cantrips. I don't get it why they need to be so tightly restricted.

I like the weapon specific abilities like Cleave and Bash too, but I'm not sure I like the implementation of one use per fight the best. What if I'm surrounded and would like to cleave again? I think I would prefer something like -4 to attack in exchange for the AoE of Cleave or a damage boost and chance to stun or push with Bash, that you could do as often as you like. That would also solve the weird exploit of cycling different weapons to use all their abilities in the same fight. I haven't actually done that but I assume it's possible?

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I just thought it might be good to actually test it as opposed to just asking them to do it. One of the arguments against 5e being more accurately obeyed is that if they do this the game won't be as balanced and enjoyable. So they need to nerf things like sneak attack and allow backstab and barrel throwing to make the game fun.

I personally like some of their house rules. I like poison clouds and greasing and setting fire to enemies and some of those types of things, but the whole backstab thing where Lae'zel plays Hulk Leap and Slash is ridiculous. Either make enemies easier to hit by lowering AC or give me better weapons so my chances of hitting regardless of facing and height are better. It is actually more frustrating for me to constantly make sure I position key characters right to avoid backstab and enemy height advantage than anything, and like someone said, I didn't even realize these little strategies in my first few playthroughs. So enemies were beating the tar out of me because they were using them and I wasn't.
They could experiment with giving a slightly higher Proficiency bonus progression to increase hit rates 5-10% and make proficient skills work more often. Perhaps balance the extra HP loss by giving a 3rd short rest, or an automatic Short Rest after every encounter (unless you flee so it can't be exploited).

While lowering the enemy AC only helps attacks that target AC and effectively nerfs spells like Sacred Flame that target Saving Throws, a Proficiency bonus buff would be equally beneficial to everything. Hence less balance complications like we are already seeing with Sacred Flame, Poison Spray etc. after goblin AC got lowered.

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Originally Posted by agouzov
That's actually something that we don't mention enough. Many BG3 homebrew rules are actually very good! Like the new weapon-specific attacks (Cleave, Pin Down, etc) or using up your lockpicks when you fail a check with them. As far as I can tell, everyone loves those additions to the game. So it's definitaly not a case of "homebrew rules = bad".


That's debatable. I personally hate the fact that they've tied cleave and trip to particular weapons. Why should I have carry around and swap to a quarterstaff just to perform a trip attack? It is possible to trip someone without a quarterstaff.

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Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by agouzov
That's actually something that we don't mention enough. Many BG3 homebrew rules are actually very good! Like the new weapon-specific attacks (Cleave, Pin Down, etc) or using up your lockpicks when you fail a check with them. As far as I can tell, everyone loves those additions to the game. So it's definitaly not a case of "homebrew rules = bad".


That's debatable. I personally hate the fact that they've tied cleave and trip to particular weapons. Why should I have carry around and swap to a quarterstaff just to perform a trip attack? It is possible to trip someone without a quarterstaff.
Agreed. The moves are cool - make them something that martial classes can do as part of their skillset. There's nothing inherent in the weapon that suddenly allows anyone wielding it to do that move.

I dislike lockpicks as consumables. It's a little bit like tracking normal arrows (at least they decided not to make you do that in BG3). Either make them an actual scarce resource, in which case tracking might make sense, or just make one set of thieves' tools that never gets consumed and stop bothering me with this thing that just clogs up my inventory.

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