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Hello, Larian!
Let me give my humble opinion.

Mages have a huge number of spells that they can use in battle, respectively, they also have a lot of variations of actions each turn.
But non-casters are limited to very few and uninteresting abilities. I know that you are bound by the rules of the board game, but if you decide to add more active skills to non-casters, I will be very grateful. A variety of abilities is a variety in the gameplay.
You did a great job of making the warriors interesting in Divinity. They had diverse and numerous abilities.

Thank you for reading!
I'm really looking forward to your game.

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A variety of abilities doesn't always mean variety in gameplay but it would be cool to have more actions like i.e "shove to prone", "dodge" or "grappling" and more interresting melee combats through "flanking" or encounter designed so fighters can control the battlefield (rather than running everywhere to engage the too many ennemies that can ranged attack).

I guess they really don't like melee characters and/or don't really know how to give them interrests.
Melee can definitely be interresting without tons of features.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 07/04/21 11:16 AM.
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UH, noncasters get a lot of abilities in 5e. Rogues have sneak attack and each subclass has different abilities granted. Monks can dodgetank and use ki for practically anything. Barbarians hit hard, berserk, and facetank anything. And fighters are very very consistent and get maneuvers or other features.

Casters do get versatility, but melee characters also have their own utility and strengths. And larian has even added special attacks to weapons, which I think is actually a decent implementation because it is common for a player to ask to do something special with their attack, but they still need things like a proper grapple, and fixing disengage because monks get a better disengage.

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When I'm controlling a full party of 4-6, I prefer to have Fighters and other non-spellcasters play more straightforward with less choices. It's a good dynamic with melee and magic. If every single character has a million choices it slows things down. And I don't like exotic combat abilities that look and perform like magic.

Martial classes still have lots of tactical options in D&D even without crazy abilities. Placement, who to engage, shoving away or prone, battlemaster abilities, action surge...

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I guess they really don't like melee characters and/or don't really know how to give them interrests.
Melee can definitely be interresting without tons of features.
I don't think there is an easy fix. If we try to keep things more or less grounded, there is only that much you can do with a melee or ranged character. In a team based real-time game, I don't necessarly feel that's a problem - gaving more and less micro-intensive characters works well. DnD3 and pathfinder add bunch of modals and passive abilities to melee characters, but I was never a fan of it - I generally prefer active tactical abilities, then passive character builds. In the end, to me it feels the same as swinging with a genereric fighter in BG2, it's just too easy to create someone who can't do anything useful.

While, like OP mentioned, D:OS1&2 spread active between melee and spellcaster archetypes the downside it made every character feel more or less the same - not much distinction between magic and non-magic characters.

Rather then making everyone active, I would prefer if BG3 focused on synergy between classes - that's what I always thought DnD was about. buff/debuff with one, hit wth the other.

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They could add a stamina point system which is really just spell slots, but for physical. Physical abilites can be the three categories: slashing, blunt, pierce. Some characters can simply use multi resources like superior die and ki for the more potent abilites. Keep the simple subclasses for new players but rework or simply add new subclasses with higher complexity. The animations and sound effects are the biggest things that need work. Needs kendo, fencing, and martial arts influencing. Exaggerated of course. It is fantasy after all. Spinning slashes, ground slams, rapid thrusts, knockbacks, disarms, dashes, lunges, sweeps. Many of these already in the game but locked to weapons. Battlemaster should get these too but without proper animations it falls short by a wide margin.

Magic still with have fire, ice, lighting, radiant, necro, etc. So no it wont be homogenize the classes. Caster lovers will still complain I can imagine.

Last edited by Aishaddai; 07/04/21 04:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Baltrazar
Hello, Larian!
Let me give my humble opinion.

Mages have a huge number of spells that they can use in battle, respectively, they also have a lot of variations of actions each turn.
But non-casters are limited to very few and uninteresting abilities. I know that you are bound by the rules of the board game, but if you decide to add more active skills to non-casters, I will be very grateful. A variety of abilities is a variety in the gameplay.
You did a great job of making the warriors interesting in Divinity. They had diverse and numerous abilities.

Thank you for reading!
I'm really looking forward to your game.

Really have you played the game much? Non casters have more choices then casters in my view. Casters have a few spell slots that get used up rather quickly and then they are out of mojo. Back to that same cantrip over and over.

Also, I would note, there are different types of "fun". Divinity was "cartoony kids" fun. I do hope that BG3, keeps the more "adult attitude" . Well, I hope it goes more adult with Gore, brutal and dark. That's way more fun then "cartoon" fun.

I personally find Melee more powerful and interesting, but I think that's because we are only up to level 4. I think at higher Levels the casters may start to shine.

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Nah. Nah. Nah. Guys. If they just do 5e right, everything would work fine. Fighters have plenty of options the more they level up. In the beginning, yes, it is mostly attack. But later you can get Superiority Dice and unique abilities that only Fighters can get. Same with all classes.

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Originally Posted by Aishaddai
They could add a stamina point system which is really just spell slots, but for physical. Physical can be the three categories: slashing, blunt, pierce. Some characters can simply use multi resources like superior die and ki for the more potent abilites. Keep the simple subclasses for new players but rework or simply add new subclasses with higher complexity. The animations and sound effects are the biggest things that need work. Needs kendo, fencing, and martial arts influencing. Exaggerated of course. It is fantasy after all.

Magic still with have fire, ice, lighting, radiant, necro, etc. So no it wont be homogenize the classes. Caster lovers will still complain I can imagine.

I LOVE the simple realistic animations and sound effects this game has. It gives it a less cartoon and more realistic feel, like you can imagine this world being real, and your not just watching a animated tv program.

If they take your advice and make it all exaggerated and loud, they will ruin this game from a masterpiece to just another video game, like so many other games out there.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I guess they really don't like melee characters and/or don't really know how to give them interrests.
Melee can definitely be interresting without tons of features.
I don't think there is an easy fix. If we try to keep things more or less grounded, there is only that much you can do with a melee or ranged character. In a team based real-time game, I don't necessarly feel that's a problem - gaving more and less micro-intensive characters works well. DnD3 and pathfinder add bunch of modals and passive abilities to melee characters, but I was never a fan of it - I generally prefer active tactical abilities, then passive character builds. In the end, to me it feels the same as swinging with a genereric fighter in BG2, it's just too easy to create someone who can't do anything useful.

While, like OP mentioned, D:OS1&2 spread active between melee and spellcaster archetypes the downside it made every character feel more or less the same - not much distinction between magic and non-magic characters.

Rather then making everyone active, I would prefer if BG3 focused on synergy between classes - that's what I always thought DnD was about. buff/debuff with one, hit wth the other.

It's hard to compare with the old games because it was RTWP but tactical TB games doesn't always give a lot of features to characters and still have engaging and interresting/tactical combats.

I.E variety also comes from the environment and Larian's encounter design seems usually built on the same "model".

I'd also like more synergies between companions. That's why I often mention flanking instead of backstab as an improvement.
The help action, shove to prone, grappling... These are also active actions that could increase the tactical value of the game. Of course these specific ones wouldn't tie to a specific class (or maybe some could ?) but some build would be better depending their abilities.

There's a lot of room to improve melee combats without tons of new skills.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 07/04/21 05:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tabuk
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
They could add a stamina point system which is really just spell slots, but for physical. Physical can be the three categories: slashing, blunt, pierce. Some characters can simply use multi resources like superior die and ki for the more potent abilites. Keep the simple subclasses for new players but rework or simply add new subclasses with higher complexity. The animations and sound effects are the biggest things that need work. Needs kendo, fencing, and martial arts influencing. Exaggerated of course. It is fantasy after all.

Magic still with have fire, ice, lighting, radiant, necro, etc. So no it wont be homogenize the classes. Caster lovers will still complain I can imagine.

I LOVE the simple realistic animations and sound effects this game has. It gives it a less cartoon and more realistic feel, like you can imagine this world being real, and your not just watching a animated tv program.

If they take your advice and make it all exaggerated and loud, they will ruin this game from a masterpiece to just another video game, like so many other games out there.

Realistic in dnd? You want a documentary? I want fantasy which is Dnd. Consistency is important and "realistic" is an unnecessary nerf and eye sore to a fantasy franchise. Its like legolas losing his eyes, Aragon getting tired after the second kill, gandalf doesn't even exist for example.

I greatly dissagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Aishaddai
Originally Posted by Tabuk
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
They could add a stamina point system which is really just spell slots, but for physical. Physical can be the three categories: slashing, blunt, pierce. Some characters can simply use multi resources like superior die and ki for the more potent abilites. Keep the simple subclasses for new players but rework or simply add new subclasses with higher complexity. The animations and sound effects are the biggest things that need work. Needs kendo, fencing, and martial arts influencing. Exaggerated of course. It is fantasy after all.

Magic still with have fire, ice, lighting, radiant, necro, etc. So no it wont be homogenize the classes. Caster lovers will still complain I can imagine.

I LOVE the simple realistic animations and sound effects this game has. It gives it a less cartoon and more realistic feel, like you can imagine this world being real, and your not just watching a animated tv program.

If they take your advice and make it all exaggerated and loud, they will ruin this game from a masterpiece to just another video game, like so many other games out there.

Realistic in dnd? You want a documentary? I want fantasy which is Dnd. Consistency is important and "realistic" is an unnecessary nerf and eye sore to a fantasy franchise. Its like legolas losing his eyes, Aragon getting tired after the second kill, gandalf doesn't even exist for example.

I greatly dissagree with you.

AS many do on forums, you are taking my point out of context. I know its D & D and I know its fantasy, I am talking about the Art styling the attitude of the game, The feel. My point is what i say it is, not what you say it is.


and I know you disagree. its ok. There are lot of gamers that like the high fantasy cartoon stuff. Look at WoW. This game stands out amongst the crowd cause its not that. Obviously its fantasy, but its the type of fantasy you can related to , that seems real. The first Star Wars and the Lord of the Ring films were great examples of this "feel". Fantasy but not over the top. they took themselves serious in a fantasy world and we need more of that.

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Originally Posted by Tabuk
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
Originally Posted by Tabuk
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
They could add a stamina point system which is really just spell slots, but for physical. Physical can be the three categories: slashing, blunt, pierce. Some characters can simply use multi resources like superior die and ki for the more potent abilites. Keep the simple subclasses for new players but rework or simply add new subclasses with higher complexity. The animations and sound effects are the biggest things that need work. Needs kendo, fencing, and martial arts influencing. Exaggerated of course. It is fantasy after all.

Magic still with have fire, ice, lighting, radiant, necro, etc. So no it wont be homogenize the classes. Caster lovers will still complain I can imagine.

I LOVE the simple realistic animations and sound effects this game has. It gives it a less cartoon and more realistic feel, like you can imagine this world being real, and your not just watching a animated tv program.

If they take your advice and make it all exaggerated and loud, they will ruin this game from a masterpiece to just another video game, like so many other games out there.

Realistic in dnd? You want a documentary? I want fantasy which is Dnd. Consistency is important and "realistic" is an unnecessary nerf and eye sore to a fantasy franchise. Its like legolas losing his eyes, Aragon getting tired after the second kill, gandalf doesn't even exist for example.

I greatly dissagree with you.

AS many do on forums, you are taking my point out of context. I know its D & D and I know its fantasy, I am talking about the Art styling the attitude of the game, The feel. My point is what i say it is, not what you say it is.


and I know you disagree. its ok. There are lot of gamers that like the high fantasy cartoon stuff. Look at WoW. This game stands out amongst the crowd cause its not that. Obviously its fantasy, but its the type of fantasy you can related to , that seems real. The first Star Wars and the Lord of the Ring films were great examples of this "feel". Fantasy but not over the top. they took themselves serious in a fantasy world and we need more of that.

I'm not talking about other people. I'm talking about you and your opinion. Of course your point comes from you. No need to be redundant. Relating to fantasy is what you want right? Why nerf fantasy to your standards instead of elevating to higher standards. Don't pull things to your mundane. Expand your imagination to reach new heights.

What is fantasy if you shackle it to the mundane? We need more fantastical, not more mundane. Expanding your limits is what life is about. Gonna fight you on this lol. The world is mundane enough. Can't see fantasy fall too.

Edit: Oh and lotr and star wars are faaaaaar more fantastical than you think. Just not the live action movies obviously. Ghost sith that eat planets or dragons big enough to cover the sky and multiple mountains and towers only to be smited by an angel like being (gandalfs race without the shackles).

Last edited by Aishaddai; 07/04/21 05:07 PM.
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This is something 1st and 2nd edition got right -- if you want your fighters to do things that mages normally do without destroying the class you give the fighter armor and weapons that have spell like effects.

What about helmet full of diamonds can be used to casts fireballs? Leather armor that allows you to cast misty step? A sword that duplicates the effect of vampric touch? And so on.

But, in any case, the weapons master is the strongest class in the game right now. Awfully hard to beat that Gith patrol without Lae'zel in the party . . .

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@Tabuk don't forget to add "of the Forgotten Realm" or something like that after you wrote about "reality" on this forum. This usually avoid such useless discussion.

I 100% agree with you. A battlemaster learn "skills". A champion learn something else and an eldricht knight something else. I like that everyone doesn't know/learn tons of special move.

Maybe they could add dipping sword on candles or eating pigs head during combat. It's okay, it's a fantasy setting smile

Last edited by Maximuuus; 07/04/21 05:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Baltrazar
Mages have a huge number of spells that they can use in battle, respectively, they also have a lot of variations of actions each turn.
But non-casters are limited to very few and uninteresting abilities. I know that you are bound by the rules of the board game, but if you decide to add more active skills to non-casters, I will be very grateful. A variety of abilities is a variety in the gameplay.
One thing that makes full spellcasters seem more powerful than they should be is the lack of a proper resting mechanic. The game allows unlimited rests, if we had an option for the one long rest per day only, then spell slots would need to be conserved and other classes would have more of a chance to shine.

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Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by Baltrazar
Mages have a huge number of spells that they can use in battle, respectively, they also have a lot of variations of actions each turn.
But non-casters are limited to very few and uninteresting abilities. I know that you are bound by the rules of the board game, but if you decide to add more active skills to non-casters, I will be very grateful. A variety of abilities is a variety in the gameplay.
One thing that makes full spellcasters seem more powerful than they should be is the lack of a proper resting mechanic. The game allows unlimited rests, if we had an option for the one long rest per day only, then spell slots would need to be conserved and other classes would have more of a chance to shine.


lol what? Spellcasters are the weakest classes in EA, how are people making these statements unchallenged?

Do people really believe fighter and dual wield martial playstyles are currently weaker than spellcasting?

And what's so varied about spellcasting? Warlocks spam eldritch blast and nothing else, and Wizards spam magic missiles when not using hex+ray of flame because of general poor spellcaster hit rates. Druid just spams Moonbeam. Cleric spams inflict wounds in between maintaining bless.

Remind me exactly how that is any more varied than Lazael pulling out her greatsword or heavy crossbow, dipping in fire or poisoning the weapon, and then having the option of pin down, pushing attack, frightening attack, or cleave? Martial classes legit have far more gameplay variety than casters currently do because outside 1-2 spells per class the other spells are garbage, spell slots create a competition by spells for the same limited resource, and concentration makes sure you can only have one utility spell active.

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Originally Posted by Zenith
lol what? Spellcasters are the weakest classes in EA, how are people making these statements unchallenged?

Do people really believe fighter and dual wield martial playstyles are currently weaker than spellcasting?

And what's so varied about spellcasting? Warlocks spam eldritch blast and nothing else, and Wizards spam magic missiles when not using hex+ray of flame because of general poor spellcaster hit rates. Druid just spams Moonbeam. Cleric spams inflict wounds in between maintaining bless.
Just because you play spellcasters this way doesn't mean everyone does. I have experimented with different spells; some I don't use anymore, because for now it is too cheesy (cloud fog & pass without trace), some I limit (flame sphere to only when the enemy has a clear view of the party), but in general I prefer disabling spells and aoes. E. g. last fight against the hag Gale managed to keep her down with grease, last fight against the patrol as soon as their hp was brought down into the range, Gale and Astarion started knocking them out with sleep. On other playthroughs I've used different spell & ability combinations. Otherwise, battles get too repetitive for me.

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Zenith does have a point.

I'd phrase it more like this:
  • Battlemaster does have meaningful choices to make, ranger doesn't really, and rogue is lacking compared to 5e RAW.
  • Dip as described lets the player add improvised weapon damage to martial attacks.
  • Fighter in heavy armor can sneak just as well as a rogue can.
  • Martial classes being able to use spell scrolls gives them more flexibility than cleric or wizard in Patch 4. (i.e. they can do cleric things and their own class set)
  • Also current game mechanics limit player choice for casters (fog cloud being bugged, high ground and low ground forcing the player to take their caster out of position or always use Magic Missile or Shatter).


Overall Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight are in a really good spot, while rogue, cleric, and wizard are lacking. (Relatively speaking, ignoring game cheese)
Fighter and Ranger can currently do everything a rogue, wizard, and cleric can with more.

To make the game more fun
I will say rogue needs some quality of life improvements. Ideally it would be adding a clanking sound to heavy armor and metal medium armor that enemies can detect (to correct how stealth should work). Limit backstab to the rogue class or melee dex weapons. Lastly only Rogue should be able to disengage or hide as a bonus action. It is definitely a meaningful choice use an action to disengage.

Limit spell scrolls to the classes that can use that school of magic.

Remove low ground disadvantage. Remove High ground advantage. (This would add in more strategic choice).
Add in cover variant, being on a high elevation by at least 10 feet gives +2AC (Attacks aimed at an enemy greater than 10 feet up have a -2 to hit). Positioning a character behind another party member will give that character +2AC. (Attacks aimed at a character behind another would have a -2 to hit.)

Add in proper reactions and add in readied actions. (Readied actions would give all classes more strategic choice).

Add in climbing speed and consider steep inclines rough terrain.

...Essentially the game needs what makes D&D 5e fun.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Zenith does have a point.

I'd phrase it more like this:
  • Battlemaster does have meaningful choices to make, ranger doesn't really, and rogue is lacking compared to 5e RAW.
  • Dip as described lets the player add improvised weapon damage to martial attacks.
  • Fighter in heavy armor can sneak just as well as a rogue can.
  • Martial classes being able to use spell scrolls gives them more flexibility than cleric or wizard in Patch 4. (i.e. they can do cleric things and their own class set)
  • Also current game mechanics limit player choice for casters (fog cloud being bugged, high ground and low ground forcing the player to take their caster out of position or always use Magic Missile or Shatter).


Overall Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight are in a really good spot, while rogue, cleric, and wizard are lacking. (Relatively speaking, ignoring game cheese) -snip-
Good post, though I don't think the Battlemaster is in a good spot: Menacing Strike is way too powerful. It's basically an instant win button if you're facing a single powerful enemy.
A "Frightened" creature should just have disadvantage on attack rolls and can't move closer to its source of fear. Larian's current implementation of "can take no actions and must run away from the source of fear, provoking and AoOs" is too strong for an ability that can be used basically every turn (superiority die refresh on short rest).

Unfortunately, I submitted a feedback report to Larian about this ability, and they responded that "the condition has been altered for Baldur's Gate 3." So it looks like it is here to stay...

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