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The dice system is terrible
How is it possible that my character with 16 charisma and +5 persuasion cannot persuade anyone of anything with the first attempt? Even with second attempt, even with sixth attempt.

Sometimes it seems to me that the whole dice system is just scripted.

For example, when at the beginning of the game we remove the brain from a half-dead person so that the brain turns into a monster, during this scene dice roll is always higher than the required value.
But try talk to Kagha so that she let thief girl to go, damn it, I never succeeded in the first attempt to roll a dice by a number more than the required value.
Or to smash parasite from eye of dead man on road. I have 16 constitution, but it shows that i need to roll 10, but i roll 2. WITH CON 16??? and buff from Shadowheart i get just 2, 4, 7. Really??? WTF???

And the same situation in many dialogues. Especially noticeable in dialogues and actions in which you get the approval of companions. If it's normal dialogue that doesn't affect anything, then dice rolls are always great.

The funny thing is that in many cases, when I need to roll for medicine, magic or discernment, which I have -1 it works with the first attempt. And +5 persuasion doesn't work right with the first attempt.

It doesn't matter how much charisma you have, +12 or +16, it doesn't affect anything. And sometimes it was easier for me to play as warrior with +12 charisma in terms of dialogues.

I would make a confirmation, but it's too much for me to go over everything again. Maybe I'll do it a little later.

Last edited by AntZet; 07/04/21 10:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by AntZet
The dice system is terrible
How is it possible that my character with 16 charisma and +5 persuasion cannot persuade anyone of anything with the first attempt? Even with second attempt, even with sixth attempt.

Sometimes it seems to me that the whole dice system is just scripted.

For example, when at the beginning of the game we remove the brain from a half-dead person so that the brain turns into a monster, during this scene dice roll is always higher than the required value.
But try talk to Kagha so that she let thief girl to go, damn it, I never succeeded in the first attempt to roll a dice by a number more than the required value.
Or to smash parasite from eye of dead man on road. I have 16 constitution, but it shows that i need to roll 10, but i roll 2. WITH CON 16??? and buff from Shadowheart i get just 2, 4, 7. Really??? WTF???

And the same situation in many dialogues. Especially noticeable in dialogues and actions in which you get the approval of companions. If it's normal dialogue that doesn't affect anything, then dice rolls are always great.

The funny thing is that in many cases, when I need to roll for medicine, magic or discernment, which I have -1 it works with the first attempt. And +5 persuasion doesn't work right with the first attempt.

It doesn't matter how much charisma you have, +12 or +16, it doesn't affect anything. And sometimes it was easier for me to play as warrior with +12 charisma in terms of dialogues.

I would make a confirmation, but it's too much for me to go over everything again. Maybe I'll do it a little later.

Random means random. The problem that people don't understand from bad luck or randomness is that the guy with the 5% probability to fall on his ass and land on a cactus doesn't stop to think "well, I guess I was that 5%". The only thing we are naturally wired as human beings is to emphasize the bad case scenarios. It doesn't matter if I managed to free the brain from the skull if my 7 roll to save the child from Kagha or convince her to turn on the Shadow Druids failed.

That's why the dice system will always leave a pretty large amount of people unhappy. A main appeal of a videogame is to have control over outcomes by knowing what input you made.

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Most of the dialogue issues could be fixed simply by increasing the modifiers x2.
This would make a character who specializes in something have a much better chance of success.
Still it wouldnt be 100%, but it would feel that the character being built really matters and not only rng.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 08/04/21 01:00 AM.
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There's seriously a thread two up about dice rolling...

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Originally Posted by Zenith
Random means random. .

I have nothing against random. But damn there should be difference between character with charisma 12 and 16. But there is no difference.
It very strange that very often i have success in rolling dice for value that i need when i have -1, but it difficult to get necessary value with +5 persuasion

Last edited by AntZet; 08/04/21 05:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by AntZet
Originally Posted by Zenith
Random means random. .

I have nothing against random. But damn there should be difference between character with charisma 12 and 16. But there is no difference.
It very strange that very often i have success in rolling dice for value that i need when i have -1, but it diffucult to get necessary value with +5 persuasion


But there is a difference. Roll a dwarf vs. Tiefling/half-elf. The dialogue checks are notable. You just don't remember the pass streaks compared to the fail streaks because we always tend to remember the bad instances.

I won an even amount of games in League of Legends as I lost, but I mostly just remember the trolls and inters who sunk my games, not the games where my team didn't have the trolls. It's just how we're wired. Just do a run, write down the pass/fail check amounts, and if you have enough of a sample size, you'll see charisma does make a difference.

The tadpole even gives you a ton of opportunities to bypass the RNG if you don't object to long rests per tadpole use.

I hate the dice and would like to see dice based design for this game gone, but that doesn't mean that the dice isn't working as advertised. It is doing just that. As long as the dice exist, no matter how good your character is at a check, there will be those 2 rolls on a 4 dice roll check that piss the living hell off of you anyways.

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Originally Posted by AntZet
Sometimes it seems to me that the whole dice system is just scripted.

For example, when at the beginning of the game we remove the brain from a half-dead person so that the brain turns into a monster, during this scene dice roll is always higher than the required value.


Several of my characters failed those rolls. If you fail the roll to free it, your are left with the choice to destroy or leave it. If you fail the roll to cripple it, it turns hostile.

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Originally Posted by Zenith
You just don't remember the pass streaks compared to the fail streaks because we always tend to remember the bad instances.

Trust me, I remember both good and bad rolls. Because I try to play with different classes and alternately play either a warrior with 12 Charisma, or a rogue with 16 charisma. And it is much more difficult to get the necessary results in dialogues with rogue.
It's just dissapointing that i spent several skill points in vain and spent several hours playing rogue to understand that +2 persuasion or +5 persuation have no difference.

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Im not understanding the issue. Charisma 12 provides +1 to Persuade. Charisma 16 provides +3. If you are proficient, add +2.

So there is a big difference. A difficulty 15 Persuade roll will mean you need to roll a 10 or higher if you have Charisma 16 and are proficient. A 50% chance. A Charisma 12 with no proficiency means you need a 14 or higher. 30% chance.

As you get to higher levels, proficiency bonus goes up, so the higher the level the more your proficiency really matters.

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Guess you've never heard of D&D
16 persuasion means sweet jack all, you are dealing with a 20 base system and you are crying over a difference of +2
there is a reason why party groups have a 'face' - a character who has +5 + proficient + bonuses - you can get scores of up to 30+ rolls in the traditional game

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Originally Posted by digimbyte
Guess you've never heard of D&D
16 persuasion means sweet jack all, you are dealing with a 20 base system and you are crying over a difference of +2
there is a reason why party groups have a 'face' - a character who has +5 + proficient + bonuses - you can get scores of up to 30+ rolls in the traditional game

Man, i am telling that i made two characters - first 12 charisma, +1 persuasion (or +2, i dont remember i deleted saves) and another one 16 charisma, and +5 persuasion. And there is no damn difference between them.
If i make 16 strength, i see result - my character jumps for longer distance. But why i get more fails with +5 persuasion than with +1/+2 persuasion.

And i understand what it is D&D system. I'am just saying why there is no damn difference. And sometimes to persuade with charisma 12, +1 persuasion much more easier.

Last edited by AntZet; 09/04/21 06:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by AntZet
And i understand what it is D&D system. I'am just saying why there is no damn difference.
If you were actualy understanding D&D system ... you would know there is difference.

There is no "randomness" in jumping ...
Personaly i would like to see some easy (dif. 5-7) rolls for sometimes falling prone, especialy when we jump at the edge of our jump raidus ... but there is none, therefore you allways sucess ... and therefore you imediatly see difference.

But persuation rolls are random ...
Your 12cha would fail, if you roll anything between 1-16 ... You rolled 17-20, therefore you were lucky.
Your 16cha would fail, if you roll anything between 1-13 ... You rolled 1-13, therefore you were just unlucky, thats all.
But you would sucess in second example if you roll 14-20 ... as you can see, if you do the math, your chances are almost doubled (4/20 vs. 6/20) and that is the difference. wink Yet that is all it is, a chance. smile

The difference that you claim is not there is in long run ...
Your 12cha hero will probably be failing more often, than your 16cha hero ...
The world is not suppose to work like "i have 20 charisma, now i persuate anyone anywhere, and anytime into anything" ... and thank gods it does not. :-/

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 09/04/21 07:46 AM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by AntZet
And i understand what it is D&D system. I'am just saying why there is no damn difference.
If you were actualy understanding D&D system ... you would know there is difference.

There is no "randomness" in jumping ...
Personaly i would like to see some easy (dif. 5-7) rolls for sometimes falling prone, especialy when we jump at the edge of our jump raidus ... but there is none, therefore you allways sucess ... and therefore you imediatly see difference.

But persuation rolls are random ...
Your 12cha would fail, if you roll anything between 1-16 ... You rolled 17-20, therefore you were lucky.
Your 16cha would fail, if you roll anything between 1-13 ... You rolled 1-13, therefore you were just unlucky, thats all.
But you would sucess in second example if you roll 14-20 ... as you can see, if you do the math, your chances are almost doubled (4/20 vs. 6/20) and that is the difference. wink Yet that is all it is, a chance. smile

The difference that you claim is not there is in long run ...
Your 12cha hero will probably be failing more often, than your 16cha hero ...
The world is not suppose to work like "i have 20 charisma, now i persuate anyone anywhere, and anytime into anything" ... and thank gods it does not. :-/

I wouldn't say. If we consider that both characters have proficiency, in this case the difference between someone who has 12 char and 16 char is only +2. This is only a 10% increase in the chance of success.

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Originally Posted by AntZet
And there is no damn difference between them.
There is approximately 10% difference between them. That means that your 16 CHA character will pass about 1 check in 10 more than your 12 CHA character. That's not a massive margin but it is real margin. The DC for the brain is 10 plus your modifiers. The DC to persuade Kagha is 15 plus your modifiers. It's a 100% harder check so it fails twice as often. DnD is often about stacking the deck. The Guidance buff fro Shadowheart is strong, but not massively so. If you take the Enhance Attribute spell for her at level 2 you can give yourself Advantage on Charisma checks for a full day as long as she has Concentration, which allows you to roll 2 dice and pick the best one. That is a much stronger buff; plus you can use the Harper amulet on another character and have Guidance up as well. Do that and a 25% roll becomes a 95% roll.

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Regardless of the actual difference between X and Y character, it would be nice if there were degrees of success in (at least some) conversations.

Fail by 5+: worst outcome
Fail by 1-4: maybe you can attempt the check again with a different character
Succeed by 0-4: normal success
Succeed by 5+: Great Success, you get an extra quest reward or the NPC is more friendly and gives you more info, etc

This would make it feel much more like any persuasion bonus you have actually made a difference.

Also, Larian needs to change the system to show your roll plus bonuses instead of subtracting your bonuses from the DC. This way you can visually see the effects of your high skills.


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